Is this the team envisioned after the nuclear op?

[chillzatl]

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Chill and MW sat last year. SW is to take Al's place. Chill and MW both sit this year. That's a #6 and #2 pick sitting when we have Speedy and ZaZa as our bookends.

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Once again, it's about minutes. Between the three positions, there are plenty of minutes for Childress, Marvin, JOsh and Sheldon. You use the word "sit" as if it's all they will be doing. The reality is that they will all get significant minutes and they will all have a significant role, which is what matters.

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I think we all have a pretty good idea that while "anything can happen" you wouldn't want to hinge your franchise's future on one of them becoming a goto superstar, particularly when one of them must be benched to allow for the other two to fully develop.

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Why wouldn't we? isn't that why you draft? Very few players are drafted under teh guise of "sure thing". every team that drafts high does so with the mindset that this guy can be a star player or a game changer. To suggest that our guys can't do that after 1 and 2 years respectively, clearly shows how little faith you have in their potential.

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Of the 3 JS has the highest upside, but it appears to be as a stat stuffing Sf and not a goto variety. That's very good but I'm doubtful that wins you titles.

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That's dumb to say. More pointed, it's dumb to say that a 20 year old who has the desire to improve, a wealth of physical talent and ability and is only 20 years old can only be X or Y, but not Z.

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Utterly incongruous! We aren't expected to be playoff contenders but BK is drafting and signing as if we are?!? That makes sense.

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The first phases of rebuilding have to stop somewhere and that's where we are. We can't continue to draft raw project players and ever hope to get out of phase 1 rebuilding. Drafting players who can counter your weaknesses (defense) and fill holes is nothing more than common sense. Whether or not I think we can make the playoffs has little to do with it.

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Chill, it is very interesting that you accuse me of undervaluing the talent of our young players. Generally, fan-sites OVER-VALUE players. Perhaps, I'm valuing them about right, but in the context of a fan-site where MW's rookie year generally is somehow very encouraging when it comes to superstar potential my opinion is outside the bell-curve of extreme fan-dom

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Using the world undervalue is just my attempt to be nice. To be frank, you hate on Marvin and you are now setting the stage to hate on Sheldon because you have your set in stone opinion of their potential and skill levels and nothing short of proving you wrong will change it.

I found it interesting that while you repeatedly claim that Josh SMith is 25% better than Marvin will ever be. You are now putting definitive caps on him as well. If Josh can only be a stat stuffing small forward, what does that leave for Marvin? I don't even need to touch on how little you think of Sheldons ability.

[Peoriabird]

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Livingston/Lue

JJ/later acquired role playing Sg/Sf

JS

Bargnani

ZaZa/defensive role playing big

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statstist 2% 3% spg apg Tpg Pts.

player A 42% 12% .85 4.7 2.2 6.3

player B 42% 18% 1.5 4.3 1.7 9.9

Which player is Shawn livingston and which is Speedy Claxton?

[chillzatl]

[Peoriabird]

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Livingston/Lue

JJ/later acquired role playing Sg/Sf

JS

Bargnani

ZaZa/defensive role playing big

or

ANY of the 3 franchise Pgs last year

JJ

JS

Bargnani

ZaZa/Defensive role playing big

W

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Sorry walter, I don't see much difference in this team and what BK has done. In fact I think that your team has a lot less depth

[Guest Walter]

Interesting. I'm not GM so all I can do is second guess even if I indicated the problems with drafting MW (over 3 franchise Pgs) and SW (over Roy or trading up for superstar potential) BEFORE the instances occured. Is second guessing a product of timing or lack of power. If it's the former, I can't be accused of it. If it's the later, we all can.

...

Without the drafting of MW a bold move might not be required. With his drafting it definately is. I've repeatedly stated possible "bold moves" that return similar talent and/or acquire (potential) superstar talent. Regardless, few could have seen much less spelled out 1/10th of the moves that have happened this offseason, many significant. Many possibilities are out there and they couldn't be much less appealing than drafting SW to sit MW.

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I don't agree with everything Knight has done, but I do realize that it's only been 2 years. The Hawks haven't played a game yet in year 3, so no one really knows how well the team will come together, but you don't build a championship from scratch in 3 years when you start over. Especially when you have the youngest roster in the NBA.

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That is the point. BK made a mistake last year setting us back a year, he traded away next year's pick moving up the time table for himself, and yet is already drafting for role players. BK is trying to win now at the expense of the future. He's not trading for Big Dawg thank goodness, but in his own way he's abandoned his philosophy for meager returns NOW.

Moreover, exactly how do you see a team with 4 young forwards "coming togethter"? Somebody has to be traded, right?

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I do know, though, that the quick-fix, bold move types often fail, and set the franchise back further, a la Babcock.

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I'm not suggesting ANYTHING like Babs. Rather than trade a top 3 pick away for SAR (example), trade UP for a potential superstar like Bargnani. Trade MW for a similar young talent at a position of need or a package of Al with MW for a superstar. Most of my suggestions do not involve less rebuilding time, they involve more equal dispersion of talent across the position spectrum and the procurement of a legit potential superstar who creates mismatches and exploits weaknesses.

W

[Guest Walter]

...in 3 years than our existing team.

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Traded Chill and #5 for him.

Traded MW for Livingston.

Livingston/Lue

JJ/later acquired role playing Sg/Sf

JS

Bargnani

ZaZa/defensive role playing big

or

ANY of the 3 franchise Pgs last year

JJ

JS

Bargnani

ZaZa/Defensive role playing big

W

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So these are playoff teams?

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[Peoriabird]

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...in 3 years than our existing team.

So your rebuilding time frame is 6 years. We shall See. I'll follow the players that you mentioned and remind you from time to time of their progress

[Guest Walter]

After Deng and Iggy are both slightly better than Childress.

After CP3 is many times better than MW.

And once Roy is shown to be better than SW,...

...or will it take more lackluster drafts?

W

[Peoriabird]

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After Deng and Iggy are both slightly better than Childress.

After CP3 is many times better than MW.

And once Roy is shown to be better than SW,...

...or will it take more lackluster drafts?

W

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Dude you just want to agitate people. We know your position now. Lets see who is right! You gave your plan 6 years. So give BK's plan 6 years. Isn't that fair?

[Lascar78]

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After Deng and Iggy are both slightly better than Childress.

After CP3 is many times better than MW.

And once Roy is shown to be better than SW,...

...or will it take more lackluster drafts?

W

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hahaha!

-first claim, they are all on par. Even you say "slightly better". who cares?

-second claim, Marvin was a known 2-3 year project, and you judge after one day -- oops I mean year

-third claim, your guess, he hasn't even played a single summer league game, much less an NBA game.

[swolehawk2]

For me, I think the bulk of the uncertainty lies with Woodson.....I believe even if Al walked and we got nothing...then signed Franciso Elson and a healthy Cato ...if this team played as HARD as Charlotte or Chicago it has enough to make the playoffs. They would not always play well against certain teams but if they laid it on the line every minute defensively and RAN...dictating tempo instead of accepting it ...we would be in the playoffs this year.

Thing is... we would be deep enough to run and play tough help D for an entire game/year.

Claxton/Lue/Ivey

JJ/Salim

Marvin/Chills

Smoove/Shelden/Batista

ZZ/Cato/Elson

Playoffs this year...then how far the core would go would ultimately fall on the maturation of our youngins.

[tmac13]

I am trying to figure out exactly what you want Walter..You simply rant, rave and [censored] in post after post..What is your end goal?..Why don't you wait to slam Sheldon AFTER he fails since your so certain he will..When Roy is annointed the next Magic Johnson you can claim victory, of what I am unsure..

I have been no BK nuthugger..I have been more critical than most, but you at least have to give the new guys a chance..To say Roy is any more proven or likely to succeed than Sheldon is absurd..Sheldon was as good as it gets at the best program in the country..If Sheldon has missed entire seasons to knee injuries you would be blasting him as damaged goods, but since it serves your point of view you choose to ignor this fact about Roy..To say Roy gets more assists than his point guards is the equivalent to saying since JJ led the Hawks in assists he is a pointguard..We all know he is not..

If you have a point, or a solution, state it, if not, just keep bitching..

[sick_five]

Like I said, you should go apply. Because Chris Paul had a better rookie year, it doesn't mean he will be better overall. Maybe he will, but you nor anyone knows that.

Roy is a rookie, and I believe he will be good, but it amazes me that you will state how good a guy will be before you've seen him play in the NBA, but you beat down Hawks players who are even younger than him. Do you realize that Roy came on his JUNIOR YEAR in Washington... let's see, that means if he would have came out after his freshman or sophmore years that he probably wouldn't have been drafted in the 1st Round. He's older than Marvin and Josh Smith, has never played a game in the NBA, and you claim that he will be a great PG, ALREADY! Maybe he will, but you seem to have a double standard when it comes to the Hawks' young players.

You criticize BK for drafting BPA with Marvin (there are differing opinions, but the concensus considered him BPA), then criticize him for not drafting BPA.. make up your mind.

Again, as Lascar stated before, you can make fantasy trades all day as an armchair GM, but you don't know what it would have cost to trade up for Bargnani... on top of what you would have given up, he may never amount to much, but if he does, it will take several years.... how many years are you willing to wait? Does anyone else see the irony?

[AHF]

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You criticize BK for drafting BPA with Marvin (there are differing opinions, but the concensus considered him BPA), then criticize him for not drafting BPA.. make up your mind.

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Frankly, I don't know that BK even abandoned his BPA philosophy with Shelden. BPA does not mean player with the most unrealized potential. It simply means best player without regard to position or player with the most long-term potential. With the way BK zeroed in on Shelden it seems entirely possible to me that BK thought that Shelden would be the best player in this draft of the players available to him - over guys like Roy, O'Bryant, Foye, etc.

For example, you can make a solid case that taking Kirk Hinrich over Darko Milicic is taking BPA if your scouts tell you and you believe that Hinrich will be the better player between the two at the end of the day. Likewise, taking Marvin second is BPA if you believe he will be the best player at the end of the day.

Just throwing that out there.

[CBAreject]

Looks like a lot of people are ragging on Walter for being a negative Nancy. However, I must admit that this isn't the team I envisioned when we tore the team down. I wanted a guy like Bosh, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, Howard, Paul, who I thought projected as a BONA FIDE first team All-NBA player. I thought we would draft one of those during the 3 years of rebuilding. However, we have not done managed to do that (mostly due to poor timing--just missing the Oden and 'Bron drafts on either end). I, like the rest of you, have hopes that Marvin Williams will become that player, but I don't see him achieving superstar status.

The difference between my view and Walter's is I am not nearly so pessimistic. We must admit what we've got. We have some very good assets. I think we have a fringe All-Star level SG in Joe Johnson. I think Josh Smith projects as a semi-star type forward. Marvin Williams projects similarly, but, only because he is more of an unknown, he has a shot at All-Star status. Shelden Williams projects as a solid PF with a shot at All-defensive team status. Josh Childress is already a top sixth-man in the league. Zaza Pachulia is an affordable but productive center. I've always like Speedy Claxton and coveted him for the Hawks.

These are good assets! There is no dominant All-Star among them, however. As such, I do not see the team I envisioned 3 years ago. Still, I am optimistic because I feel we are not yet done. We have young players who are tradeable. We still have cap-room. We don't really know how good Marvin, Smoove, or Shelden will be.

[CBAreject]

I have not complained openly about drafting Shelden, since draft night. In fact, I said more than 3 months ago that I thought he may be the 3rd or 4th best player in this draft in a few years. The trouble, I said, was that we didn't know exactly who the top 3 would be. Any one of about 8 players has potential to be substantially better.

I did complain about drafting Shelden on draft night only because we passed on Roy. I think that Roy will be better, and I think he could've been more valuable to us. I think we have to admit that. I'm still not complaining about the Williams pick because I think he'll be good for us. However, Roy had the potential to form a very special backcourt with JJ. I really wanted to see it. Shelden Williams doesn't have that game changing potential, in my opinion.

[Yubs]

Very interesting, but uhm... how do you REALLY feel, Walter?

[Buzzard]

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If JS on the team, MW is a BU summer league player. I fail to see the brilliance of this plan.

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Summer league = rookies and 2nd year players. When do you think Smoove was drafted?

If you are going to be constantly critical; you should at least know something about the subject matter.

MWll should be the starter at the three all day on that team; unless they decide to give the rookies a long look instead.

You really do not have a clue about this league do you?

[Buzzard]

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I did complain about drafting Shelden on draft night only because we passed on Roy. I think that Roy will be better, and I think he could've been more valuable to us. I think we have to admit that. I'm still not complaining about the Williams pick because I think he'll be good for us. However, Roy had the potential to form a very special backcourt with JJ. I really wanted to see it. Shelden Williams doesn't have that game changing potential, in my opinion.

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I complained for about a week then accepted it. My thinking is he compares favorably to KMart and could be a better version of Boozer (same offense better defense). I am like you in that I wanted to see that big talented backcourt BK has been hinting at for three years. But getting a post player we can count on night in night out was just as big a need as well.

So I am on the Shelson bandwagon and I hope he turns out to be a really good go to guy for us down low. Its not like we don't need one!

[Traceman]

and that is a soft as butter team that shows NO improvement in our biggest area of weakness - interior D.

You have already anointed Bargnani a star but he could be closer to Tskitishvili than Nowitzki. He is NOT ready to step in and be a big time contributor. Hell, TOR traded Villanueva and he STILL is not expected to be a starter when the season begins.

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The fact that Bargnani, who will wear No.7 this season, will not start, at least early in the season, actually should help in his development, Mitchell said.

"With Bryan here, we're adding some veterans that are proven players, which will take some pressure off him," Mitchell said. "We're not relying on him to go out and get 20 points and 10 rebounds every night. We got a guy (Bosh) who can do that."

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I'll bet Marvin would start at SF for TOR right now.

As for Livingston, why is it a done deal that he will ever be great? he MIGHT be but he might not be either. He has two seasons under his belt and all he has proven is that he can't stay healthy. In addition, he is nearly a year older than Marvin and yet Marvin's rookie stats were every bit as good, if not better, than Livingston's stats in EITHER of his 2 NBA seasons.

BK could have done some things differently but so far, I don't think what we have is that bad. I'll take my chances with what we have.

By the way, in your 2nd proposal, how do you know we would have even had the #5 to trade along with Chillz to acquire your man Bargnani (even if TOR had wanted to do that)? If we had drafted Paul and he had played like he did for NO/OK, would we not more than likely have been drafting at 12 or below like NO/OK did? I actually think we might have drafted lower than that. We probably would have been looking at Simmons or Armstrong instead of Bargnani. Paul/Simmons (or Armstrong) or Williams/Williams. Time will tell which duo is better.