Are We Behind the other young teams in the league?

[Wurider05]

I agree. Marvin was solid his first season but I got the feeling that many people on this board (Diesel) wanted the kid coming in the the league with MVP type numbers while leading the HAwks to the NBA finals.

[Diesel]

No.

I wanted the kid to come onto the team and at least be the best Sf in his draft class.

Or Atleast be in the top 5 of his draft class.

Or Atleast be the best rookie on his team.

If Salim had played all year.....

The point is that Marvin didn't do anything worth talking about. He will never live up to the hype.

So now we say... "Slow Development".. OK.. Fine. But if he's slow developing then there's no need in us changing the team around to accomodate that. Let him learn from the bench and prove himself before we start trading players and cutting players and not drafting needed players to make room for him.

[Guest Walter]

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"The sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men" is NOT THE SAME THING as saying "a big man is our only need."

He was comparing Atlanta to Orlando. Read closely!

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Orlando has a VERY GOOD Pg in Nelson. WE don't. That was part of the discussion. To suggest we are not like Orlando (incorrectly) solely because of a big man is to imply they do not have a very good Pg. They do. We don't. Thus, the sole reasonS we are behind a team like Orlando are a big man and a Pg, making the later point about a big man as our only need equally inane.

DrZ. Read closely.

W

[Wurider05]

What do you mean by slow development. I am amm for throwing him to the wolves. Throughout the year the coach stated that he practiced well. Woody should have given him more minutes from the start.

[Guest Walter]

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Speaking generally:

We've had Marvin for ... one season. He has outperformed, I'd guess, 90% of college freshmen ever to declare for the draft. My position is "give him a little time."

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How many of those rumored college freshman were drafted #2? ...Play the same position as your most promising young talent?

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You are completely ignoring all the opinions of Marvin given by virtually everyone in the NBA pre-draft (Google is your friend), and ignoring his steady improvement through last season. You have a vendetta, plain and simple, and I don't see any possible way to talk rationally with a fanatic.

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You don't know me Dr.Z. Not one bit. So spare me please. There is no vendetta. I couldn't care less about MW, yes. Just as I couldn't care less about JS if the tables were turned. That's because I care about the team first.

Were the positions reversed and JS were the later drafted lesser player I would say 100% the same thing about him that I say about MW. Because I believe, as do the same many with the above opinions you cite, that MW (in the actual scenario) does not help the team more than an similarly talented player at another position of need and that we have many positions of need.

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I do not think Marvin is so astoundingly good, at this time, that we will force other players out of their natural positions. However, I don't agree that we even know these other players' hypothetical positions! What is Josh Smith? Can you tell me without a shadow of a doubt that he has to be a SF? He has to be a PF?

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You don't build teams based upon beyond a shadow of a doubt notions. You can't. You can build them upon the strong evidence up to date. JS has never been a Pf, he does not in any way shape or form appear to want to become a Pf, post skills on either side of the ball required at the NBA level are very difficult to acquire, taking even the best athletes years starting in HS if not earlier and the intense desire to perfect them. Moreover, only ONE Pf in the list of top 10 Pfs is JS height or shorter and listed weight or less. That's Antwan Jamison, who unlike JS played Pf through HS and college and who as a 'tweener is sometimes considered a liability at the position. Thus, I can say that not only will JS in all likelihood be a Sf, he would have a higher ceiling as a Sf than as a Pf, and would never be considered a liability at the position.

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I do not think "reaching for players" is such a bad thing. Isn't that just called "drafting for need?"

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Reaching too far either way is poor, for project or position. You weigh all the variables. Last year, when weighing all the variables, especially when you remove UNC title hype, the many Pgs were close, equal, if not better, they played a hard position to fill, a more valuable position, and a position of need. Burnt by last season we may be playing it close to the vest this year. Certainly, the needs not addressed in last year's draft remain. Point? When you do not address a need when all variables combined and weighed properly suggest you should, you may be forced to address a need when all variables combined and weighed properly suggest you shouldn't. That is what last year's draft is doing to this year.

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Did we have ANY idea where we'd be picking in the 2006 draft? Of course not.

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We all had an idea where we would be picking in this draft based upon our team predicitons. Most believed double win total over 13. That was right.

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I do not think Marvin is so astoundingly bad that we should trade him right now for 50 cents on the dollar.

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Come off the straw man argument. You don't need that to score a "point" do you? First, it's not about MW being "astoundingly bad", it's about him not being nearly as good as JS and not having superstar potential in any real sense or likelihood. Second, nobody would suggest .50 on the dollar. In fact, the very best thing about MW has been his #2 draft status. That is his most valuable asset. Should you not trade him now, particularly if JS continues to outplay him, MW defers to others, etc., MW's value will most definately decrease. His value is based upon PO-tential. Should he continue to not show rapid signs of reaching it, his value can only decrease. In short, .50 on the dollar happens when you trade a #2 pick, 3 years later and he resembles "solid" but not superstar material.

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That said, there certainly exist scenarios in which trading Marvin would be beneficial: trading Marvin for Chris Paul is one of them.

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There are many more, some even plausible. Google them.

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In any case, none of us is capable of foretelling the future. Jettisoning a cheap, young player who may blossom into something great would be foolish.

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Thank you for highlighting the only thing more foolish than not trading for an equal player at a position of need.

Hard for a flower to blossom under the shade of a black walnut tree. The Walnut poisons the soil, killing most around it. That's what having two top potentials at one position will more often create.

Of course, you will argue irrational discourse this and that because you know me so well.

W

W

[Wurider05]

You never want to give up on a player too soon. I mean JS nad JC didn't have the best stats in the world thier rookie seasons and look how they came back the next season. Give the dude a chance. Even at this very moment JC and JS are not leaps and bounds better than him. When he got minutes he produced if he would have started from the beginning his numbers would have been higher. Remember that we are entering the era of small ball in the NBA. You can't honestly say that Marvin didn't improve from the beginning of the season until the end. He is very cerebral and both BK and Woody stated that they intentionally brought hi along slowly because they felt like they threw JC and JS to the Wolves too soon. I do understand and respect your opinion however, we got to give him a chance. If they trade Al or let him walk then you know that they are going with Marvin. I have seen alot of players with alot of hype that don't pan out, but when I watched Marvin play you just know that this kid is money in the bank. You can't say that about alot of players.

[AHF]

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"The sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men" is NOT THE SAME THING as saying "a big man is our only need."

He was comparing Atlanta to Orlando. Read closely!

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Orlando has a VERY GOOD Pg in Nelson. WE don't. That was part of the discussion. To suggest we are not like Orlando (incorrectly) solely because of a big man is to imply they do not have a very good Pg. They do. We don't. Thus, the sole reasonS we are behind a team like Orlando are a big man and a Pg, making the later point about a big man as our only need equally inane.

DrZ. Read closely.

W

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Orlando has no shooting guard we have a shooting guard who is significantly better than Nelson.

Look at the big picture - the only thing fundamentally separating the teams is Dwight Howard.

Take out Chills and add Dwight Howard for us and give Orlando Iguodala or Deng or Chills and tell me which is better between your favorite of the two Atlanta lineups:

Lue

JJ

Marvin

Josh Smith

Howard

6th Man - Zaza

Lue

JJ

J.Smith

Howard

Zaza

6th Man - Marvin

v.

(switching our 2004 lottery pick with Orlando's)

Nelson

Iguodala

Turkoglu

Battie

Milicic

6th Man - Hill

v.

(giving both squads Dwight Howard)

Nelson

Stevenson (who opted out of his deal)

Turkoglu

Howard

Milicic

6th Man - Hill

I would take one of the Hawks squads if I was building for the next 3 years, personally.

[RAHMOR]

I don't know if Orlando is better because of Dwight Howard or not. Truth is we were right on their ass the entire season until the end where they went on a great win streak and pulled away. During the time when we were on their ass they still had Dwight Howard and Jameer Nelson. They traded away Stevie Franchise and acquired Darko Milicic and towards the end of the season they got their act togther. Why? I don't know. Maybe the coaching or maybe they felt like without Francis hogging the ball they could play better together. Either way, they weren't that much better than us record wise for 3/4ths of the season.

[Diesel]

No. Marvin would get on the floor and prove that he was not "the man"... fouls, turnovers, the whole lot. Some here says " well, he's 19, we expected him to develop slowly."..

I was saying OK. If we expect him to develop slowly, let him do it from the bench. Why should we risk ruining JSmoove's talent by playing him out of position for a player who we expect to "develop slowly"??? We should we fight so hard against getting a real Pf here over a guy who we expect to "develop Slowly". If we are on the slow development plan, let's do that, but let's do that with the thought in mind that until he develops, he should play off the bench.

And when he develops, a trade should be warranted.

[Guest Walter]

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You never want to give up on a player too soon. I mean JS nad JC didn't have the best stats in the world thier rookie seasons and look how they came back the next season.

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Actually, JS had very similar, almost equal stats per48.

Regardless, it's not about giving up on a player. It's about giving a chance to another similarly talented player who plays a position of need. In short, by keeping MW you are giving up on Childress, who becomes the odd, talented man out AND you deny yourself a similarly talented player at a position of need. That's giving up on two players to keep MW. Brilliant stategy.

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Give the dude a chance. Even at this very moment JC and JS are not leaps and bounds better than him.

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Both are better than him, JS is well if not significantly better than him, and he's been so all his basketball life.

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I have seen alot of players with alot of hype that don't pan out, but when I watched Marvin play you just know that this kid is money in the bank. You can't say that about alot of players.

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MW is a sure fire "solid" player. That is a good and a bad. He isn't and won't likely ever be better than Josh Smith, but he'll be a decent to good starter in this league. To me his #2 pick trade value is more valuable to a team that needs a superstar and other positions filled than his solid but less than JS play and positional redudancy would be. That's the crux for me. I'd look to trade JS if the stats were reversed. They aren't. I simply look to trade the player who if traded would least hurt the team and most help it.

W

[Admin]

YOU have no idea what Marvin will become as a player. Nobody does! He could VERY easily become a superstar player, or he could become a solid starter. There is a much greater chance of him becoming the superstar than just average simply because of his age and his enormous physical gifts. He has only played one year and showed glimpes of being a dominant player as a rookie and yet you try and talk down about him like he is an average player.

Also, its insane to even think that having a player like Marvin reduces the need for Childress. If a team only needed 5 players I would agree with you, but thats simply not the case. A team MUST have at least 6 starter quality players on their team and Childress fills that role perfectly. He can be the 6th man and average 30 mpg and play a huge role on our team.

Honestly your anit-Marvin posts are tiring. It was nice to see you back on the board after you took your ball and went home, but after reading post after post bashing Marvin I am starting to miss those days when there wasnt another Diesel level basher on this site.

[Guest Walter]

4 of our "6 starter quality players" are much better suited for 2 positions. To not see this as a problem is, well, ridiculous.

W

[tmac13]

"There is a much greater chance of him becoming the superstar than just average simply because of his age and his enormous physical gifts. He has only played one year and showed glimpes of being a dominant player as a rookie and yet you try and talk down about him like he is an average player."

I saw potential and I saw ability, I didn't anything that looked like a superstar or remotely looked like a dominant player.. The simple fact he couldn't start in college or on a horrible NBA team as a rookie should tell you what his coaches think of him..When BK and Nique talk about him they saw he has the potential to be a 15 or 20 point NBA scorer..The don't say he is a superstar in the making.

[drzachary]

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The simple fact he couldn't start in college...

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......................

That's my first response.

My second response is: why WOULD he have started as a rookie? A stable roster, year-to-year is difficult to achieve on the college level. Why would Roy Williams have broken what continuity he did have? Roy won the championship, did he?

I don't think starting was Marvin's choice to make.

[tmac13]

When is the last time a "dominant" player didn't start in college or on his bad NBA team?..Thats the entire point..Marvin will be a good NBA player, but there is nothing in his game or in his mentality that shows anything more than that..

[exodus]

[Wurider05]

Thank You for the post. I just don't get it with these guys and their hate for Marvin. He is a Hawk after all and all he can do is get out there and play his game. DAMN!!!!

[drzachary]

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When is the last time a "dominant" player didn't start in college or on his bad NBA team?..Thats the entire point..Marvin will be a good NBA player, but there is nothing in his game or in his mentality that shows anything more than that..

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The answer to your question: when they were drafted out of high school, based on potential!

That's the whole thing.. Marvin was picked as a known project. He was drafted after only one year of college. Very few players are picked -- with the criteria being performance at the college level -- after one year of college. Picking Marvin after one year of limited minutes at the college level is not much different than picking him out of high school. It could end up being a bad pick, but none of us can predict the future, especially not based on his one year at UNC.

[Guest Walter]

...that the man drafting MW doesn't suggest he has superstar potential, calling him a potential 20 PPG scorer.

Al Harrington is that.

W

[Wurider05]

You are acting as if every lottery pick in the history of the league was a instant superstar MVP player. You may be right about Marvin but you can't throw the dude away because he isn't Chris Paul. You just can't argue with the skill set that he brings to the table. You can't deny that he isn't a talented play. You and Diesel act as if we drafted someone #2 who was a clear cut late second rounder. Do you guys even look at any of the Hawks games. He didn't even start for crying out loud.