The Al Harrington Deal

[Johnnybravo4]

You also added some second rounders in that mix which isn't part of the discussion. With the remaining few players in each draft, list each of the stiffs that were drafted in the same draft.

[Final_quest]

I get the feeling that if Johnny Bravo were a GM his team would look something like the NY Knicks.

You mean I could get Steve Francis, and all I have to give up is 2 lousy draft picks? Sign me up.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

You also added some second rounders in that mix which isn't part of the discussion. With the remaining few players in each draft, list each of the stiffs that were drafted in the same draft.

---

2nd rounders are part of the discussion because you can draft those guys with a pick 15+. How would anything change if you picked Gilbert Arenas at #22 or if Rashard Lewis had been taken where he was expected to go in the teens instead of falling to the early second round? The point is that there are good players out there every year who are available to be taken at 15+ and we should be looking to get them.

BK has already drafted three of them with Josh Smith, Salim Stoudemire and Boris Diaw.

[Johnnybravo4]

Because the context of the conversation was the efficacy of the Hawks getting a first round pick from the pacers in exchange for Al. We still have our second round pick.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Because the context of the conversation was the efficacy of the Hawks getting a first round pick from the pacers in exchange for Al. We still have our second round pick.

---

A pick from the Pacers could be used to select nearly any of the players I listed in past drafts. That is its value. The value isn't to select the player taken at #18 in the 2000 draft per se, it is the ability to draft Magloire (#18), Michael Redd, or anyone else available at that position. By noting the high caliber of some of the players available at that position in prior drafts, you can understand the value of the pick.

I agree that a 15+ pick doesn't carry amazing value but you can really develop important assets for a team through players like that - players like Josh Smith. IMO, he is the most valuable asset on the Hawks roster not named Joe Johnson. It would be useful for assessing the value of a late lottery pick to note that he was available at #12 in the same way that noting those players is valuable to see what could be garnered with a mid-late first round pick.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Put it like this, I'd take a draft pick from the Warriors because I don't have faith in them having an outstanding record but def no draft pick from the Pacers. That pick will be in the 20s if we give them Al.

[jezmund]

Exactly Bus. Not only are we making Indiana better but we'd be getting a lesser pick and a contract that is almost as big (Tinsley or Foster). If we are taking a big contract back, I want a player with some trade value.

[Packfill]

The Hawks are not likely to get a player with trade value in a deal for Harrington. There just is not enough demand.

[twentythree]

But…

My sentence was:

Quote:

---

Name a

legit superstar

who was drafted 15+? That's something rare.

---

Your answer is:

Quote:

---

Finding

useful players

15+ in the draft isn't that rare

---

I see a difference in those sentences. A legit superstar is something different from a useful player.

Now let’s talk about facts as EDS says.

You said

Quote:

---

Well, All-Stars since 2000 who were not picked in the first fourteen picks in the draft in recent years include two-time MVP Steve Nash, J. O'Neal, A. Kirilenko, J. Magloire, G.Arenas, R.Lewis, B.Wallace, T. Parker, Ilgauskus, Ginobili, B. Miller, S. Cassell, M. Redd, R. Artest, A.Davis, A. Mason, M. Finley, V. Divac, and J. Stockton.

---

Even I don’t think Magloire, Lewis, Ilgauskas, Miller, Davis and Mason are “legit superstars” I will count all of your 14+ players. A total of 19.

There are a total of 175 all-star selections and 68 different players in since 2000. 19/68 is close to 28%.

28% is a rare value to me.

In fact we are talking about nearly the same thing. As I told in my very first post, next year’s first round draft pick has a good value. If we win the lottery, it will be perfect. If we won’t win it, I’ll be sorry. But having a first rounder is not a priority for us. We have to find another center first, and then we have to fill Harrington’s gap in our offensive game. Then we may think about next year’s draft.

Here’s a plan:

Offer a contract to Jackie Butler and see what happens first. If Knicks matches, go for Lorenzen Wright. Then, look for Troy Murphy for the trade. If it doesn’t happens, find another scorer from trade (Wilcox maybe?). Lastly, you can look for a 2007 1st rounder.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

But…

My sentence was:

Quote:

---

Name a

legit superstar

who was drafted 15+? That's something rare.

---

Your answer is:

Quote:

---

Finding

useful players

15+ in the draft isn't that rare

---

I see a difference in those sentences. A legit superstar is something different from a useful player.

---

Agreed. However, I don't believe we can trade Al Harrington for a legit superstar. For that reason, I don't think it is useful to discuss how likely we are to draft a legit superstar with the pick we acquire from trading Al. It think our goal with trading Al is to acquire a useful player at the low end or an All-Star at the high end.

I don't think we disagree here. I was just trying to steer the direction more towards what I thought we could and should expect for Al and pointing out that getting a pick 15+ as part of that package is getting something of real value - which I think JohnyBravo disputes.

Quote:

---

Now let’s talk about facts as EDS says.

You said

Quote:

---

Well, All-Stars since 2000 who were not picked in the first fourteen picks in the draft in recent years include two-time MVP Steve Nash, J. O'Neal, A. Kirilenko, J. Magloire, G.Arenas, R.Lewis, B.Wallace, T. Parker, Ilgauskus, Ginobili, B. Miller, S. Cassell, M. Redd, R. Artest, A.Davis, A. Mason, M. Finley, V. Divac, and J. Stockton.

---

Even I don’t think Magloire, Lewis, Ilgauskas, Miller, Davis and Mason are “legit superstars” I will count all of your 14+ players. A total of 19.

---

I agree on this. They aren't legit superstars. In fact, I don't think anyone other than perhaps Nash, Wallace, and Stockton are legit superstars. The others are outstanding players but not at the superstar level, IMO.

Quote:

---

There are a total of 175 all-star selections and 68 different players in since 2000. 19/68 is close to 28%.

28% is a rare value to me.

---

Getting 28% of the All-Stars with a pick 15+ demonstrates the value of that type of pick, IMO.

Quote:

---

In fact we are talking about nearly the same thing.

---

Agreed.

Quote:

---

As I told in my very first post, next year’s first round draft pick has a good value. If we win the lottery, it will be perfect. If we won’t win it, I’ll be sorry. But having a first rounder is not a priority for us. We have to find another center first, and then we have to fill Harrington’s gap in our offensive game. Then we may think about next year’s draft.

Here’s a plan:

Offer a contract to Jackie Butler and see what happens first. If Knicks matches, go for Lorenzen Wright. Then, look for Troy Murphy for the trade. If it doesn’t happens, find another scorer from trade (Wilcox maybe?). Lastly, you can look for a 2007 1st rounder.

---

I like an offer for Butler, too, and am confident we can have him at a reasonable price since it appears Isiah's spending power has been taken away from him given his lack of attempt to sign a FA or pursue a S&T to date in FA. Things change in NY and they have gobbs of money so that may not be accurate, though. In either case, I like us pursuing Butler.

Wright doesn't have much value to me but I would be willing to offer a low $$ contract for him as a backup C.

Murphy and Wilcox are not centers and are both flawed additions for us, IMO, since Wilcox doesn't play much defense and Murphy doesn't play any post offense. I don't think of them as being much of an additional at the price they command or are likely to command. I don't think either represents much of an upgrade on Al, although Murphy's rebounding would be useful. For that reason, I don't see either as filling our need for a center and don't see either as being a consistent offensive force. I would rather take my chances with a Josh Smith, Marvin Williams and Shelden Williams rotation at the 3/4 positions with limited minutes from Childress (who I see playing limited minutes at the 2-3 positions) and Batista in reserve.

I think regardless of what we do that acquiring a 2007 first round pick is a good thing, though. It is a very talented draft and keeping a steady pipeline of talented young players is a good thing regardless of our position in the standings.