Are We Behind the other young teams in the league?

[Diesel]

1. They have one big free agent acquisition who is a 2nd tier talent (JJ = Red) both have contracts that are far beyond what they should be making.

2. Like us, they have redundancy... Bell, Ford, Williams vs. Smith, Williams, Smith.

3. Like us, they have 1 position being manned by a overrated Journey:

Lue = PG; Simmons = Sf.

4. Like us, coming into this year, they will have no real vets.>6 yrs in.

5. Lastly, they have no identity.

These are the similarities I see.

They are a little different capwise because they took on some big contracts (Magloire, Simmons).... but for the most part, they are like us in the 5 ways I have already mentioned.

[Guest Walter]

It's affected your visual filed such that you can't see Pgs or your cognitive ability you can't think them.

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the sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men.

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That's inane. We have ONE hole to fill? You're either ignorant or just plain caught up in your own nonsense.

When Ty Lue, a career BU, is your starter and you don't have a legit BU, then Pg is a reason you are behind team. In fact ZaZa is a better center than Lue is a Pg. Pg is a HUGE hole for us.

& regardless, I know a position and we have an over-abundance of, could trade from, and could fill a need without creating a new one. Any guesses as to what position?

W

[Diesel]

didn't we lead the league in turnovers?

[Guest Walter]

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didn't we lead the league in turnovers?

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But Lascar's right, we don't have a need at Pg. A big man would solve all that.

W

[Lascar78]

I didn't say a big man was our only need. Lay off the caffeine and learn how to read. I am well aware of our lack of a PG and a need for one. However, Nelson is not a big part of why we are worse than Orlando. His 15/5/3 are better, but not miles ahead of Lue's 11/3/2. Lue's A/TO is slightly better.

Last I checked Orlando lost 10 more games than they won. They won 36 games, we won 26. Over the whole season, we were horrible, they were bad. The main difference was their big men, in Dwight, and eventually Darko. Like them, we have one great-backup / average-starter at PG. They have a dominant big man who manhandles the boards and can score, we have a goofy guy who can grab offensive boards but not really play D. He also has no help whereas Dwight now has Darko.

[Lascar78]

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28th in TOs, 20th in Assists, 10th worst in TO/AST

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Whereas Orlando was TERRORIZING the league by being 24th in TO , 27th in assists (Worse than us!), 29th in A/TO (Worse than us!)

Oh man, you're too funny...

[Diesel]

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the

sole

reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men.

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- KB...

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I didn't say a big man was our only need. Lay off the caffeine and learn how to read

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-also KB.

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However, Nelson is not a big part of why we are worse than Orlando. His 15/5/3 are better, but not miles ahead of Lue's 11/3/2. Lue's A/TO is slightly better.

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-KB

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Jameer Nelson: Nelson and Howard will form one of the league's most formidable duos in Orlando for years to come. Nelson has averaged 16.4 points and 5.9 assists on 48.5 percent field goal shooting as a starter this year; he'll have the job all to himself next year -- and he's still just 24. The Magic should find themselves in a very strange place next year: the NBA playoffs.[/qute]

-SI.

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Jameer Nelson

No player on the Magic was as close to mercurial point guard Steve Francis than Nelson. And no player benefited more from Francis being traded to the New York Knicks on Feb. 22.

Unloading Francis not only meant more playing time for Nelson, it also meant the organization believed he could be the starting point guard. Nelson plummeted to 20th on draft night because many thought he was too small to make it in the NBA, so finally earning the team's trust was key to him.

Nelson, 24, repaid the Magic for that trust, becoming their most potent offensive weapon during a streak in which they won eight consecutive games and 12 of 13 at one point.

Down the stretch, he topped 20 points seven times, often torching opposing point guards who were a half-foot taller.

"I think I've shown people that I can play in this league," Nelson said. "But now, I have to show them that I can win and take a team deep in the playoffs."

Nelson again will drill this summer with workout partner Allen Iverson. The way he sees it, if he can reach the point where he can guard the cat-quick Iverson, he can cover anybody in the league.

"It's a very big summer for me," said Nelson, who improved his field-goal percentage (45.5 percent to 48.3 percent), 3-point percentage (31.2 percent to 42.4 percent) and free-throw percentage (68.2 percent to 77.9 percent) with his work last summer.

"I have to come back with a lot more game and definitely have work on my defense. It may sound crazy, but I have to get quicker than I am now."

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-Florida today...

[Lascar78]

I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. You're focusing on the first half of the sentence and ignoring the second half.

You're acting as if I didn't know I said the "sole reason". Apparently what you're missing is that I didn't say "the sole reason we're not good", or the "sole reason we're not in the playoffs", I said "the sole reason we're behind teams LIKE ORLANDO".

And as I've shown you with the stats, I'm right. They also are way subpar when it comes to assists and TO's but are still significantly better than us because of their big men.

[drzachary]

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I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is. You're focusing on the first half of the sentence and ignoring the second half.

You're acting as if I didn't know I said the "sole reason". Apparently what you're missing is that I didn't say "the sole reason we're not good", or the "sole reason we're not in the playoffs", I said "the sole reason we're behind teams

LIKE ORLANDO

".

And as I've shown you with the stats, I'm right. They also are way subpar when it comes to assists and TO's but are still significantly better than us because of their big men.

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Sorry, Lascar. The sole reason we are behind Orlando is because Marvin's negative karma causes all our players to suck.

[Lascar78]

Haha, maybe it's all the negative karma of thousands of Marvin-bashing posts by Diesel and Walter

[Guest]

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1. They have one big free agent acquisition who is a 2nd tier talent (JJ = Red) both have contracts that are far beyond what they should be making.

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I don't think Redd is considered a free agent acquisition, its more of a re-signing.

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2. Like us, they have redundancy... Bell, Ford, Williams vs. Smith, Williams, Smith.

3. Like us, they have 1 position being manned by a overrated Journey:

Lue = PG; Simmons = Sf.

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True.

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4. Like us, coming into this year, they will have no real vets.>6 yrs in.

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No, they have Toni Kukc, Joe Smith and Jamal Magloire (he is right at 6 years right now).

I see what you mean, but I really don't think those make us a mirror image, or even much more than similar at the surface. They are more like a "hey they have a few things in common, thats cool" type of team compared to us.

[Guest Walter]

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I didn't say a big man was our only need.

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Lascar states (above)...

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the sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men.

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And the sorriest analysis justification follows...

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Like them, we have one great-backup / average-starter at PG.

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Lue = Nelson? WTF!

W

[Guest Walter]

You may not like my position or how I post it DrZ, but you haven't disagreed with it. You've never stated you believe that MW is a player worth playing other, better players out of position, reaching for players or avoiding players in this draft we would otherwise avoid or seek respectively, or that we couldn't reasonably be better off trading MW than keeping him.

Humor is nice, but in the absence of argument it veils (uncomfortable) agreement.

W

[AHF]

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I didn't say a big man was our only need.

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Lascar states (above)...

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the sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men.

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And the sorriest analysis justification follows...

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Like them, we have one great-backup / average-starter at PG.

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Lue = Nelson? WTF!

W

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Lue isn't nearly as good a building piece as Nelson (who is most remarkable for his outstanding FG%) but I agree that we would be right on part with Orlando if we had gotten lucky in the lottery and gotten Dwight Howard instead of Childress. The one big man is the difference, IMO.

[Diesel]

AHf I have to disagree.

Our turnovers are not because we lack a big man.

Dwight Howard is still a mere infant in the game. i expect him to become a much better big man and this point to become relevant.. but right now.. what we have in terms of BIG Men i.e. Al/Zaza, compared to what they have in Howard/Battie is no competition. Al/Zaza produces more for now...

But our main problems were A lot of things that Jameer Nelson could have helped.

Think about it this year.

You exchange Al for Howard. I would love this by the way.. but yeah, we'd get better defensively and we'd rebound better... but we'd still lead the land in turnovers.

You exchange Lue for Nelson. Our offense would become probably the most efficient in the game. We'd be like Phoenix 2004-2005... Not a lot of defense, but nobody could play with us offensively. We'd truly outscore teams.

[AHF]

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AHf I have to disagree.

Our turnovers are not because we lack a big man.

Dwight Howard is still a mere infant in the game. i expect him to become a much better big man and this point to become relevant.. but right now.. what we have in terms of BIG Men i.e. Al/Zaza, compared to what they have in Howard/Battie is no competition. Al/Zaza produces more for now...

But our main problems were A lot of things that Jameer Nelson could have helped.

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Again, though, we are not a big man from being a perfect team, we are a big man away from being on par with Orlando. Their TOs were worse than ours - we don't have catching up to do in protecting the ball as compared to Orlando.

[Diesel]

You make a good point about their turnovers being worse than ours... Even Nelson's being worse than Lue's. But there's something lacking in our PG play... I can't put my finger on it.. Maybe it's playmaking... Maybe it's defense... I don't know but I do believe that Nelson would be a much needed upgrade over Lue.

As far as us getting to their level... the question is which team?

With Francis there, Orlando floundered.

When Francis was traded and Nelson took over... Orlando prospered.

In his 33 games as a starter, the Magic were 20-13... winning 60% of their games.

For us to be better than that team, I fear it will take more than just a big man.

[drzachary]

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I didn't say a big man was our only need.

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Lascar states (above)...

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the sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men.

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Umm, try again, Walter.

"The sole reason we are behind teams like Orlando is big men" is NOT THE SAME THING as saying "a big man is our only need."

He was comparing Atlanta to Orlando. Read closely!

[AHF]

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For us to be better than that team, I fear it will take more than just a big man.

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I agree Nelson would be a big upgrade for us. However, take away Chills and add Dwight Howard to our team and tell me whether you think we would be competitive (offering two different alignments for the Hawks based on whether you think Marvin or Zaza should start):

Lue/Salim - Nelson

Joe Johnson - Deshawn Stevenson

Marvin Williams/Josh Smith - Hedo Turkoglu

Josh Smith/Dwight Howard - Dwight Howard

Dwight Howard/Zaza Pachulia - Darko Milicic

I don't think we are behind in that comparison at all.

[drzachary]

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You may not like my position or how I post it DrZ, but you haven't disagreed with it. You've never stated you believe that MW is a player worth playing other, better players out of position, reaching for players or avoiding players in this draft we would otherwise avoid or seek respectively, or that we couldn't reasonably be better off trading MW than keeping him.

Humor is nice, but in the absence of argument it veils (uncomfortable) agreement.

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Speaking generally:

We've had Marvin for ... one season. He has outperformed, I'd guess, 90% of college freshmen ever to declare for the draft. My position is "give him a little time."

You are completely ignoring all the opinions of Marvin given by virtually everyone in the NBA pre-draft (Google is your friend), and ignoring his steady improvement through last season. You have a vendetta, plain and simple, and I don't see any possible way to talk rationally with a fanatic.

Speaking specifically:

I do not think Marvin is so astoundingly good, at this time, that we will force other players out of their natural positions. However, I don't agree that we even know these other players' hypothetical positions! What is Josh Smith? Can you tell me without a shadow of a doubt that he has to be a SF? He has to be a PF?

I do not think "reaching for players" is such a bad thing. Isn't that just called "drafting for need?" Don't we excoriate Burger King for not filling holes? When is drafting the best player available ("Marvin in 2005" -- The World) wrong and filling a need right? What was the thought process behind drafting Marvin? Was it "aw gosh, shucks, this player hasn't shown much, so let's draft him?" Was the 2006 draft part of the calculus? Did we have ANY idea where we'd be picking in the 2006 draft? Of course not.

I do not think Marvin is so astoundingly bad that we should trade him right now for 50 cents on the dollar. He's a project, he was known to be when we drafted him (again, Google is your friend), and it was widely predicted that he would NOT be the most productive player in his first season (I think you know what goes in the parentheses by this point.) That said, there certainly exist scenarios in which trading Marvin would be beneficial: trading Marvin for Chris Paul is one of them.

In any case, none of us is capable of foretelling the future. Jettisoning a cheap, young player who may blossom into something great would be foolish.