The official Hawk squawk perfect team

[Johnnybravo4]

PG: 5'10-6'1 Penetrator (Preferably a white dude)

Season avg 10pts 15apg

SG 6'4-6'6 Outside shooter/defender (But don't shoot too much)

Season avg 15pts 5 reb 6apg

SF 6'7-6'9 Rebounder/Best scorer

Season Avg 25pts 8 reb

PF 6'10-7'0 250-270 Bruiser/Best rebounder

Season Avg 14 pts 12 reb

C 7'0-7'4 260+ lbs Rebounder/Shot blocker/Post scorer

Season avg 18pts 10 rebounds 2.5 bpg

This is the Hawksquawk and NBA Rulebook perfect team.....

but guess what? It doesn't exist! There are 6'9 point guards and 6'9 centers. There are 6'11 PF who play like small forwards. There are centers with no post game and centers with no outside shot. The point is that you have to assemble the players with the greatest amount of skill sets and talent and put them in a system which best utilizes their skills.

The above ideal lineup became obsolite the day that players like Kevin Garnett, Dirk Novitski and Magic Johnson came on the scene. I agree with Billy Knight that there is no such thing as position, only skill sets.

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

...C 7'0-7'4 260+ lbs Rebounder/Shot blocker/Post scorer

Season avg 18pts 10 rebounds 2.5 bpg...

---

That's what I'd like to see! Actually, how long till there's an 8 footer. I'd settle for 7'8" 285

With Big Baby at PF of course...and JSmoove and Marvin sharing minutes at SF (just to get Walter involved).

[Diesel]

There are definite exceptions to height... but height is not what it's about.

It's about skillset...

You totally misunderstand this point. The most important thing is the essential skillset. This is an idea that has been proven time and time again that there's a need to have these essential skillsets.

Let me help you to understand...

Magic Johnson was 6'9... right? He could do more than a regular PG BUT... He was a distributor first and foremost. He was the floor generals of floor generals and thats what made him magic. Him being 6'9 was just an extra treat.

Ben Wallace is 6'9".... right? However, he's more Center than most of the guys playing the position. It's because he has the essential skillset. He owns the post. He knows how to get position. He boxes out. He rebounds. He plays physically. This was never so evident as when the Pistons played the Lakers and Wallace bodied up Shaq.

When Jordan came in the league, one of the knocks on him was that he couldn't shoot. Phil Jackson put Jordan in the triangle because he didn't have to be the ordinary SG but he could play OG.... Notice, that in that triangle there was always a PG who could SHOOT... Paxson, Armstrong, Kerr... None of these guys were true PGs, but they had Pippen for that. Even though the Chicago triangle (based on height) was the most lopsided offense every.. If you looked at skillsets, all were represented.

Back to the Hawks.

Smoove is not a PF. He doesn't possess the essential skillset of a PF. He doesn't play in the post, doesn't have post offense.. HONESTLY, Smoove could be a C sooner than he could be a PF.

MW is not a PF. Like Smoove, he doesn't possess the essential skillset of a PF.

Playing either one at PF detracts from their development at their preferred position.

If you asked Smoove, he'd probably tell you that he would play whatever position kept him on the floor. But does that mean that if we had an opening at PG, you'd play him there?

[Lascar78]

neither one is a pure SF or a pure PF at this point.

Do you see pure PF's be successful with post moves like Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's be successful with a handle as bad as Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's block shots in the post like Smith? Not really.

Do you see pure PF's shoot long jumpers / 3s and slash like Smith? Not really.

They are young players who need to grow and whose final positions is as of yet undetermined. Why is this so hard to understand?

If your personal belief is that they both will eventually become SF's, that's fine, but it's just your guess.

[Packfill]

Quote:

---

neither one is a pure SF or a pure PF at this point.

Do you see pure PF's be successful with post moves like Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's be successful with a handle as bad as Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's block shots in the post like Smith? Not really.

Do you see pure PF's shoot long jumpers / 3s and slash like Smith? Not really.

They are young players who need to grow and whose final positions is as of yet undetermined. Why is this so hard to understand?

If your personal belief is that they both will eventually become SF's, that's fine, but it's just your guess.

---

There is no question that the NBA has evolved in the last dozen years. The biggest change is the arrival of multi-skilled big men (i.e., those guys 6'10" and taller that no longer have to stay within 8 feet of the basket). Garnett is the embodiment of the new generation, but he has a host of contemporaries including Dirk, Rasheed, Odom, Kukoc, Webber, Kirilenko, etc. Essentially, these guys are all supersized small forwards who, because of their size, have the physical ability to play in the post.

There is no question that Josh Smith and Marvin Williams have the potential to develop well rounded skills, but neither have the god-given size to truly bang with the big boys. Not to say the couldn't on a limited basis, but i the grand scheme of things the front office will have to decide how to optimize their talent.

From the games I have seen, both appear to be natural small forwards. You may disagree, but outside of Josh Smith's shot blocking skills is there anything that suggests either of these guys is anything other then a small forward?

[Yeti]

"I'd settle for 7'8" 285"

We had one in 1988 - his name was Jorge Gonzalez. He was 7'-7" and 400 pounds. Couldn't keep up in the NBA and became a pro wrestler.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

neither one is a pure SF or a pure PF at this point.

Do you see pure PF's be successful with post moves like Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's be successful with a handle as bad as Smith's? Not really.

Do you see pure SF's block shots in the post like Smith? Not really.

Do you see pure PF's shoot long jumpers / 3s and slash like Smith? Not really.

They are young players who need to grow and whose final positions is as of yet undetermined. Why is this so hard to understand?

If your personal belief is that they both will eventually become SF's, that's fine, but it's just your guess.

---

Exactly, if Smoove is going to be our SF, he needs to develope better handles and if he going to be our PF, he needs to develope a better post game. He is missing parts of the game required for either position. If he happens to develope both, then the sky is the limit for him.

Marvin needs to do alot work as well; but neither has been around long enough to say this is what they are and they cannot improve on all phases of their game. That would be shame if neither improved after only one and two years in the league. We drafted them because of their natural talent and size; not because they were NBA ready to play at a high level at any position.

[Buzzard]

Playing either one at PF detracts from their development at their preferred position.

Here we go again with Diesel highjacking another positive post on our young players and team as it compares to other positive players of same size and talents.

Go make your on negative post on MWill, Smoove, and team not being able to improve any and all skill sets and leave the positive ones based on their potential talents and ability to develope their skills alone....

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

From the games I have seen, both appear to be natural small forwards. You may disagree, but outside of Josh Smith's shot blocking skills is there anything that suggests either of these guys is anything other then a small forward?

---

First of all, Josh Smith's shot blocking at this point in time seems to be his #1 asset. If he can play the PF and be as intimidating to entire offenses as the best shotblocking centers are, that alone is worth putting him in the post, where he can take advantage of his blocking in man situations and help situations. I think he is huge and still growing, and that his body increasingly resembles that of a PF. I'd want him at the PF for the same reason I'd want a guy like Rodman in the post, to take advantage of his special talent.

Josh Smith played the SF for the most part this year because he was placed at the SF. In this position, he did relatively well, started hitting long jumpers and even 3's. That does not tell me that he is better at the 3 or the 4. Just that when at the 3, he seems to be doing ok.

I think that defensively he is much better in the post. Personally my biggest gripe is with Woody for not putting him in the post more when Al was on the bench. On offense, when he finally was put down there in the last few weeks, he did great. He got a lot of and1s when he tried back to the basket plays. His post offense seemed a lot more ready to play PF than his dribble is for him to play SF.

People don't respect his shot, and he seemingly was shooting further and further from the basket where people were giving him wide open shots and he was hitting. If anything, that was the game of a SG. For him to be a great SF he has to be able to create off the dribble, which he is nowhere near doing.

I don't know what PF skills he lacks that MVP candidate Dirk has for instance. He's not as tall but he jumps as high.

So like I say, I think he has serious advantages and disadvantages at either the SF and the PF. He may become a SF, but we shouldn't assume that that is where he'll be just because that's where we played him when we had our #2 guy starting at the PF. As of right now he looks to me like a SF/PF combo type player.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

I agree with Billy Knight that there is no such thing as position, only skill sets.

---

I don't know that there are no positions, and I don't know if BK ever said this, but I agree with the idea that TOO MUCH is made out of positions

[Johnnybravo4]

Quote:

---

"I'd settle for 7'8" 285"

We had one in 1988 - his name was Jorge Gonzalez. He was 7'-7" and 400 pounds. Couldn't keep up in the NBA and became a pro wrestler.

---

His name was El Gigante to be more specific. Sucked a wrestling too.

Don't forget about the Shaq stopper Priest Lauderdale. 7'4 300 lb tub of goo.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

I don't know that there are no positions, and I don't know if BK ever said this, but I agree with the idea that TOO MUCH is made out of positions

---

I think to much is made out of size, in that if you are tall at the 4 you can be a little shorter at the 5. Or if you are tall at the 5 you can be a little shorter at 4. Everyone wants the perfect size front line: 7' center, 6'10" or 6'11" pf, and 6'8 or 6'9" sf.

I wonder how many of the playoff teams really match this perfect height lineup. Now there is a research project.

[Johnnybravo4]

I don't know what team they are trying to emulate. Damn sure not the Lakers, Pistons or Bulls. Maybe they want to create the Houston twin towers or maybe the first Duncan Spurs teams with Duncan, David Robinson and Horry.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

I don't know what team they are trying to emulate. Damn sure not the Lakers, Pistons or Bulls. Maybe they want to create the Houston twin towers or maybe the first Duncan Spurs teams with Duncan, David Robinson and Horry.

---

The Celtics as well with Bird, McHale, and Parish. Now that is a front line to dream of. Unfortunately, three players on one team like that only happens once in a dynasty....

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Playing either one at PF detracts from their development at their preferred position.

---

Here we go again with Diesel highjacking another positive post on our young players and team as it compares to other positive players of same size and talents.

Go make your on negative post on MWill, Smoove, and team not being able to improve any and all skill sets and leave the positive ones based on their potential talents and ability to develope their skills alone....

---

I wasn't being Negative. Just observant. I said preferred position. That means that the position that they choose.

Now, let's look since it's development that you guys are talking.

What skills did JSmoove work on this year?

3 pt shooting.

passing.

ball handling.

All improved over what he did last year.

Did he work on any post up moves?

The fact that I see Smoove at the three point line and on the wing more than I see him in the post tells me that he prefers the Sf over the Pf position. This is with and without Al.

Also..

Marvin. How many times did you see Marvin in the lane. He did a lot of shot chucking and every once in a while, he would drop his head and boudler into somebody. That's not PF. That's Sf. He also seems to prefer the Sf position. In fact, it seems like he shys away from contact.

So how is that being negative other than I'm not saying what you want to hear?

Too much hope talk, not enough reality.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

The fact that I see Smoove at the three point line and on the wing more than I see him in the post tells me that he prefers the Sf over the Pf position. This is with and without Al.

Also..

Marvin. How many times did you see Marvin in the lane. He did a lot of shot chucking and every once in a while, he would drop his head and boudler into somebody. That's not PF. That's Sf. He also seems to prefer the Sf position. In fact, it seems like he shys away from contact.

---

Smoove not putting the ball on the floor and driving the lane, tells me his handles still suck. So if he really wants to be a SF, he needs to work on that. What it does not tell me, since he does not like driving the lane, is he prefers PF over SF.

Smoove not having a good post game tells me if he wants to be a PF, he also needs to work on that. What It does not tell me is he prefers SF over PF.

How can a quality SF not have the skills to drive the lane? And how can a quality PF not have a post up game?

Answer: he needs to develope at least one of those skills to a much higher level. You just claim to be able read his mind (Diesel the psychic)and I do not. Thats is the difference between you and I.

If you took off the blinders you could see, that at this point in his developement, he has skills (3 pt shooting, rebounding, shot blocking) that fit both positions and he also lacks major skills for both positions as well.

The rebounding and shot blocking definetely point to PF, The 3 point shooting are great skills for either position. Especially an all star at either position.

Smoove has great skills Diesel, but he lacks some really important fundamental ones for either position. Due to the skills he is showing me right now, I think he can be a much better PF than SF.

I think he is already a much better all around PF than Toine. Yet you wanted Toine to be our PF but not Smoove. Why not Smoove, who is much better on D and has a lot more self control than Toine, when it comes to hoisting the three?

Why are you so against Smoove at the 4, yet you were so for Toine being our 4. What the hell is the difference?

[Diesel]

You got to be kidding.

You think he's a much better Pf than Walker?

Come on.

What about Al?

What about Reef??

This is going to be the tell tell sign... What happens when you need points?

When you needed points with Al, Reef, or Walker, they could go to their low post moves and get you points.

Smoove doesn't play in the low post. Smoove is a customer on the court. He's sitting around waiting for either JJ or Al to draw the defense in and kick the ball out to him on the three point line. He's definitely not making anything happen on the low box...

[frosgrim]

I agree with every thing you said. If Smoove was in college right now, he would be working on developing one of those skill sets with the college coaching staff, ie a post up game or a dribble. I think Smoove has much more potential as a post player than a wing, but that is just from what I have seen. He looks a lot more like Rasheed did in college right now than say a Stackhouse.

As for Marvin, he's actually said in the AJC (the physical verison that I read every morning) that he likes playing the 4. He thinks he has advantages there that he can use. So this drival that from other posters that Marvin doesn't want to play PF is just make-believe.

In all these are two rising college juniors that will begin to establish there positions in the coming year, but the final word isn't going to be known on them for several more years. But what the heck its entertainment to be certain of the future and make everyone on the board angry...

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

You got to be kidding.

You think he's a much better Pf than Walker?

Come on.

What about Al?

What about Reef??

This is going to be the tell tell sign... What happens when you need points?

When you needed points with Al, Reef, or Walker, they could go to their low post moves and get you points.

Smoove doesn't play in the low post. Smoove is a customer on the court. He's sitting around waiting for either JJ or Al to draw the defense in and kick the ball out to him on the three point line. He's definitely not making anything happen on the low box...

---

Again what is the difference between your boy Walker and our PF Smoove? Answer the question or don't bother replying. There is no sense in it, if you can't back it up with some inteligent observations and comparisons on both sides of the court between Walker and Smoove.

[Buzzard]

Quote:

---

I agree with every thing you said. If Smoove was in college right now, he would be working on developing one of those skill sets with the college coaching staff, ie a post up game or a dribble. I think Smoove has much more potential as a post player than a wing, but that is just from what I have seen. He looks a lot more like Rasheed did in college right now than say a Stackhouse.

As for Marvin, he's actually said in the AJC (the physical verison that I read every morning) that he likes playing the 4. He thinks he has advantages there that he can use. So this drival that from other posters that Marvin doesn't want to play PF is just make-believe.

In all these are two rising college juniors that will begin to establish there positions in the coming year, but the final word isn't going to be known on them for several more years. But what the heck its entertainment to be certain of the future and make everyone on the board angry...

---

Exactly, it all has to do with developement and hard work. So many talented players have failed because they were so talented everything just came easy. Once they got to college or the NBA, they found out the hard way at this level it takes work plus talent.

You just can't over power peolple with your leaping ability and or size anymore. Shooting over people does not come with ease, you actually have to learn to create space. Skills take hard work, talent their born with.

The all stars and greats know this, if Smoove and MWill want to take it to the level of All star, they are going to have to work at it. I think they are both capable of this and they appear to also have the type of character that drives them to become better.

No one (at least not many of us) doubt their talents. Now they just have to go to work and keep on improving.Talent will get you a paycheck in the NBA, hard work will keep it coming year after year...