Al/Salim for Shawn Marion.

[Guest Walter]

[exodus]

[gsuteke]

my position on this team is if you are going to build it let it grow. you can't spend 2 years building something and then all of a sudden blow it up.

Billy Knight had to have a 4 year plan going into this thing. So far this is what he's put together

Starters

Joe Johnson

Josh Smith

Harrington

Role Players

Zaza

Salim

Lue

Childress

Somewhere in the middle

Marvin

We've got plenty of role players, unfortunatley this year they were starting instead of on the bench.

The acquisition of a distributor and perimeter defender along with an inside defensive presence will complete this team. Harrington may or may not be moved for one of these pieces.

hopefully Billy will either get a perimeter or post defender this offseason. i wouldn't count on getting starter quality players at both positions this offseason. the Hawks are 2 years away no matter how you look at it. the stupid thing would be to hit the panic button at this point.

[gsuteke]

throwing an Anti-Marvin rant into every thread is the equivalent of yelling "fire" in a theater at this point.

[tmac13]

What the hell is "potential superstar status"..

How do you get it?? How do you lose it??..

[chillzatl]

First off, yah, of course marion is better than smooth at the moment. Don't waste my time saying that, I know it. Everyone konws it. The point is, he won't be better than him for long. Apart from that, they are essentially the same player.

Secondly, Marion plays PF right now (and has for two seasons). He's smaller than Smooth, who you and walter say CANNOT play PF. So why would we go out and get an undersized PF (or SF, which we have two of already, according to you) when we have one who has the tools to be every bit as good as Marion and happens to be not quite as undersized.

Then we have a perfectly gifted option to play SF in Marvin.Gasp, SHOCK, I know, crazy huh. Not that you would suggest for a second that Marvin could actually be a starting quality SF in the NBA...

the point of my post, which you would have gotten if you weren't in such a rush to read your own reply, is that despite being a SF by nature, he plays PF for the Suns and does a good job at it. Defensively he holds his own and offensively, he creates matchup nightmares. If you put two and two together, you can see that Smooth can be every bit as good as marion as both a defender and a PF. So it's absurd to trade our PF for another SF, who would probably end up being PF for us anyway, when we have another player (smooth) who is just as capable of being as good a PF as marion.

get it?

[chillzatl]

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MW will NEVER post per 48 stats like Marion did his rookie year!

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This is what it has always been about and will continue to be about. You and Diesel, don't like Marvin. You're just digging up stats to try and cover it up. You don't have the stones to come out and say "I just do not like him". Be a man for god sakes...

It's laughable that you or diesel would sit here and say "we have too many SF's". Then propose a trade of our already undersized PF for another undersized PF/SF tweener. It's even funnier when you both constantly say that Smooth can't play PF. BUt the guy you want to trade our PF for, does exactly that.

I want to personally thank Diesel for taking the time to prove to everyone that Smooth can be a very effective PF in the NBA and exactly how he can do it.

[Guest Walter]

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my position on this team is if you are going to build it let it grow. you can't spend 2 years building something and then all of a sudden blow it up.

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I'm not blowing the team up, certainly no more so than trading Al Harrington would. I'm suggesting exchanging one good but redundant prospect for another good, not redundant prospect. After which we "let it grow" without the prospect of having to dismantle it later because of already mentioned redundancy. NOBODY is suggesting "blow (anything) up". Nobody.

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Billy Knight had to have a 4 year plan going into this thing. So far this is what he's put together

Starters

Joe Johnson

Josh Smith

Harrington

Role Players

Zaza

Salim

Lue

Childress

Somewhere in the middle

Marvin

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That is exactly how I would describe the team as well. I just feel Marvin's value TO US is greater as a traded prospect than as a "somewhere in the middle" redundant member of the team, especially when we have SO MANY HOLES TO FILL.

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We've got plenty of role players, unfortunatley this year they were starting instead of on the bench.

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Agree.

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The acquisition of a distributor and perimeter defender along with an inside defensive presence will complete this team.

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Complete? Maybe. I think we shouldn't settle for a "complete" one when we dont' have to, at least one lacking a post offensive option which your scenario creates.

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Harrington may or may not be moved for one of these pieces.

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And if not how do we get both pieces? The draft won't provide said defensive presence, FAcy is a crap shoot with alot of crap this year, and we don't have a draft pick next year. Next stop? Trade valuable yet redundant asset at Sf.

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hopefully Billy will either get a perimeter or post defender this offseason. i wouldn't count on getting starter quality players at both positions this offseason.

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Why then will we get a starter quality person next year when we have less cap flexibility, no Al to trade, and no draft pick? Doesn't now seem the most flexible and most viable time to remake (not blow up) this team?

[Packfill]

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I have to say no to Shawn Marion just b/c we need to use Al to net us a PG/C and I don't think Marion is a max-type player. Take away Steve Nash and who knows what happens.

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Marion was an all-star before Nash showed up.

[Popeye]

Read my sig Chillz it explains it all.

[gsuteke]

and i just want to talk about the Hawks in a constructive way. you have to understand Walter that every one of your posts revolves around getting rid of Marvin. you have some logic in wanting to do that. however when i see "walter" on the thread i know what you're going to say before i even read it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on trading Marvin Williams.

so Walter, given the most likely scenario that Al doesn't resign here what direction would you go in regarding player acquisitions assuming everyone else is still on the roster?

[Guest Walter]

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MW will NEVER post per 48 stats like Marion did his rookie year!

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This is what it has always been about and will continue to be about. You and Diesel, don't like Marvin. You're just digging up stats to try and cover it up.

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Just find me a stat that suggests MW will be as good as Marion was or is. One stat. Anybody.

About trading for Marion, who I see as a Sf and who would be a Sf in any other system. I am trading potential for actual, same as you wanting to trade for Jefferson. That is a different issue than trading a redundant player to fill other positions, but doing the first wouldn't preclude the second.

Anyhow, What a bunch of hot air, Chillz. I've already said I would even trade JS if I thought MW was going to be better or if we could get what I feel is JS's potential in a player playing another position. MW isn't and won't be based upon statistical evidence and I just don't believe JS value can be had in return unlike MW who is still in the relative glow of being a #2 draft pick. Fact is I would trade anybody (save maybe JJ - leader - and ZaZa - value) if we could get their value in return.

I simply want to see this team established with a star or potential one at nearly if not every position, not just at Sg and Sf. I want that team - draft pick forward included -to grow together starting the coming year with all its major pieces in place and without the imminent threat of trade turmoil due to so much redundancy.

That's what I want. Quit trying to make this personal. Fact is I hated the Josh Childress pick far more than the MW pick but accept that Childress can be a very valuable role player for us and his value isn't near as high as #2 pick MW. If it was about the pick or player hate I would have called or would be calling for Childress being traded. I didn't and don't. I only call for a trade of a Sf and a trade for (ideally) an established star and/or a Pg or C. I believe that MW is the valuable yet redundant asset who by trading we least hurt the team and most help it.

Get over yourself about your opinion of my bias. It's colorful but not constructive. I've stated my opinion as best I can and there are people here so in belief that I hate a player that perhaps this opinion will have to come from someone else. That's unfortunate because I believe we would be better served trading a Sf now rather than later when the value of potential diminishes and we have far less draft, cap, and trade (al) flexibility.

[Guest Walter]

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so Walter, given the most likely scenario that Al doesn't resign here what direction would you go in regarding player acquisitions assuming everyone else is still on the roster?

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First, I want to draft Bargnani above all else, but if you are forcing to consider an undersized lineup lacking interior skill I'd look to draft Aldridge IF he's 6'11", shows some more toughness in workouts, and I believe he can play full-time center.

All other prefered ideas right now include "draft Bargnani".

I don't like trading the pick if Bargnani is on the board. If we're picking 5th or 6th and no top 5 big is available I'd try to find a deal that gets us Marcus Williams at the right draft price (be it trade down or stay). Roy would be next. A trade down for 12 and 17 (or whatever NO has) if it could "guarantee" us Marcus Williams would be my later ideal. Then I'd take a flyer out on O'Bryant or Senge.

Assuming Bargnani or Aldridge, trade Harrington, Salim for Ben Gordon, cap fodder.

Lineup either...

Ben/Lue

JJ/JC

JS/MW

Bargnani

ZaZa

or

Ben/Lue

JJ/JC

MW

JS

Aldridge

W

[gsuteke]

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so Walter, given the most likely scenario that Al doesn't resign here what direction would you go in regarding player acquisitions assuming everyone else is still on the roster?

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First, I want to draft Bargnani above all else, but if you are forcing to consider an undersized lineup lacking interior skill I'd look to draft Aldridge IF he's 6'11", shows some more toughness in workouts, and I believe he can play full-time center.

All other prefered ideas right now include "draft Bargnani".

I don't like trading the pick if Bargnani is on the board. If we're picking 5th or 6th and no top 5 big is available I'd try to find a deal that gets us Marcus Williams at the right draft price (be it trade down or stay). Roy would be next. A trade down for 12 and 17 (or whatever NO has) if it could "guarantee" us Marcus Williams would be my later ideal. Then I'd take a flyer out on O'Bryant or Senge.

Assuming Bargnani or Aldridge, trade Harrington, Salim for Ben Gordon, cap fodder.

Lineup either...

Ben/Lue

JJ/JC

JS/MW

Bargnani

ZaZa

or

Ben/Lue

JJ/JC

MW

JS

Aldridge

W

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Walter i feel like i'm part of an intervention.

LOL

[jerrywest]

With all these great names popping up in exchange for Al, BK sure looks quite smart for not dealing him at the trading deadline. We sure cursed him out for that.

[gsuteke]

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With all these great names popping up in exchange for Al, BK sure looks quite smart for not dealing him at the trading deadline. We sure cursed him out for that.

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i am still of the opinion that he should have been moved. there's only a 50-50 chance we'll get something in return for him at this point.

[jezmund]

Yeah I guess that may be true. Not sure how to approach this situation. I guess I've just never been a fan of Marion b/c I don't really like his game but he is obviously productive. Just like Richard Jefferson, they are wing players which is something that we actually DO have and I really don't want to give up on them yet. I also don't want to pay 10-13 Million to either. I'm assuming Phoenix wants to save money by moving Marion so that cancels out Harrington. I surely don't want to take on salary by taking Marion so that cancels out that idea. I'd strongly consider Harrington/Salim for Marion but that's it. I'd rather look at other options. If we are getting another wing, he must be able to handle the ball. Richard Jefferson > Marion there.

[tmac13]

This is a Diesel creation..

[Packfill]

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Yeah I guess that may be true. Not sure how to approach this situation. I guess I've just never been a fan of Marion b/c I don't really like his game but he is obviously productive. Just like Richard Jefferson, they are wing players which is something that we actually DO have and I really don't want to give up on them yet. I also don't want to pay 10-13 Million to either. I'm assuming Phoenix wants to save money by moving Marion so that cancels out Harrington. I surely don't want to take on salary by taking Marion so that cancels out that idea. I'd strongly consider Harrington/Salim for Marion but that's it. I'd rather look at other options. If we are getting another wing, he must be able to handle the ball. Richard Jefferson > Marion there.

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I agree that it does not make a whole lot of sense to trade for Jefferson or Marion given that the team already has depth at forward. That said, both are very good players and if we did trade them I would not be adverse to trading one of the young guys to fill the remaining holes in the roster.

[Diesel]

If Phoenix signs Al to a deal that averages 10 million... (like he wants)...

Phoenix will save 5-6 million this yr, 7 million next year... and so on.

I threw in Salim just because he's a crowd favorite.