$5 to any1 who cites 1 finals team with 2 start Sf

[Diesel]

This is almost as bad as Hawkfanatic making up stuff.

San Antonio didn't have a good Sf. They moved Dale Ellis from SG to Sf. They also made willie Anderson a SG... so that Worm could play PF.

What they lacked was a good Pf. They had old man Carr. They had JR "I can't stay in games because I play Dirty" Reid, and they had "old man, Oh my Heart" Terry Cummings. They needed Dennis Rodman to play PF like a fish needed water.

The only reason Dennis Rodman played SF in Detroit is because James Edwards was a better match for Lambeer and Rodman was a better defender than Aguire.

Lambeer was not a post player. To get Post Presence, they either matched him with Mahorn or Edwards. When Rodman first became a piston, he was off the bench with Salley and Johnson. They usually came in together to play C, PF, and SG...

I'm sure Chuck Daly played him there because he didn't have any offensive game and he defended anybody.

When he went to SA, the only reason he wasn't successful was because he had a coach he made the world's dumbest move. He benched Rodman when the Spurs were down 3-2... Because Rodman was late to practice... Don't you remember?

Rodman was a PF about 95% of his career.

[Johnnybravo4]

Calling Rodman strictly a PF is as about inane as calling Boris Diaw a center..or a power forward, but yet he is defending both positions 99% of the time.

Just face the facts Walter. You lost. You had a dumb thread with a bogus premise that has been proven wrong by at least 3 teams. Let it go.

[mrhonline]

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How about $5 for someone that can make a convincing argument that we lost more games because of Josh Smith or Marvin Williams over the fact that we had no interior defense.

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Gotta nominate this as the best argument in the thread.

IOW, it makes little sense to argue over the SF/PF position until a defensive big is brought in. Then, we'll truly see how fit Marvin/Smith are at the 3/4.

[Diesel]

On what basis do you call Rodman a SF..

Help me understand JB..

I know you probably never watched Basketball when Rodman was playing??

You probably have to google Bad Boy?

So what makes you think that Rodman didn't play Pf (strickly)?

[Johnnybravo4]

I guess you have the total inability to read the billion posts before. But if you and Walter want to change the argument fine...Rodman is a PF and Diaw is a Center. And that would make JJ....hey...a point guard!

[exodus]

If that doesn't shut him up nothing will.

[Diesel]

Rodman played ~95% of his time playing as a Pf...

What makes you think he was a Sf??

His height??

If that's your belief, go watch a game.

[Traceman]

Rodman is the CLASSIC example of a guy who started as primarily a SF and later became a PF. He clearly COULD have continued to play SF and been one of the best SFs in the game but he was versatile enough to play primarily PF after he went to a team that NEEDED him to play PF. CHI already had Pippen and Kukoc who could play SF so they needed Rodman to play PF.

It is just like Shawn Marion in PHO. Marion started as a SF and has proven he can play very well there. However, for the last 2 years, he has played PF and averaged 20/12. His success at PF is not just because Amare was out either. Last year he averaged 19/11 playing BESIDE Amare. That said, I have NO doubt that Marion would be a terrfic SF on any team.

If Marion never goes back to SF in Phoenix (or anywhere else for that matter), it doesn't mean that he COULDN'T be successful as a SF anymore, it just means that is where his team needs him to play.

Bottom line, a frontcourt of Rodman, Pippen and Longley certainly meets your criteria of having two undersized guys (or SFs if you like) playing next to a non-dominant Center on a championship team. Of course, you could argue that it took the game's all time greatest player to make that team a champion but the team did 3-peat.

[AHF]

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This is almost as bad as Hawkfanatic making up stuff.

San Antonio didn't have a good Sf. They moved Dale Ellis from SG to Sf. They also made willie Anderson a SG... so that Worm could play PF.

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They had Sean Elliot starting at SF the second year in SA. Check the stats if you think that is made up. More to the point, though, Dale Ellis was a classic perimeter SF who was a top scorer on the Spurs - their second leading scorer the year they acquired Rodman. I guess that was made up too? Ellis easily spent as much of his career at SF as Rodman did at PF. The fact that you are implying he wasn't a good SF for that team is pretty surprising to me.

Bear in mind that they enjoyed an Anderson/Del Fuego combo at SG which was very solid.

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What they lacked was a good Pf. They had old man Carr. They had JR "I can't stay in games because I play Dirty" Reid, and they had "old man, Oh my Heart" Terry Cummings. They needed Dennis Rodman to play PF like a fish needed water.

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Wasn't that my point? That the need at PF was much greater than at SF?

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The only reason Dennis Rodman played SF in Detroit is because James Edwards was a better match for Lambeer and Rodman was a better defender than Aguire.

Lambeer was not a post player. To get Post Presence, they either matched him with Mahorn or Edwards. When Rodman first became a piston, he was off the bench with Salley and Johnson. They usually came in together to play C, PF, and SG...

I'm sure Chuck Daly played him there because he didn't have any offensive game and he defended anybody.

When he went to SA, the only reason he wasn't successful was because he had a coach he made the world's dumbest move. He benched Rodman when the Spurs were down 3-2... Because Rodman was late to practice... Don't you remember?

Rodman was a PF about 95% of his career.

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I'm not sure where your 95% number comes from considering he played fewer than 20 seasons and more than one at SF but Rodman was a combo forward who could succeed at either forward spot and whose skillset more naturally lent itself to playing in the post on offense. On D, it didn't really matter where he played as long as he either could camp under the net or D up a top offensive option for the other team.

[Buzzard]

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Bottom line, a frontcourt of Rodman, Pippen and Longley certainly meets your criteria of having two undersized guys (or SFs if you like) playing next to a non-dominant Center on a championship team. Of course, you could argue that it took the game's all time greatest player to make that team a champion but the team did 3-peat.

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If anyone argues that this front line is not about as small as it gets, they just do not watch basketball and were probably still in diapers when these three were playing together.

Winner by a wide margin...

[Diesel]

I can't believe you come with this...

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They had Sean Elliot starting at SF the second year in SA. Check the stats if you think that is made up.

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They traded Sean Elliot to get Rodman!

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One night late during the 1992–1993 season, he was found sitting in his pickup truck with a loaded shotgun in the Pistons' parking lot. Rodman claimed in one of his two autobiographies that that night was when he killed the old Dennis and let the new Dennis emerge.

In the offseason he was traded to the San Antonio Spurs for Sean Elliott.

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Click.

I don't know AHF. I don't think it's more plain than that. Rodman came into SA as a PF! Why do all this movement, benching Big Dog Carr, Moving Willie Anderson from PG to SG. Moving Dale Ellis from SG to Sf... Why do all this if he could have played Sf?

Because he was a PF!

[Diesel]

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Ellis easily spent as much of his career at SF as Rodman did at PF.

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Dale Ellis (born August 6, 1960 in Marietta, Georgia) was a professional basketball player in the National Basketball Association.

Ellis played shooting guard

for the Dallas Mavericks, Milwaukee Bucks, Seattle Supersonics, San Antonio Spurs, Denver Nuggets, and Charlotte Hornets.

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Click

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The Mavs continued to impress with their firepower. In a March 24 game against Denver, Aguirre scored 24 first-quarter points, finishing the game with 46, while Blackman added 38.

In early April little-used rookie guard Dale Ellis set an NBA record by hitting 8 consecutive three-pointers,

spread over several games.

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Click #2

Plus...

In Seattle.. The big three were: Tom Chambers - Pf, Xavier McDaniels - Sf, Dale Ellis - SG..

In Denver (1996) he played SG..

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. He started the final 20 games of the season at shooting guard and made a total of 51 starts, appearing in all 82 games.

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Click 3

So before and after his stint with the Spurs, he was definitely a SG.. While with the spurs, he was definitely a SG....

However, he switched positions to play Sf...

[Diesel]

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Wasn't that my point? That the need at PF was much greater than at SF?

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No. Your point was that they had a good Sf so they made him a PF.

The truth is that after they traded Elliot, they had NO SF. Imagine, they could have kept their three man rotation at PF and played Worm at Sf and kept everybody else at their original positions... However, they shifted Ellis and Anderson over in order to get Rodman on the floor as a PF...

That's not a lesser need at Sf, that's recognition that Rodman was a PF and that he does his best work around the goal not on the wing.

Dennis Rodman... The best rebounder in the league and you guys believe he did it from the wing???

That's the problem. Half of you don't understand baskeball unless it comes with a controller.

[Diesel]

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. On D, it didn't really matter where he played as long as he either could camp under the net or D up a top offensive option for the other team.

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AHF, I don't take you to be a nintendo basketball person so let me ask you...

How do you become rebound champion if you're not in the post?

Can it be done?

Haven't you noticed that most nonpost players don't get high amount of rebounds??

He won rebounding titles from 18.6 rpg(Detroit) to 15 rpg (Bulls).. Sfs, don't get those kind of rebounds because they are rarely in the defensive position to do it.

[AHF]

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I can't believe you come with this...

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They had Sean Elliot starting at SF the second year in SA. Check the stats if you think that is made up.

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They traded Sean Elliot to get Rodman!

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One night late during the 1992–1993 season, he was found sitting in his pickup truck with a loaded shotgun in the Pistons' parking lot. Rodman claimed in one of his two autobiographies that that night was when he killed the old Dennis and let the new Dennis emerge.

In the offseason he was traded to the San Antonio Spurs for Sean Elliott.

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Click.

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LMAO!!!!!!!!!

Sean Elliot was immediately reacquired by the Spurs when they lost Dale Ellis the following offseason. He played 81 games for the Spurs Rodman's second year with the team. Why didn't you bother to look at the stats like I suggested before going after this one?

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/t...g=n&yr=1994

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Sean Elliott, reacquired from the Detroit Pistons in a trade for draft pick Bill Curley, lit up the scoring charts with an average of 18.1 points per game and drilled 136 of 333 three-pointers for a .408 percentage (18th in the NBA).

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http://www.nba.com/spurs/history/spurs_his...=ArticleList#19

[AHF]

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Ellis easily spent as much of his career at SF as Rodman did at PF.

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Dale Ellis (born August 6, 1960 in Marietta, Georgia) was a professional basketball player in the National Basketball Association.

Ellis played shooting guard

for the Dallas Mavericks, Milwaukee Bucks, Seattle Supersonics, San Antonio Spurs, Denver Nuggets, and Charlotte Hornets.

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Click

You are right on this. Ellis played forward for most of these teams - like the Sonics - but primarily played SG for all of them but the Spurs. Many described him as a guard/forward but he didn't play as much at SF as I remember and not as much as Rodman at PF.

http://espn.go.com/nba/profiles/stats/career/0102.html (Guard/Forward)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketbal...ers/Dale.Ellis/ (Guard/Forward)

http://www.sonicscentral.com/8788.html (Sonics site - Guard/Forward)

Bottomline - he isn't a good comparable for Rodman - he is actually probably an OK comparable to Rodman but you have flip the SG/SF in the analysis to a heavier focus on SG.

[AHF]

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. On D, it didn't really matter where he played as long as he either could camp under the net or D up a top offensive option for the other team.

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AHF, I don't take you to be a nintendo basketball person so let me ask you...

How do you become rebound champion if you're not in the post?

Can it be done?

Haven't you noticed that most nonpost players don't get high amount of rebounds??

He won rebounding titles from 18.6 rpg(Detroit) to 15 rpg (Bulls).. Sfs, don't get those kind of rebounds because they are rarely in the defensive position to do it.

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I don't have a time to if a SF has won a rebounding title but I don't see how we are disagreeing here. Rodman's focus was as much on his numbers as it was on winning and he needed to be in the post to maximize his statistics.

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However, by the time he hit Chi Rodman was fully in his "rebound above all else" phase of his career and he didn't want to be anywhere but the post on either side of the ball so he could maximize his rebounding numbers.

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My point was that he could have been a significant contributor at either position but that he sacrificed a lot of his game to become the rebounder supreme during the his later years and he needed to be in the post on both sides of the ball to win all those rebounding titles.

[AHF]

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Wasn't that my point? That the need at PF was much greater than at SF?

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No. Your point was that they had a good Sf so they made him a PF.

The truth is that after they traded Elliot, they had NO SF. Imagine, they could have kept their three man rotation at PF and played Worm at Sf and kept everybody else at their original positions... However, they shifted Ellis and Anderson over in order to get Rodman on the floor as a PF...

That's not a lesser need at Sf, that's recognition that Rodman was a PF and that he does his best work around the goal not on the wing.

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The Spurs had much better talent at SF with Dale Ellis than they did at PF. He was their second leading scorer for goodness sake. The question is whether they got more bang for their buck running a PG/Anderson/Ellis/Rodman/Robinson lineup or a PG/Ellis/Rodman/JR Reid/Robinson lineup. I think it is obvious that it is the former and not the latter.

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Dennis Rodman... The best rebounder in the league and you guys believe he did it from the wing???

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He did do a great job rebounding at SF but I think I already said his skills transitioned naturally to the PF - particularly on offense - and that he needed to be in the post to maximize his numbers and be the league's great rebounder (as if Hakeem couldn't have matched his numbers by ignoring all offensive responsibilities like he did).

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That's the problem. Half of you don't understand baskeball unless it comes with a controller.

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Rodman played both SF and PF very well and was a combo forward over his career. The only reasons he didn't play more SF as I already mentioned were:

(1) It didn't make sense on any roster with Dale Ellis/Sean Elliot available at SF in SA and with Scottie Pippen available in CHI;

(2) His rebounding skills and numbers were maximized in the post.

Both of those are huge reasons. However, if he could have easily played SF on a Houston's stud non-championship team with a lineup like:

PG

Drexler

Rodman

Barkley

Hakeem

[Diesel]

Most of Rodman's career was during the non-Zone NBA. IF Rodman were to play Sf, most of the time, he would be out on the wing guarding his man. Because he was playing PF and most teams weren't willing to shut down their post game just to get Rodman out of the post, Rodman feasted on Rebounds..

It's that simple.

From Detroit to Chicago Rodman won 7 rebounding titles in a row... ranging from 18.6 rebounds in Detroit to 15 rebounds in Chicago. That's Amazing. #2, nearly impossible for a Sf to do. Rodman was definitely PF.

[Diesel]

But your point was tht San Antonio played Rodman at PF because they had a good Sf.

They traded away their good Sf to get Rodman and put him at PF.

Your theory lost it's value in the first year.

In the second year, Rodman had already established himself as a Rebound title, Defensive POY PF... why would they change his position?

If they had gotten Elliot back or not doesn't matter.. Rodman would have remained PF.

They could have continued the seaosn and put Curley at Sf.. Rodman was still going to be a PF...

Nice attempt to build a strawman there..