$5 to any1 who cites 1 finals team with 2 start Sf

[Lascar78]

And being #2 on blocks for the year is perfectly normal for a SF? Lol

Blocks on the season:

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 220 SF/PF

Josh Smith , ATL 208 SF/PF

Elton Brand , LAC 201 PF

Marcus Camby , DEN 184 C

Ben Wallace , DET 181 C

Alonzo Mourning , MIA 173 C

Tim Duncan , SAS 162 PF/C

Samuel Dalembert , PHI 160 C

Pau Gasol , MEM 153 PF

Eddie Griffin , MIN 148 C

The only other guy in the top 10 remotely close to a SF is kirilenko, who much like Smoove is a SF/PF who gets a lot of blocks, and his position is determined by the other players in the team and prefers facing the basket on offense. Your "2 SF" question is meant to be a comparison to the potential of Marvin/Smith, and Smith could easily play the PF role as much as Rodman did.

Whatever you consider Rodman, Smith can be the same. Rodman could guard both positions, as can Smith, although both are better on PF's. Smith is bigger. Rodman grabbed boards because on offense he didn't even remotely think of scoring, all he was doing was waiting for the shot and positioning himself for the rebound. He didn't have the offense of a PF. If you told Smith to stop looking for his offense, he could guard PF's very well, get a lot more blocks than Rodman, and a lot of boards too. Rodman was not bigger, and he did not have any special PF skills that Smith doesn't. He was a freaky rebounder, like Smith is a freaky shot blocker, both skills that occur in the post. Smith also does better on offense against PF's because he can draw them out of the paint and either shoot jumpers over them or go by them.

They are both SF/PF. Neither one is your prototype Tim Duncan PF overwhelming guys with height and fancy post moves.

If Smith is such a natural SF, why was his PER 20.5 at the PF, yet only 16.0 at the SF. That's more than 25%. Haven't you been arguing that if one optioni is 25% better we should go with it? If so, Smith should start at the SF next year

[tmac13]

Walter, you are approaching KB in you fantasy world, Rodman did play the 3 in Detroit and San Antonio..

[Lascar78]

Quote:

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"Playing" Pf doesn't make you one.

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Then why did you attempt to prove that Rodman by posting a quote that said that Rodman "played" the PF?

Quote:

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I can objectively prove that MW and JS don't resemble NBA power forwards in skill and, particularly the top ten variety, in height and weight.

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Rodman was shorter and lighter than Smith. So if he is a PF by height and weight, surely Smith is too. As far as skill, Rodman had no PF skill that Smith doesn't have other than better rebounding. And that is offset by Smith's better shot blocking. Skillwise, Smith has as much PF skill as Rodman

[Lascar78]

Obviously that was supposed to read

That's more than 25%. Haven't you been arguing that if one option is 25% better we should go with it? If so, Smith should start at the PF next year

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

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And being #2 on blocks for the year is perfectly normal for a SF? Lol

Blocks on the season:

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 220

SF/PF

Josh Smith , ATL 208

SF/PF

Elton Brand , LAC 201

PF

Marcus Camby , DEN 184

C

Ben Wallace , DET 181

C

Alonzo Mourning , MIA 173

C

Tim Duncan , SAS 162

PF/C

Samuel Dalembert , PHI 160

C

Pau Gasol , MEM 153

PF

Eddie Griffin , MIN 148

C

The only other guy in the top 10 remotely close to a SF is kirilenko, who much like Smoove is a SF/PF who gets a lot of blocks, and his position is determined by the other players in the team and prefers facing the basket on offense. Your "2 SF" question is meant to be a comparison to the potential of Marvin/Smith, and Smith could easily play the PF role as much as Rodman did.

Whatever you consider Rodman, Smith can be the same. Rodman could guard both positions, as can Smith, although both are better on PF's. Smith is bigger. Rodman grabbed boards because on offense he didn't even remotely think of scoring, all he was doing was waiting for the shot and positioning himself for the rebound. He didn't have the offense of a PF. If you told Smith to stop looking for his offense, he could guard PF's very well, get a lot more blocks than Rodman, and a lot of boards too. Rodman was not bigger, and he did not have any special PF skills that Smith doesn't. He was a freaky rebounder, like Smith is a freaky shot blocker, both skills that occur in the post. Smith also does better on offense against PF's because he can draw them out of the paint and either shoot jumpers over them or go by them.

They are both SF/PF. Neither one is your prototype Tim Duncan PF overwhelming guys with height and fancy post moves.

If Smith is such a natural SF, why was his PER 20.5 at the PF, yet only 16.0 at the SF. That's more than

25%

. Haven't you been arguing that if one optioni is 25% better we should go with it? If so, Smith should start at the SF next year

---

[RAHMOR]

Quote:

---

And being #2 on blocks for the year is perfectly normal for a SF? Lol

Blocks on the season:

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 220 SF/PF

Josh Smith , ATL 208 SF/PF

Elton Brand , LAC 201 PF

Marcus Camby , DEN 184 C

Ben Wallace , DET 181 C

Alonzo Mourning , MIA 173 C

Tim Duncan , SAS 162 PF/C

Samuel Dalembert , PHI 160 C

Pau Gasol , MEM 153 PF

Eddie Griffin , MIN 148 C

The only other guy in the top 10 remotely close to a SF is kirilenko, who much like Smoove is a SF/PF who gets a lot of blocks, and his position is determined by the other players in the team and prefers facing the basket on offense. Your "2 SF" question is meant to be a comparison to the potential of Marvin/Smith, and Smith could easily play the PF role as much as Rodman did.

Whatever you consider Rodman, Smith can be the same. Rodman could guard both positions, as can Smith, although both are better on PF's. Smith is bigger. Rodman grabbed boards because on offense he didn't even remotely think of scoring, all he was doing was waiting for the shot and positioning himself for the rebound. He didn't have the offense of a PF. If you told Smith to stop looking for his offense, he could guard PF's very well, get a lot more blocks than Rodman, and a lot of boards too. Rodman was not bigger, and he did not have any special PF skills that Smith doesn't. He was a freaky rebounder, like Smith is a freaky shot blocker, both skills that occur in the post. Smith also does better on offense against PF's because he can draw them out of the paint and either shoot jumpers over them or go by them.

They are both SF/PF. Neither one is your prototype Tim Duncan PF overwhelming guys with height and fancy post moves.

If Smith is such a natural SF, why was his PER 20.5 at the PF, yet only 16.0 at the SF. That's more than 25%. Haven't you been arguing that if one optioni is 25% better we should go with it? If so, Smith should start at the SF next year

---

Kudos on this one Lascar.

[cyman3]

HEY WALTER,

if the SUNS go to the NBA FINALS... can i get that $5? lol

Diaw is no dominating center... hell, hes not even a CENTER. And the SUNS have atleaset 3 starting SFs. lol

so, does the SUNS meet your criteria?

[Guest Walter]

By being a Pf.

Quote:

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Skillwise, Smith has as much PF skill as Rodman

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Not by the time Rodman was playing Pf for Chicago. That is the discussion here, right? He was in his early-mid 30s then. He NEVER played, nor was he a Sf then! NEVER! In fact, the two years prior with the spurs he played Pf between Sean Elliot and David Robinson. Not only was he "playing" at Pf, he was averaging 16-18 RPG and shooting 57% from the field! Good lord man those do not resemble a Sf playing Pf numbers! While never an offensive player, he had a vast many more post skills in terms of defensive positioning, physical play, footwork, rebounding technique, than JS does and infinitely much more desire to play the post than Josh Smith!

And 15+ RPG during his stay with Chicago is never offset by 2.5 BPG. 15 RPG allows for 15 more posessions. 2.5 BPG allows for perhaps 1.5 (as once a block occurs the ball isn't in anyone's posession). Hmmm? 15 vs 1.5. I'll take the dominant rebounder over the very good shot blocker anyday.

[Guest Walter]

Even though I see them as a lousy framework for any team without a coach like D'antoni and an MVP PG, they most certainly reflect a Sf playing Pf (without a center, true or otherwise).

W

[tmac13]

He played half a season between DRob and Elliot..That was his 2nd season with the Spurs..Rodman was suspended for large parts of the year for being himself..The 1st year he was in San Antonio he was traded for Elliot..Elliot came back to the spurs the next year..

[Yeti]

No, I was in Portland. Every house had a Blazers poster or sticker in their window - it was incredible. I think Hawksfanatic wins. Duckworth was certainly NOT dominant. The team was Clyde, Uncle Cliffie, and Buck. Kind of like JJ, Marvin, and Josh. Chilz can play for Kersey. All we need is a Terry Porter.

I think you need to pay up Diesel.

[Popeye]

Diesel and Walter wrong again for how many time only god knows.

My sig that Iman posted is being realized.

[Diesel]

The old Pistons...

In Year 1 (championship Year 1 that is)

Rodman didn't start. Mahorn was the starting Pf.

Aguire was the starting Sf..

Mahorn was the starting PF first year.

Rodman backed up Pf.

In the second year....

Mahorn was picked up by the Timberwolves the second year.

James Edwards (Buddha) became a starter

Aguire became a 6th man.

Rodman started at Sf.

Rodman played Pf for about 95% of his career. I would call him a Pf.

[tmac13]

Nope..Rodman play the sf 95 percent of the time with the Pistons and 50 percent of the time with the Spurs...He was never a fulltime 4 until he went to the Bulls.

[Diesel]

Rodman did not play Sf until 1989-1990 season. He was BU PF before that.

The only reason he played Sf was because Edwards was a good match for Lambeer (like Mahorn was) and Aguire was not as good defensively as Rodman.

He didn't play Sf for the Spurs...

DelNegro/Anderson/Ellis/Rodman/Robinson.

Better yet.... if Rodman didn't play starting PF for the Spurs, who did? If you say JR Reid, I'm going to look to have your membership revoked...

[macdaddy]

Its obvious from this thread why BK thinks he knows more than everybody else.

[tmac13]

Terry Cummings, JR Reid, and Antoine Carr split time there with Rodman also getting time ...As far Detroit goes, Rodman played teh 3 his entire time there..Go look it up.

[AHF]

Rodman was definitely a combo forward whose primary abilities were rebounding and playing hardnosed, irritating defense. When playing on a team with a deep frontcourt in the Pistons, he started at SF and won the DPOY award as a small forward.

When he went to teams with excellent small forwards and lacking impact power forwards he transitioned primarily and eventually exclusively to the PF role in SA and CHI. He wasn't any bigger than Josh Smith and certainly didn't have a better post offensive game than Josh. He was absolutely a better rebounder but was still a combo forward for his career and could have played SF for either SA or CHI if they had good PFs instead of good SFs. However, by the time he hit Chi Rodman was fully in his "rebound above all else" phase of his career and he didn't want to be anywhere but the post on either side of the ball so he could maximize his rebounding numbers.

As for whether he "never" guarded small forwards - the Sporting News notes to the contrary that Rodman "could throw a net over shooting guards, small forwards, power forward and centers."

[exodus]

Quote:

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Its obvious from this thread why BK thinks he knows more than everybody else.

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[Diesel]

No sir..

Rodman was the starting PF.. Plain and simple.

He was brought there to bring toughness, rebounds, and a strong Pf and that's what he did.

Rodman didn't play Sf.

In fact, San Antonio moved Old man Dale Ellis from SG to Sf to cover for the loss of Elliot..

Now... Let me pull up some proof like I always do...

Item #1..

Quote:

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The Spurs are a team that desperately needs a point guard. They

have let both Rod Strickland and Avery Johnson go through Free Agency

to other teams. This year, they had an excellent regular season, but

a lackluster playoff performance. This prompted calls for the heads

of GM Bob Bass and Head Coach John Lucas. David Robinson had his best

season and finished second to Hakeem Olajuwon in the MVP voting.

Still, the team's fatal flaws were not enough offense aside from

Robinson and Ellis, and no strong presence in the back court, both

offensively and defensively.

Center:

=======

David Robinson was the sole major contributor at Center.

Having is best season ever, he was able to extend his offensive game.

This featured David, taking jumpers, 3ptrs, and making pinpoint passes

inside. All this much reminiscent of a 'point center'. Coupled with

his quickness, this new scheme allowed him to lead the NBA in scoring,

and his team in assists. Still, David often 'dissapeared' during

games, especially evident during the playoffs. Nevertheless, he has

been more focused, and 'come to play' and 'shown up' this year more

than any other. David still needs to work on some post moves, and

also in defending the post. I believe he still relies a bit too much

on his quickness (which will fade away as time progresses). Also,

David wasn't able to effectively guard some of the bigger centers in

the games. Both things I think he could improve upon without making

significant physical changes, and without changing his game

dramatically. I really believe David is one of the most gifted

atheletes to ever enter the NBA, but I am still waiting for him to

'take over' on a more consistent basis during games. Not just once

every blue moon, but night in and night out. Hopefully, all this, and

an excellent playoff performance will come next year.

Forwards:

=========

Dennis Rodman was one of the new additions this year to the

Spurs. He brought toughness, both mental and physical, as well as

great rebounding help, and took alot of pressure of David in quite a

few respects. The Spurs had been known as a 'soft' team, Rodman not

only played the role of enforcer, he emotionally charged the team.

This year did have his low points for Dennis. Among them, an headbutt

incident in Chicago, an incident in Detroit with Elliott, and perhaps

most shameful, and incident with his coach during the playoffs.

Still, I think Dennis was a positive, and I love what he brings to the

game. Although Dennis is getting up there in years, I see him being

at relatively the same level for atleast another couple of years,

simply based on the fact that he rarely uses pure quickness to do his

jobs. Rather he relies on determination and strength.

Antoine Carr was most helpful for the Spurs this season.

Although he has a suspect rebounding ratio, he played some great

defense against some of the bigger centers in the NBA. He showed his

respectable jumper from the outside. There has been much speculation

that Carr will leave San Antonio via free agency this year.

It looks as though if Terry Cummings career with the Spurs

will end this year. Terry has never really recoverd from the knee

injury suffered during a pickup game almost two years ago. He showed

some flashes of his former self this year. But clearly he just

doesn't have it physically anymore and is getting up there in age. It

looks as though he will retire this year.

J.R. Reid played both forward spots for the Spurs.

I love his

offensive skills, but he really needs to learn to play some D. He

provided some critical O for the Spurs at many occasions. I really

think that JR has been dealt with less than fairly during his tenure

in the NBA. First, Charlotte made him play center, where he was

schooled night in and night out by just about everyone in the NBA.

Second, he, IMHO never got alot of PT here in San Antonio, a team that

was dying for offense. He can be streaky at times, but I really think

this guy can be a starter.

Guards:

=======

This is clearly the weak point for the Spurs. The lacked both

defense and offense at both guard spots.

Dale Ellis, although he spent major time at SF,

is still

viewed by me as a guard. Dale's game is simply taking the shot. He

has very limited movement, to create shots for himself or others.

Thus, he relies on outlets from the inside, or pinpoint passes on the

fast break for his offense. He was one of two consistent offensive

threats along with Dave this year. Still, his defense is quite

suspect, and I would rather see him as a 6th man. Nevertheless, Ellis

had one of his better seasons, due much in part to his preseason

workouts with Coach Lucas.

Willie Anderson played both guard spots for the Spurs. A

multi- dimensional player. He can shoot from the outside, create for

himself or his teammates, and dish off properly. Willie also has a

knack for the clutch shot, witness last years playoffs. Anderson has

seemed to recover from the injury problems that had plagued him for

the last couple of years.

Vinny Del Negro played point guard for the Spurs for much of

the season. Although I like Vinny's outside touch, he lacks a quick

step that would allow him to penetrate and create for his teammates.

Furthermore, his limited atheletic ability makes him a liability on

defense. Still, a team cannot IMHO call itself a contender and have

Vinny at the point. The Spurs had one of the worst backcourts in the

league, and opponents took advantage of that.

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Item 2..

Click.

Quote:

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The Spurs moved to the brand-new Alamodome for the 1993-94 season, and with the change in venue came more changes to the Spurs starting five. Sean Elliott, who had averaged career highs in points (17.2), assists per game (3.8) and three-point percentage (.356) the year before was shipped to the Detroit Pistons for Dennis "the Worm" Rodman.

The Worm; sporting piercings, tatoos and a wide array of hair colors helped the Spurs immediately in the rebounding department; with the team going from last to first in offensive rebounding. The addition of

the eccentric power forward

also helped the Spurs showcase the leagues second best defense, allowing just 94.8 points per game.

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