Players Wingspan are in

[ATLBob]

Yeah, ignore that last part, I was being a dumbass, I realize that you meant per 48 + 20 minutes played. Ie, all your statement did was disqualify Kobe and T-Mac's rookie stats. Why? That criteria sucks. Besides, you can't gaurantee that more fail than don't with stats similar to Marvin's unless you designed a database with every players rookie stats and ran an analysis, none of which I have the time for.

The point was, and remains, twofold: Marvin's stats stack up fairly well to several elite players as far as rookie years go, and you should not judge a player drafted on potential based on his rookie year anyway. Marvin did not have a poor rookie season. It was actually a pretty solid rookie campaign. He had similar numbers to three superstars in the league at the same point in his career. That's not exactly indicative of failure.

[ATLBob]

That's not to say Marvin is the next KG, Kobe, T-Mac. It merely provides a framework. No, his stats weren't quite as good, but certainly weren't terribly far off either. It merely shows that rookie campaigns aren't always very good predictors for the way a players career will pan out.

[gsuteke]

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Yeah, ignore that last part, I was being a dumbass, I realize that you meant per 48 + 20 minutes played. Ie, all your statement did was disqualify Kobe and T-Mac's rookie stats. Why? That criteria sucks. Besides, you can't gaurantee that more fail than don't with stats similar to Marvin's unless you designed a database with every players rookie stats and ran an analysis, none of which I have the time for.

The point was, and remains, twofold: Marvin's stats stack up fairly well to several elite players as far as rookie years go, and you should not judge a player drafted on potential based on his rookie year anyway. Marvin did not have a poor rookie season. It was actually a pretty solid rookie campaign. He had similar numbers to three superstars in the league at the same point in his career. That's not exactly indicative of failure.

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kudos to Bobby for accepting an alternative point of view while still stating his.

learn a lesson here Walter, Diesel, Kaybee internet gangster.

[Diesel]

100% agree.

It's easy to see that Shelden will be a PF on this level. He can play some C but he will be PF and playing him next to Zaza is not a crime.

About Aldridge, I don't think he comes into the league with League strength. Everybody talks about how good he is offensively.. Aldridge basically made the legend of Tyrus Thomas. I thought Aldridge was on Punked...

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Longhorns' standout center LaMarcus Aldridge finished with just four points on 2-of-14 shooting and the Longhorns were outscored 38-10 by the Tigers in the paint.

"Defensively that was a key for us, because you saw the game (Aldridge) had the night before last," said LSU head coach John Brady in reference to Aldridge's 26-point, 13-rebound performance against West Virginia. "And we knew if he did that against us, we had no chance to win the game. So you've got to compliment Glen specifically and Tyrus Thomas as an assist in the way we defended him today."

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While Shelden Williams almost Outscored/Outrebounded Both Glenn Davis and Tyrus Thomas together.

[Final_quest]

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That's not to say Marvin is the next KG, Kobe, T-Mac. It merely provides a framework. No, his stats weren't quite as good, but certainly weren't terribly far off either. It merely shows that rookie campaigns aren't always very good predictors for the way a players career will pan out.

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This is what I'm talking about. This is a fan's hope that Marvin will be one of the players that becomes an elite player in spite of not having a rookie campaign to indicate he will. I have the same hope, and I'm not saying we should get rid of Marvin, but I like to see things in REALITY to make me believe.

I'm just not sold on Marvin. I like him, he seems like a genuine person, team player, etc. I don't have the same feelings of Walter or Diesel, and I want him to do well, truly. From watching him last season I saw a flicker of ability here and there to indicate he could be a star, but I'd really like a Marvin believer to tell me what they saw in him to believe he could be a star. Someone besides KB, I've heard his schtik enough.

Most rationale posters just say to give him time, and that he's young and has all the tools to be a great player. Last season though, he seemed to be not much more than a player to swing it around to JJ, or anybody else, and take a jumper if he was open. I don't know, I want more than a fan's hope to believe in.

[Diesel]

Don't misunderstand.

I don't wish Marvin wrong at all.

I hope that Marvin proves me wrong.

I just don't think he will.

I see Marvin as a guy who recieved a lot of hype with the only basis being Body type and an overblown HS basketball game. He seems to have never rose to the occassion when it counted. 2 bad workouts, still drafted 2nd overall. Sat the bench in College.. Played good against weak teams played badly against good teams. Marvin has all the makings of Tim Thomas... But he gets all the hype as if he's the next Jordan.

There are going to be many here on HS who will follow Marvin giving him excuses year after year... I'm not on that train. I see what I see. Now, there's nothing wrong with Tim Thomas... but let's not act like Tim Thomas is KG... That means let's not try to change our whole team around to accomodate Tim Thomas.

[Yeti]

I think we have to be careful not to get swayed too much by these numbers. Remember Kevin Willis - he did very well for us for many years but was built like a tyrannosaurus. Little short arms. Be he was very effective - mostly because he was so strong and aggressive.

So let just remember the numbers are only one input. What's between his ears is just as important.

[AHF]

If Marvin is the role player you and Walter project at the Tim Thomas/Matt Harpring level then he is a huge bust. However, give the guy a little more opportunity before condemning him to that lowly status.

[Final_quest]

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However, give the guy a little more opportunity before condemning him to that lowly status.

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I'm willing to do that, but I just think about Smoove's rookie year. He made a lot of bad plays and then he would jump into the sky and crank one down on some guys head. Or he would get ten blocks in one game. I can't think back to many moments Marvin had to make me believe he could live up to his draft hype.

[drzachary]

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This is what I'm talking about. This is a fan's hope that Marvin will be one of the players that becomes an elite player in spite of not having a rookie campaign to indicate he will.

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There are many paths to fulfilling potential. One of the paths is playing one year of college ball, then going to the NBA. Very few players have taken this route, and most have not done well their first year (and have not realized their potential.) The sample size is much too small to use any other players' stats to PROVE that Marvin will or will not be a bust or a franchise player. All we can do is wait and see!

[Diesel]

Condemning is one thing..

However, if there's a deal out there that gets us equal value to his perceived value (especially in a needed position), I don't see why we should not do it.

More than just his future ability.. is his present position.

presently, he plays the same position as Smoove. If a deal comes along that would give us another player with the same value as Marvin's perceieved value... then I would easily take the deal.

That includes Ben Gordon/#16 for Marvin... That deal gets done as soon as Pax finishes saying it.

Gordon is an 18 ppg PG with skills that would compliment JJ's. All by himself, he's not enough but pack on the #16 pick and we have a deal.

I could see a draft night coming out with:

Gordon/Shelden/ and Sene.

[AHF]

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However, if there's a deal out there that gets us equal value to his perceived value (especially in a needed position), I don't see why we should not do it.

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If there is a deal that makes sense for our team, I would trade anyone on our roster.

[drzachary]

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presently, he plays the same position as Smoove. If a deal comes along that would give us another player with the same value as Marvin's perceieved value... then I would easily take the deal.

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IMO, you're locked too much into the small forward / power forward paradigm. Marvin and Smoove both play forward, much like JJ plays "guard" (though clearly not on the same level.) That's enough to build a team around, and they can be on the floor at the same time. There's 96 minutes at the forward slots, which could be 32 minutes per player for 3 players.

As an aside, some of my favorite teams ever have run 3-guard offenses, and taken the plodding center out of the picture. With 3 combo guards, that may work. My favorite center of all time (Hank Gathers) had a running PF's game. Note: I don't think we really have the personell for this, unless we start slotting Smoove at the 2-guard again Then again, a lot of prognosticators pre-2005 draft thought Marvin could play any position besides PG

[Lascar78]

Josh Smith looked a lot like Marvin in the first half of the year when he was behind Al and Toine. Then Toine got traded, (+ Al got injured) the team was his and Chills' to run, and they finally were able to relax and their play increased drastically.

Marvin has been playing behind Chill/Smith/Al all at the 3/4 and he has had a lot of pressure on him. He was very tight for the first half of the year, and you could see the talent oozing out once he started to relax a little more, and he played with more fire.

Marvin was intentionally brought along slower than the Joshes, so it's not fair to compare their performance and expect the same numbers.

[drzachary]

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Marvin was intentionally brought along slower than the Joshes, so it's not fair to compare their performance and expect the same numbers.

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There seems to be a belief that Marvin should have picked his own minutes, both at the college and the NBA level. I'm fairly sure, and I think you'd agree, that coaches do that.

[Lascar78]

Yeah, I mean Smith started 59 games as a rookie, Marvin started 7. Not because Smith was amazing right from the start, but because we were one of the worst teams in the entire history of the NBA, and someone had to start.

[Diesel]

I appreciated what LMU did. They were one of my favorites in College basketball.. especially during that time when you had Shaq at LSU, Spreewell at Bama, and Anderson/Scott at GT. However, that type of offense could only work in college.

You run up shoot.. then press.

If you don't hit a high percentage of your shots, your press won't be effective.

If your press is not effective, then you've lost.

That was a great year.... really.

But look at this...

LMU lost to UNLV with Larry Johnson, Plastic Man, Anthony, Hunt, and all them. The way that Tark beat them is with exceptional defense and overpowering offense. I think more than LMU, I really loved that UNLV running rebel squad with the ameiba defense.

But we don't have Jeff Fryer. We don't have Gathers or Kimble. I think we'd just as well do an imitation of UNLV who was a little more conservative... than LMU.

[drzachary]

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I appreciated what LMU did. They were one of my favorites in College basketball.. especially during that time when you had Shaq at LSU, Spreewell at Bama, and Anderson/Scott at GT. However, that type of offense could only work in college.

You run up shoot.. then press.

If you don't hit a high percentage of your shots, your press won't be effective.

If your press is not effective, then you've lost.

That was a great year.... really.

But look at this...

LMU lost to UNLV with Larry Johnson, Plastic Man, Anthony, Hunt, and all them. The way that Tark beat them is with exceptional defense and overpowering offense. I think more than LMU, I really loved that UNLV running rebel squad with the ameiba defense.

But we don't have Jeff Fryer. We don't have Gathers or Kimble. I think we'd just as well do an imitation of UNLV who was a little more conservative... than LMU.

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UNLV also had a stacked team full of illegally-recruited players! I'm a little bitter, yes

LMU's style could be effective in the NBA today. Paul Westhead's system with Deke & the Nuggets == failure. His system with the Suns ... different story maybe?

The key is really having a great outlet passer. Per Stumer on LMU would grab the rebound out of the air and pass it to the ballhandler before he touched the ground. Also, he'd turn around and run down court on D before he noticed if his second free throw went in

In any case, it would be fun to see, even if it didn't win championships. You might have gathered from my earlier posts that I hate defense.

[Final_quest]

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Marvin was intentionally brought along slower than the Joshes, so it's not fair to compare their performance and expect the same numbers.

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He got enough minutes to show some game though. I'm not looking for numbers per se, but flashes of dominance, skills, and ability. It wasn't Smoove's numbers that impressed me, and still isn't, but he gave you reason to believe that he could be a star. I just haven't seen that in Marvin yet.

I acknowledge that we are dealing with a small sample size of players that have chosen Marvin's path, but I'm just saying Marvin's play did not get me excited like Smoove's did. From what he has shown on the court, hope is what you are left with. I prefer to see some kind of domination or skill mastery, however.

[Diesel]

I bet a tear comes to your eye when you think about the left handed free throw?

Anyway..

I don't know. I would really like westhead to get another shot coaching in the NBA... I wouldn't have minded him with the Hawks back when we had JT, BK, and Glover (McLeod) as our 1,2, and 3....

But that team didn't have the shooters...

You really have to get off the UNLV hate. The only thing I hate about UNLV was that they took a dive against Duke in game 2. i'm sure, they could have whipped them again.