What happened to needing 2 stars to win?

[tmac13]

In recent memory it seems that almost every champion was based around having 2 very high quality players..I keep seeing all these posts about us having JJ so we don't need AI and so on..

1st..JJ is much more the "sidekick" Pippen type personality than he is the Jordan "superstar" type..

2nd..How do we find this 2nd bigtime player if we don't want to offend JJ?..Are we hoping that Marvin or Smoove turns into that player?..Maybe they will but thats years away..

It just seems the attitude of the board is to keep drafting kids and pray one of them turns into a star, but we have no interest in someone that we know can come in and give us 30 a game next year..

A backcourt of Iverson and JJ is almost a guaranteed 50 points per game..We know we can depend on at least 10 per from Marvin, Smoove, and Zaza..When you can safely pencil in 80 plus points from your starting lineup you are usually in good shape..No, we wouldn't win the championship next season, but we are a playoff team..We play to a wild sellout crowd every night at home..We are suddenly a place where free agents might want to be..This team needs an infusion, not a drip drip drip of talent that is going to take years to develope.

[Lascar78]

And AI and Webber combined for 53 pts / 13 boards / 10.8 assists / 3.2 steals , and they still missed the playoffs despite having a defensive shotblocker, and one interior star and one perimeter star.

We would have no real inside D other than Smith, and all our talent would be perimeter oriented.

So again, why would we AUTOMATICALLY make the playoffs, when AI has failed twice in the past 3 years, and missed last year?

[Johnnybravo4]

I answed this post in another thread but JJ/AI is a totally different combination than AI/Webber

[Lascar78]

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When you can safely pencil in 80 plus points from your starting lineup you are usually in good shape..No, we wouldn't win the championship next season, but we are a playoff team..

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And again, Philly's starters averaged over 80 points per game ... no playoffs.

[tmac13]

AI has never had anyone the caliber of JJ at his side..Webber is a shell of what he used to be, Daly was benched because he wasn't playing good defense..We have better team than Philly minus AI..We are young , athletic, and can run..Philly has exactly 1 player in Iggy that can run with AI..We will have 3 to run with him in our starting lineup..

[buckeye242424]

Again, there is a 30 point a game scorer with 7 assists available, and people think it's a bad idea. This makes no sense. We don't know how he will affect our younger guys. We don't know how he will gel with JJ. We don't know how he will fit in Woody's system. Try it!

We do know Iverson plays hard. We do know his stats. We do know he an established star that will put butts in the seats. We do know that we have 39 wins the last two years and are still a way's off of the play-off's.

Why not take a chance? A chance on an all-star albeit, I like that. It's not like it's going to kill our francise...we're already pretty much at rock bottom!

[Lascar78]

Why are Webber's 20/10/3/1.4 stats so much less valuable than Joe's 20/4/6.5/1.2 ? I mean seriously.

Yes Webber looks like a gimp out there hobbling around, but he's still very effective. He's not quite the player he was, but he's a guy who's made 5 all-star teams, still putting up very good stats. Granted I rounded up his 9.9... to 10, but he is one of 5 20/10 guys in the league.

Joe is probably my favorite player, but let's not act like he's made allstars, or led teams to the playoffs.

And to me, a star on the perimeter and a star on the inside is a much better mix.

[Packfill]

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2nd..How do we find this 2nd bigtime player if we don't want to offend JJ?..Are we hoping that Marvin or Smoove turns into that player?..Maybe they will but thats years away..

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I think that is the hope of most people. A lot of teams acquire their stars through the draft, so it is not unreasonable for the Hawks to think they could get such a player in the draft - particularly given the number of high picks the team has had in the past few years.

[Final_quest]

Exactly, the draft is one of the best ways to get a star player.

[Plainview1981]

I agree about JJ not being a first option. Fact of the matter is that it's not all about talent... Some of it's about style. Do you really want a first option that doesn't get to the free throw line and is so dependent on the jumpshot?

I don't agree about getting AI. He might be a first option, but he's a bad fit... Plain and simple. While I don't agree with having an all 6'8 team, AI would be badly out of place on this team.

If JJ is going to be the first option you need to have someone that is as effective at scoring, but does so at getting to the ft line... A Dwight Howard, Bosh, Anthony... I think Jermaine O'Neal would be a really good partner for JJ if he could stay healthy.

Neither one are true first options, but I think their games would come together well. JJ should some clutch ability this season... Which is something Jermaine O'Neal lacks.

O'Neal gets to the ft line, rebounds, blocks and scores downlow. Since the guys above that I mentioned are unlikely to be had, I think Jermaine O'Neal might be the most likely that the Hawks could get.

Pau Gasol and O'Neal are the best guys that the Hawks could hope for talent wise. O'Neal could actually play the 5 spot which wouldn't hurt the forwards.

[AHF]

As I posted on another thread, the numbers make it questionable whether AI can coexist with another star in his prime.

Rookie Year

Iverson 1504 FGA

Stackhouse 1308 FGA

2nd Year

Iverson 1407 FGA

Next two highest players combined: 1551 FGA

SHIPPED OUT STACKHOUSE

DRAFTED LARRY HUGHES

3rd Year (Strike Season)

Iverson 1056 FGA

Next two highest players combined: 965 FGA

4th Year

Iverson 1733 FGA

Next three highest players combined: 1897 FGA

SHIPPED OUT LARRY HUGHES

5h Year

Iverson 1813 FGA

Next three highest players combined: 1917 FGA

6th Year

Iverson 1669 FGA (missed 22 games with injury)

Next two highest players combined: 1573 FGA

7th Year

Iverson 1940 FGA

Next two highest players combined: 1751 FGA

SHIPPED OUT KEITH VAN HORN

8th Year

Iverson played in just over half the games due to injury (48): 1125 FGA

Next highest FGA: 813 FGA

SHIPPED OUT GLENN ROBINSON

9th Year

Iverson 1818 FGA

Next two highest players combined: 1490 FGA

WEBBER ADDED (his FGAs drop by 2.5 and APG drop by 2.4 after trade)

10 Year

Iverson 1822 FGA

Next highest 1422 FGA

Can he adjust to being a part of a system instead of a system? That is my key question.

[Teeareess]

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Again, there is a 30 point a game scorer with 7 assists available, and people think it's a bad idea. This makes no sense. We don't know how he will affect our younger guys. We don't know how he will gel with JJ. We don't know how he will fit in Woody's system. Try it!

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I think we can be pretty sure he won't gel with JJ. Iverson doesn't really play well with others who need the ball to be effective. There's a reason Philly's never had him matched for too long with another ball handler. I think we can be pretty sure he'll score a lot of points, while his teammates watch, and we'll lose a lot of games, but at least for a while, the arena will be packed. I think there are other things that we can do that will help us more, both long and short term, than getting AI.

[DJlaysitup]

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As I posted on another thread, the numbers make it questionable whether AI can coexist with another star in his prime...

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Well actually, if this were to happen, AI would be the star (at least the primary star). He's got superior stats, makes more money, and has always been the lead dog.

There would have to be some give and take but AI would be the man.

[Johnnybravo4]

It is hilarious that you think that AI is a bad fit but Randy Foye is? You have got to be kidding me? Are we really debating whether we would like Marcus Williams or Allen Iverson? This is hilarious

And Las there is 20/10 and there is 20/10

Reef avg about 20/10 for his career, and so did Toine' are they the same player as Kevin Garnett who is also 20/10? Of course not. They do different things. The way JJ scores is a better compliment to Iverson than how Webber scores.

Iverson could do like Mike did and totally recreate his career in his 30's. We could run A.I. off of screens, run two man games with JJ...

He had to dominate the ball in Philly because he didn't have a worthy backcourt mate who was as deadly an option as he was. A young Larry Hughes wasn't it. Eric Snow damn sure wasn't it, and Kevin Ollie..well you know.

Lebron is having the same problem in Cleveland, with whom? The same people A.I. had a problem with Hughes, and Snow.

If Lebron had JJ they'd be in the ECF right now.

[TheDude]

well we're not getting him (see owners quotes in other thread) so no real reason to keep discussing it..but since we are....

I think having Allen Iverson driving the lane and dishing out to JJ could be lethal. JJ is more of a spot shooter than Stackhouse or Iggy so it would work better than when he was with them. BUT this is with the driving/dishing Allen Iverson, not the chucking 3's AI.

To me I would be for getting Allen but only in this following perfect scenario:

-He understands we'll depend more on his driving to basket than his jumpshooting

-We get a big man. This is a must. If we can afford a Pryz or Butler great. Take a chance on a potential like Nene maybe.

heck a great situation would be getting Jermaine AND allen but that won't happen.

[Johnnybravo4]

I don't care what some owners say...because there are more than one. Therefore if BK says we won't then I'll leave it alone.

[Lascar78]

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Reef avg about 20/10 for his career, and so did Toine' are they the same player as Kevin Garnett who is also 20/10? Of course not.

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Reef got 10 rpg once in his career. Walker got 10 rpg once in his career. They both squeaked into one all-star game apiece.

CWebb is a 5 time all-star whose career average actually is 21.6/10.2/4.4

KG:20.4/11.2/4.5

Compare that to

19/8/3.4 for Walker

19/7.8/2.7 for Reef

Those are not the same numbers. Getting over two more rebounds and a few more points each and every single game you go out over years and years of playing makes a big difference.

CWebb is in the KG class much more so that Walker or Reef can ever hope to be.

[Johnnybravo4]

Oh and I forgot Big Dog too.

So are you really trying to parse stats by saying that 19/8 is not equivalent to 20/10. Come on man you can do better than that. Webber is washed up as an impact player but is still talented enough to put up numbers.

[AHF]

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Oh and I forgot Big Dog too.

So are you really trying to parse stats by saying that 19/8 is not equivalent to 20/10. Come on man you can do better than that. Webber is washed up as an impact player but is still talented enough to put up numbers.

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I agree with that but he is still hella better than Shareef now and every year of Shareef's career. There is a big difference between those guys now and always has been.

[chillzatl]

Look at the four teams still playing. Only Miami qualifies for that "two star" rule that many seem to think has to be met.

Dallas = Dirk, they have no big 2nd star

Detroit = they don't have a star period

Phoenix = If Amare were there, I would say him, maybe. But apart from that, they don't have a traditional scoring load star either. They are really a team of 2nd stars or non-stars.

Teamwork, chemistry and balance will trump a flawed 2 star team 9 times of 10.

Your, and others, inability to look towards the future is distrubing. You would rather bring in the posterboy for anti-chemistry, than be patient, let our guys improve while building chemsitry as a team and then see what we have. We are one, maybe two at the most, seasons away from getting back to the playoffs. We're are unquestionably on the right path. Why screw that up (pull a babcock) just to sell jerseys and build a bunch of BS false hype around a team that will never be more than a 2nd round playoff team?

I'm glad Billy Knight is running the show.