coachx Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 I believe in gamers, people with the will to do whatever it takes to win. This is contagous and rubs off on other players. Sheldon Williams is the ultimate example of this. He is a coaches dream. By a long shot, he is the most consistent post player in the draft. One thing that is forgotten is that Duke was #1 all year long. So every team gave their best efforts against them. You cannot tell this by the box scores Williams put up though the season consistently dominating teams who were fired up to stop him. I also love the fact he was coached by one tough ass West Point Graduate. In my mind S. Williams and O'Bradley are the only 2 guys we should be looking at. What we need is toughness, Williams fills the bill. He and Za Za would not be the most talented front court in the league but I challenge you to come up with harder working front court. That consistent hard work down low wins games. However, I would try talking the agents into letting Williams& O'Bradley work out against one another. If Williams holds his own against a fired up O'Bradley, I'd take Williams. My reasoning is if O'Bradly cannot be consistent in a 30 game college schedule against inferior competition what makes you think he can be consistent in an 82 game season against the most physical big men in the world ? Anyone can get hot and fired up for 4 games. Case in Point........O' Bradley reminds me of Dalembert last year in the 1st round of the playoffs. When he was motivated he played 4 great games against the Pistons. Once he got his money he could not keep the same level of consistent intensity and found himself coming off the bench with $70,000,000 contract. The same will happen with O'Bradley, mark my words. S. Williams has the motor and will of B. Wallace with more of an offensive game. While O'Bradley is scary and risky. People compare Williams to Boozer. While they are physically similar, Williams is 5x's the competitor that Boozer is. He just has "it" that will to give 110% ever night. That is what the NBA is all about. Williams is my pick, hands down ! Give a legitamate arguement why not ? The word potential is not considered legitamate to me. Legitimate needs proof to back it up. These 2 point, 3 rebound nights against inferior teams are nothing but a joke. If we are not going have a pick next year, don't we need to draft for immediate help now ? I know I'm sick of losing as much as the next guy. Nothing is worse than the feeling of missing the playoffs with no lottery pick for any hope of the future,. This is our destiny next year unless we get immediate help now ! I would give O'Bradley some serious psychological test to measure his motivation and ethics of hard work before I consider as high as #5. This draft has Knight job on the line and the Hawks future on the line. Would really like to hear some good opinions ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 I think it all comes down to the viewpoint that Williams is considered more of a sure thing, while O'Bryant is less sure but still a great prospect based on his potential. The thought is that possibly O'Bryant's NBA ceiling is higher than that of Williams, but again that's just speculation and is based only on potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 i'm a big fan of heart and competitive spirit (damn noah for not declaring) so if shelden has that in spades, then i'll be happy with him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Well, since you don't want anything about the upside that Shelden doesn't have, I will have to make a case that he simply doesn't fit the type of player the Hawks want. These are excerpts from the weakness section on his draftexpress scouting report. Quote: Measurements will be key for Williams. Anything below the 6-9 he is listed at could drop his stock. Athletically, he is extremely solid but definitely not a freak, especially compared with other NBA players at his position. He is not the quickest player in the world nor the most explosive, not being the type that will soar for attractive put-back dunks or blocks like Marcus Camby or just blow by his man like Amare Stoudemire. See, I'm looking for an Amare Stoudemire type of post player when it comes to the style the Hawks want to run. Amare is athletic as hell, can get up and down the floor, defends the position well, and doesn't slow you down. With Shelden, I think his lack of athleticism and quickness makes him a bad fit for what we want to do. Quote: Offensively he is a bit robotic in his movements, not being the most fluid player in the world and often looking a bit mechanical in certain things he does. He often relies too much on his strength to score around the paint, not having too much finesse to his game. Most of his points come off layups, dunks, free throws and short jump-hook shots around the basket. It’s unlikely that he will be able to maintain the same scoring production at the NBA level where everyone is bigger, more athletic and often just as strong as he is. The lack of legit size and skill in NCAA is a concern when you try to project him to the NBA, as he is truly a man amongst boys. At times will try to force his way to the hoop using his brute strength, either traveling in the process or being called for an offensive foul. We've got the potential to have a high octane offense in Atlanta with the skill level of Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, and Josh Smith. A robotic and brute type of offensive player is a bad fit for a running team. Quote: His face-up game in general is extremely unpolished, being a center in a power forward’s body for the most part, maybe even a tweener. He has shown very little ability to shoot the ball outside of 15 feet, although this is just not his role at Duke so it’s hard to get a very accurate read on this. His ball-skills are just as raw. He dribbles with his head down, looking very stiff. You really don’t want him doing much ball-handling outside of 12 feet, but he has never really had to in his career. This basically says that he lacks versatility. This is a player that, in today's NBA, will not be able to play the power forward position because he simply doesn't match up offensively. On a team that wants to get out and run as well, he needs to have some ball handling ability. He will be asked to start a break off a rebound in Atlanta, as Mike encourages his players to do that. Quote: Comparing the player Williams was as a junior to the one we see as a senior, there aren’t really that many noticeable differences. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that he is fairly close to reaching his maximum potential as a player. Playoff teams or teams on the cusp of making the playoffs won’t mind that that much, since Williams is a 6-9 warrior that is ready to come in and battle for them immediately, but GMs drafting in the mid-high lottery who are looking to swing for the fences for a homerun pick could decide to shy away in their never-ending search for a player to build a team around. That’s the probably the worst thing you could say about Williams, he’s a role player in every sense of the word. And that's basically my biggest issue against taking him with the 5th pick in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsuteke Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Well, since you don't want anything about the upside that Shelden doesn't have, I will have to make a case that he simply doesn't fit the type of player the Hawks want. These are excerpts from the weakness section on his draftexpress scouting report. Quote: Measurements will be key for Williams. Anything below the 6-9 he is listed at could drop his stock. Athletically, he is extremely solid but definitely not a freak, especially compared with other NBA players at his position. He is not the quickest player in the world nor the most explosive, not being the type that will soar for attractive put-back dunks or blocks like Marcus Camby or just blow by his man like Amare Stoudemire. See, I'm looking for an Amare Stoudemire type of post player when it comes to the style the Hawks want to run. Amare is athletic as hell, can get up and down the floor, defends the position well, and doesn't slow you down. With Shelden, I think his lack of athleticism and quickness makes him a bad fit for what we want to do. Quote: Offensively he is a bit robotic in his movements, not being the most fluid player in the world and often looking a bit mechanical in certain things he does. He often relies too much on his strength to score around the paint, not having too much finesse to his game. Most of his points come off layups, dunks, free throws and short jump-hook shots around the basket. It’s unlikely that he will be able to maintain the same scoring production at the NBA level where everyone is bigger, more athletic and often just as strong as he is. The lack of legit size and skill in NCAA is a concern when you try to project him to the NBA, as he is truly a man amongst boys. At times will try to force his way to the hoop using his brute strength, either traveling in the process or being called for an offensive foul. We've got the potential to have a high octane offense in Atlanta with the skill level of Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, and Josh Smith. A robotic and brute type of offensive player is a bad fit for a running team. Quote: His face-up game in general is extremely unpolished, being a center in a power forward’s body for the most part, maybe even a tweener. He has shown very little ability to shoot the ball outside of 15 feet, although this is just not his role at Duke so it’s hard to get a very accurate read on this. His ball-skills are just as raw. He dribbles with his head down, looking very stiff. You really don’t want him doing much ball-handling outside of 12 feet, but he has never really had to in his career. This basically says that he lacks versatility. This is a player that, in today's NBA, will not be able to play the power forward position because he simply doesn't match up offensively. On a team that wants to get out and run as well, he needs to have some ball handling ability. He will be asked to start a break off a rebound in Atlanta, as Mike encourages his players to do that. Quote: Comparing the player Williams was as a junior to the one we see as a senior, there aren’t really that many noticeable differences. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say that he is fairly close to reaching his maximum potential as a player. Playoff teams or teams on the cusp of making the playoffs won’t mind that that much, since Williams is a 6-9 warrior that is ready to come in and battle for them immediately, but GMs drafting in the mid-high lottery who are looking to swing for the fences for a homerun pick could decide to shy away in their never-ending search for a player to build a team around. That’s the probably the worst thing you could say about Williams, he’s a role player in every sense of the word. And that's basically my biggest issue against taking him with the 5th pick in the draft. the numbers don't lie KayBee internet gangster no matter how you try to skew the facts. see Diesel's post on how Shelden faired against people in the draft at his position this season. the numbers don't lie. the uncoordinated ogre you speak of averaged over 20 points and 10 boards against all of them. he's robotic allright, he puts up 20 and 10 every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 25.1 PPG, 12.3 RPG, 3.0 APG, 55.0% FG, 45% 3P That's the numbers Adam Keefe put up as a senior at Stanford. Like I said. Numbers at the college level mean virtually nothing. In fact, Keefe averaged over 20 PPG for three years at Stanford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Against WHO?? Who did Adam Keefe play against?? The Pac-10 is notoriously weak in big men and Stanford didn't play tough schedules... So who was he playing? Was he playing the same type guys that Shelden played?? How did he do?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 I'd have to check, but my guess is Adam was playing against better talent because of the fact that the high school guys weren't jumping to the pros back then. I know he played against guys like Don MacLean, Isaac Austin, Brian Williams (Bison Dele), Scott Haskins, and Richard Manning. Those guys never became good NBA players, but they were very good college players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAreject Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Dang! Who put up those numbers? Let's draft that guy! BTW, Bill Curley at Boston College: 20 ppg, 9 rpg, 56% fg For the record, I said Bill Curley would be the next Adam Keefe. For the record, I wasn't completely right...he was worse. This is all just trivia, though. I think Shelden Williams is a better player. I think he will be a productive 12/11 PF for a few years. Horace Grant is a reasonable projection, though a touch optimistic. Whether that is worthy of a #5 pick is questionable. Certainly, players with higher ceilings will be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Let's see... Brian Williams (Bison Dele) was drafted 10th in 1991... However, you're quoting stats from 1992... so He's out. Isaac Austin was also drafted in that 1991 draft... Again, Keefe came out in 1992, so he's out... I'll save you some trouble with Haskins and Manning both were 1993 draftees.. Haskins went 14th to Indy in 1993... We drafted Manning 40th same year.. But I found one take about both at the time... Quote: Only potential centers were considered, since that is the team's greatest need. Scott Haskins - Oregon State (the other OSU). PAC-10 player of the year, but there are questions about his ability to play at NBA levels. Ed Stokes - UA. Probably won't get much better than he already is. Rich Manning - Washington. Probably only second round material. Funny that of all the guys you note... none of them were even good... Did any make a team?? KayBEE... It's Get real. Keefe would have been better served playing against my Couch and My chair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Let's see... Brian Williams (Bison Dele) was drafted 10th in 1991... However, you're quoting stats from 1992... so He's out. Isaac Austin was also drafted in that 1991 draft... Again, Keefe came out in 1992, so he's out... I'll save you some trouble with Haskins and Manning both were 1993 draftees.. Haskins went 14th to Indy in 1993... We drafted Manning 40th same year.. But I found one take about both at the time... Quote: Only potential centers were considered, since that is the team's greatest need. Scott Haskins - Oregon State (the other OSU). PAC-10 player of the year, but there are questions about his ability to play at NBA levels. Ed Stokes - UA. Probably won't get much better than he already is. Rich Manning - Washington. Probably only second round material. Funny that of all the guys you note... none of them were even good... Did any make a team?? KayBEE... It's Get real. Keefe would have been better served playing against my Couch and My chair... I think that you are missing his point which is a lot of guys in the past have done well in college like Danny Ferry, Christian Lakener, Sam Bowie etc. but have not done as well in the pros regardless of what conference they come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsuteke Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Quote: Let's see... Brian Williams (Bison Dele) was drafted 10th in 1991... However, you're quoting stats from 1992... so He's out. Isaac Austin was also drafted in that 1991 draft... Again, Keefe came out in 1992, so he's out... I'll save you some trouble with Haskins and Manning both were 1993 draftees.. Haskins went 14th to Indy in 1993... We drafted Manning 40th same year.. But I found one take about both at the time... Quote: Only potential centers were considered, since that is the team's greatest need. Scott Haskins - Oregon State (the other OSU). PAC-10 player of the year, but there are questions about his ability to play at NBA levels. Ed Stokes - UA. Probably won't get much better than he already is. Rich Manning - Washington. Probably only second round material. Funny that of all the guys you note... none of them were even good... Did any make a team?? KayBEE... It's Get real. Keefe would have been better served playing against my Couch and My chair... I think that you are missing his point which is a lot of guys in the past have done well in college like Danny Ferry, Christian Lakener, Sam Bowie etc. but have not done as well in the pros regardless of what conference they come from. look a spade is a spade. you can look at it and tell it's a spade. it's black. it's shaped like a spade. it's a spade. Shelden Williams is a basketball player. that's what he is, a player. you can look at the guy and know he will give you X amount of points and X amount of rebounds and X amount of blocks over a given season. O'Bryant you cannot. Sene (sp?) you cannot. Tyrus Thomas you cannot. Bargnani you cannot. i'd draft Roy personally but if you're arguing over big guys the Pro Shelden guys are talking facts while the Anti Shelden guys are talking hypotheticals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Shelden Williams is a basketball player. that's what he is, a player. you can look at the guy and know he will give you X amount of points and X amount of rebounds and X amount of blocks over a given season. O'Bryant you cannot. Sene (sp?) you cannot. Tyrus Thomas you cannot. Bargnani you cannot. i'd draft Roy personally but if you're arguing over big guys the Pro Shelden guys are talking facts while the Anti Shelden guys are talking hypotheticals. Again, that is the same thing people were saying about Joe Smith, David Thompson, Bo Kimble Trajon Landon, Terry dahare Derrick Colman etc. And were taking your approach in the past and not drafting on potential so guys like Garnett, KoBe, Dirk, Barkley, Vince Carter, Wade, Smoove etc all fell. But the scouts have gotten smarter lately and rank player on what they will become as oppose to what they are now. I bet you if you go back and examine the past drafts, you'll find that the guys determined to have the most potential vs proven senior have eventually performed better in the league over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsuteke Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Quote: Shelden Williams is a basketball player. that's what he is, a player. you can look at the guy and know he will give you X amount of points and X amount of rebounds and X amount of blocks over a given season. O'Bryant you cannot. Sene (sp?) you cannot. Tyrus Thomas you cannot. Bargnani you cannot. i'd draft Roy personally but if you're arguing over big guys the Pro Shelden guys are talking facts while the Anti Shelden guys are talking hypotheticals. Again, that is the same thing people were saying about Joe Smith, David Thompson, Bo Kimble Trajon Landon, Terry dahare Derrick Colman etc. And were taking your approach in the past and not drafting on potential so guys like Garnett, KoBe, Dirk, Barkley, Vince Carter, Wade, Smoove etc all fell. But the scouts have gotten smarter lately and rank player on what they will become as oppose to what they are now. I bet you if you go back and examine the past drafts, you'll find that the guys determined to have the most potential vs proven senior have eventually performed better in the league over time. you guys are trying to give Pheonix a top 7 pick next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: you guys are trying to give Pheonix a top 7 pick next year. The success of the Hawks will have less to do with who we draft in this year's draft and more to do with the continued progress being made by our young players already on the team, the continued development of chemistry because of continuity instead of making trades every year and on free agent signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exodus Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Again, that is the same thing people were saying about Joe Smith, David Thompson, Bo Kimble Trajon Landon, Terry dahare Derrick Colman etc. You should be banned for mentioning David Thompson in that sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Quote: Again, that is the same thing people were saying about Joe Smith, David Thompson, Bo Kimble Trajon Landon, Terry dahare Derrick Colman etc. You should be banned for mentioning David Thompson in that sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exodus Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 David Thompson averaged 22 ppg in his NBA career and you want to compare him with Joe Smith? W T F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted June 9, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: David Thompson averaged 22 ppg in his NBA career and you want to compare him with Joe Smith? W T F O.K. replace David Thompson with Tractor Trailer but I think you get my point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzachary Posted June 9, 2006 Report Share Posted June 9, 2006 Quote: Quote: Quote: Again, that is the same thing people were saying about Joe Smith, David Thompson, Bo Kimble Trajon Landon, Terry dahare Derrick Colman etc. You should be banned for mentioning David Thompson in that sentence. Also, I will fight to the death anyone who makes fun of Bo Kimble! He's actually on my whatifsports.com team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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