Hawks should be playing right now...

[sturt]

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These idiots just have a strong desire to criticize everything Billy Knight does.

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And you are the idiot that tries to defend everything he does.

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I enjoyed 5th grade, but this is the reason I see no good reason to want to go back.

So who's really the idiot??? I look at it this way...

Right- and left-wing "extremists" are criticized for perspectives that ignore other perspectives.

Moderates are criticized for taking on strange mixtures of ideology with no consistent foundation other than whatever is dictated by the latest opinion polls.

Those criticisms are justified insofar as the politicians are not self-aware enough to attempt to attempt intellectual honesty apart from what others think. We may disagree, but we ordinarily respect a person, even a politician, when we're convinced that their motivation is right even if their decision may seem errant. However, if we sense that a person is following a person or pursuing a kind of adolescent rebellion rather than a consistent line of reason, then we often lose respect.

I enjoy reading fanatic's posts, and he's often got something worth consideration. He's not an idiot.

KB has been a voice of reason around here for far too long for a relative newcomer to get away with suggesting he's an idiot. KB is absolutely not an idiot.

(For my part, I associate Lascar more strongly with taking the company-line on everything coming and going than KB... and yet, there are some reasonable underpinnings to the company-line that, at least stand up to debate on the surface of things. Though I consider some of his opinions short-sighted and even phobic in certain ways, Lascar is not an idiot.)

We're all just fans with strong opinions, all attempting to show each other why what we're saying is more right than what others are saying.

It gets out of hand sometimes, though, and when it degenerates into playground talk, it makes for a testosterone-bloated, chest-beating exercise that's more reflective of how juvenile we are than how wise we are.

So, I'm just endorsing some calm... and some respect toward the person, even though you feel great disrespect for their opinion.

Have faith that in the war of ideas, your opinion will surface to be superior, instead of resorting to assaulting people. When you don't, you only make yourself out to be weak.

[TexasPete]

Fanatic, apparently you and I are among the few who sees SW's numbers as a problem. Normally, I'm not too into the Rocky Mtn Review as a great guage of an NBA career. But I didn't see this much ineptitude coming. Those are some BAD numbers. Tonight was the first time I actually puked looking at a box score.

[sturt]

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Sturt, your such a voice of reason. The svengali of HS...

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Kind words, probably not deserved in the macro, but certainly appreciated.

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I read on this board, ad nauseum, about how this kid was a 14 and 10 guy this year. How he would start right out of the chute. Some guys were 13 and 8 with 2 blocks...on and on. Hell, I started to get optimistic. Some here had legit concerns about his lack of athleticism but the BK believers always shoot everyone down. KB21 was talking about what a sensible pick he was...BK made the pick...must be sensible.

Shelden has been far worse than even I imagined. BK better pull off a coupe in this deal with Al because we just drafted a PF but we still don't have one. I could have stomached this deal better if we had just worked out Shelden out. Not to mention the top 6 players in the draft.

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All I'm saying is it takes time and many experiments before one can make a determination that people can actually depend upon... eg, scientists conduct a lot of tests on animals before a drug graduates to being tested on humans... and they conduct a lot of tests on humans before the FDA allows it to be put on the open market. Every game is an experiment, and to-date, there have been a lot of college-level experiments performed on Shelden, and but three somewhat-advanced experiments performed. Why rush to judgment based on such relatively insufficient data?

With all due respect to those who may have fallen off of vegetable picking vehicles, BK didn't just fall off the turnip truck and land one of 30 general manager jobs in the NBA. And neither did the majority of those who make a living evaluating NBA talent, and who agreed with the relative safety of picking Shelden.

Doesn't mean mistakes aren't made... in fact, mistakes are often made, otherwise every year, you'd see the 1st pick do better than the 2nd pick, do better than the 3rd, do better than the 4th, and so on. There is both science AND art to the job. But some execs show over time that they have an affinity for making fewer mistakes than others.

I personally was skeptical of BK when he was hired. I still don't know that things are going to work out, and I continue to criticize him for strongly espousing a given philosophy for player acquisition or development, and then turning around and showing no respect for his supposed philosophy with his actions... big red flag on that one.

But truth be told, it's been a long time since we had this many consecutive drafts actually produce guys who earn a slot in the rotation... we went years having only Alan Henderson to show for the work put into draft night. Heck, some of BK's second rounders have far exceeded the accomplishments of many previous GM's first rounders. Not only that, but how does one look at ZaZa's acquisition and not assign some slight credibility to BK's talent recognition?

No. BK deserves some lattitude with his selection of Shelden just as much as he deserved some lattitude with his selection of Marvin. And as with his predecessor, Pete Babcock, time will show whether that lattitude was deserved. You may not like that we have to give him that time, but you would have to give ANY person time to see if their blueprint worked out. BK may not ascend to legendary GM status, but like Shelden, he is a "safe" pick -- ie, there's enough data there to believe he's at least as competent as 15 other GMs.

Time, though, will tell. Not three games-worth of summer league time, mind you, but an extended period of time... will... tell.

[Seano]

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Not to mention the top 6 players in the draft.

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That is what pissed me off most of all. IMO it was inexcusable not to work those players out. Why on earth wouldn't you want to cover all your bases, and see all these players working out for you firsthand??? That seems like the absolute minimum a responsible GM would do for his team heading into the draft. I will never understand BK's failure to check everyone out personally.

[Guest]

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Fanatic, apparently you and I are among the few who sees SW's numbers as a problem. Normally, I'm not too into the Rocky Mtn Review as a great guage of an NBA career. But I didn't see this much ineptitude coming. Those are some BAD numbers. Tonight was the first time I actually puked looking at a box score.

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I guess you never caught my sarcasm. Sure his numbers look bad, but its freaking summer league. In the RMR there was a game with 80 fouls. The Hawks average 43.4 fouls per game while their opponents average 42.8. This is a joke. The RMR is not a barometer for NBA success OR failure. Yet you want to bring up that Shelden has more fouls than rebounds, which is normal for the Hawks considering they average 32.4 rebounds per game.

I have said it before, give Shelden pre-season and at least 10 games into the season before you even start debate on how he is in the NBA.

I say this, but I know tomorrow you will be talking about the game and try to convince everyone that he is a bust. He may or may not be a bust, but its insane for you to be arguing this in the summer.

[Plainview1981]

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KB has been a voice of reason around here for far too long for a relative newcomer to get away with suggesting he's an idiot. KB is absolutely not an idiot.

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I think he is in the way he backs Billy with no questions. I couldn't stand backing somebody in that manner. Nobody is without faults.

[SwingmanCentral]

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But truth be told, it's been a long time since we had this many consecutive drafts actually produce guys who earn a slot in the rotation.

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It's also been a long time since we've had this many top 10 picks and this is the same franchise that has given guys Hanno Mottola and Royal Ivey a starting spot. The reality is that this is a bottom 5 team in the league for 2 straight years. Cracking the rotation isn't a significant accomplishment (in fact, the guys that didn't have turned out a bit better).

[sturt]

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But truth be told, it's been a long time since we had this many consecutive drafts actually produce guys who earn a slot in the rotation.

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It's also been a long time since we've had this many top 10 picks and this is the same franchise that has given guys Hanno Mottola and Royal Ivey a starting spot. The reality is that this is a bottom 5 team in the league for 2 straight years. Cracking the rotation isn't a significant accomplishment (in fact, the guys that didn't have turned out a bit better).

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Point well-taken. BK's had a better pool of candidates by virtue of higher draft picks.

And what's more, it's easy to forget sometimes even for us Hawks fans just how successful the Hawks were for so many years in terms of making the playoffs... that didn't lend itself to great drafts, and would suggest that the front office did a particularly good job of trades and free agency acquisitions.

But even with all of the losing we've done since the Rider debacle, the incessant exit from the 1st and 2nd round of the playoffs all those years still sours my stomach in a real way. There is, actually, a part of me that really enjoys watching this team be re-built far more than watching the previous teams end every year banging their head against a ceiling that couldn't be conquered for the Kenny Norman contracts that crippled the roster.

Still, there are plenty of GMs who have eggregiously flat-tired even with a steady diet of top 10 picks, and BK isn't one of them... at least, not yet. And that his evaluation of Joe Johnson appears to have been so right-on, that his evaluation of ZaZa appears to have been so right-on, that his evaluation of JSmoove gives every reason to think it was right on... plus how highly people thought of him with the Grizzlies and with the Pacers... BK is, at least, a middle of the pack GM, and to me, an admitted optimist, that gives us a chance worthy of some enthusiasm that his blueprint is going to be successful.

[Diesel]

They dominated SL. Forget Shelden... give us a SL dominator!!! Because it's all about the Summer League!

[Yeti]

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On the flip side SW played great defense today. He is coming around.

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Great! Where did you get that from. I didn't anything in the writeups or boxscores that indicates that. His lack of scoring doesn't bother me, that's not why we got him. It was for rebounding and defense - rebounding ain't there yet, so it's good to hear about the D. Did you see the game?

[Yeti]

OK, SW needs more time to show what he has.

Some of us are upset by that because we heard 50,000 times how he is "ready now." That was the basis for taking him. Now he is in the summer league and playing like every other rookie - first round, second, and undrafted. Nothing special yet. But he's playing against guys who weren't supposed to be "ready now." - - So now we have to be patient and let him learn just like every other rookie and hope he is just a slow learner. He IS a Hawk and we have to support him. Let's see how he does playing every day against Smoove, Esteban, and Zaza - that ought to help him. Just don't expect people to ignore the few facts we do have from the summer league stats. Woody has some work to do.

[Lascar78]

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KB has been a voice of reason around here for far too long for a relative newcomer to get away with suggesting he's an idiot. KB is absolutely not an idiot.

(For my part, I associate Lascar more strongly with taking the company-line on everything coming and going than KB... and yet, there are some reasonable underpinnings to the company-line that, at least stand up to debate on the surface of things. Though I consider some of his opinions short-sighted and even phobic in certain ways, Lascar is not an idiot.)

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1) Why are you talking about me? I'm completely uninvolved in this thread and have hardly posted for weeks. You must really be obsessed.

2) I find it laughable that you think I take the company line more than KB, and you call him a voice of reason. If I thought others shared this opinion, I would be worried. Fortunately I do not.

I don't mind KB, but he has kissed BK's butt more than I have ever seen any man kiss any other man's butt, ever. He calls anyone with any criticism for BK an idiot, his opinions sway vastly as soon as BK makes a comment about any player or is rumored to be interested in a player, and he sees virtually no fault in any move of BK's. I mean KB may be a smart guy, but the way he's behaved over the past year and a half has reached epic comedic proportions in that he refuses to acknowledge any criticism of any kind for BK. He is as far off the deep end in his love for BK that Diesel is in his hate of Marvin.

I have consistently said that I reserved judgement on how well BK has performed until I saw what whether he could put a cohesive team together this year. To name just a few criticisms I have been critical of the childress pick, the nazr trade, the lack of acknowledgement of our need for a PG (until this offseason). In this draft, while I can live with Shelden, I wanted Foye, period. And after going for a big in the first, I thought we should go after a PG in the second, namely dee brown or guillermo diaz. I would probably give BK a B to this point. Great contract management, great patience, very good infusion of young talent, not much a cohesive team yet, and not enough veterans to guide the youth.

I usually defend BK when people (like the OP here) point to the record or the team as if it's supposed to be a finished product, which is a totally short-sighted view. A complete rebuild goes in stages, and the goal is the finished team 4-5 years down the line. When you evaluate the team in years 1 and 2, what matters isn't the record but how the future of the team is shaping up.

To say that I tote the company line more than KB says a lot more about you than it does about me.

3) Name one opinion of mine that is phobic, and please enlighten me as to what it is that I am so afraid of.

[Diesel]

First off, SL means absolutely nothing.

Secondly, Ready Now? There's no such thing for a rookie. Every Rookie has to adjust to the NBA. Every rookie. Not many come right out of the stalls dominating. You have to figure that it will take him time to learn the offensive sets, the defensive positions, and his teammates...

It really makes me laugh really hard that you feel that after 3 days of practice with guys who probably aren't going to make the team that Shelden or any rookie should excell in an arena that emphasizes shooting and one on one play.

I would hold your horses.

What you can gleen from SL is weather or not he's aggressive and certain fundamentals. However, all this boxscore commentary is ridiculous.

[f_town]

"What you can gleen from SL is weather or not he's aggressive and certain fundamentals. However, all this boxscore commentary is ridiculous." - Diesel

"Those are some BAD numbers. Tonight was the first time I actually puked looking at a box score." - Texas Puto

Diesel as the voice of reason? God help us all

[TexasPete]

Diesel, you miss my point. Of course there have been numerous SL dominators that couldn't play worth a flip once there real NBA careers got underway. Here is the difference with SW. His numbers are the absolute worst of any of the #1 draft choices who have actually played. The other side of the coin is "how many players were this bloody bad and then turned it around once there careers got started"? The answer is a lot less than the summer sensation's who didn't do well in the real league.

Does SW poor play indicate a bust? Its far too early to tell. But for him to be playing the worst ball of any #1 draft choice is not comforting. I get the sense that many people on here will defend him regardless when inisde they are just as concerned as the rest of us. Shelden' numbers in this summer league have given plenty of ammunition to the hundreds of fans who booed lustily when he was announced on draft night. He has dug himself a mental and maybe physical hole that he needs to figure out how to get out of. I hope that he does. Its too early label him a bust. As a top 5 pick he will get more than his share of chances. But he has looked less ready for prime time than any other #1 draft choice and excuse me for being a little concerned about it.

[Yeti]

Actually, Diesel, I think I agree with everything you said. But you miss the point. By emphasizing "ready now" there were some expectations that he may not contribute be a franchise player but he'd step right in and contribute right away. Less time needed to develop. We were told he may not have the "upside" of the other players but he was a solid dominating force in the middle. OK.

Then we hit the summer leagues, and yes, they mean little. But Bargnani, Roy, Morrison, Foye, Thomas, Gay, and even Aldridge all managed to impress a little. Every one of them was put in the same situation as SW and every one of them met expectations. SW hasn't - YET. (but the week is not over either.) - - So don't close your eyes to reality and discount the SL completely. They don't mean much - but they do show SW is not ready now. He's just another rookie. He may still turn out to be a great player; but now he's behind the other top picks, not ahead of them.

[KB21]

You don't know enough about the game to question Billy Knight, just as you don't know enough about medicine to question me.

People who simply don't know enough shouldn't be questioning things. It isn't their place to question these things. Billy actually has more self control than I do, because I'd quickly put you back into your place if you ever questioned me about how I do my job...or the job I will be doing in two years when I graduate from medical school.

[DJlaysitup]

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...It really makes me laugh really hard that you feel that after 3 days of practice with guys who probably aren't going to make the team that Shelden or any rookie should excell in an arena that emphasizes shooting and one on one play...

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Yeah D, my guess is Shelden is used to a certain style of controlled play and now he's out there with a fairly disorganized bunch. Probably frustrated and trying to force things at this point.

I've watched parts of a good few of the LV games on nba tv and one thing stands out. I turned on a PHXg ame and PHX was killin there opponents like 57-38. The announcers were saying how well the PHX "system" was working and how they were getting easy baskets - yet they were playing mostly new guys - Nash wasn't on the floor(?).

[OGRat]

I agree with the "ready now" argument, but this is Summer League and there are too many variables to attempt to evaluate a player based on a box score. Variables like coaching, refs enforcement of rules, offensive sets, other team's focus, player experiments, player health and fitness, player exposure due to less talented team mates, etc.

What I am saying is that there is no context for the boxscore b/c we could not see the game, and I have never seen a SL game.

While I do have some concerns about the fact that the other teams consistently outrebound us, low percentage of assists on our made fgs, and we turn the ball over too much, I also see hope in the way we get to the line, the shooting percentages and the fact that the game summary indicates that the team's defense was a factor in the win. But I do not want to get too excited or distraught over any of this until I can see it in context.

[TexasPete]

KB21, this isn't the old Soviet Union. People here question things all the time, its the way its done. All day. Every day. BK will be fired within the next year. Mark it down. Two of the ATL spirit back him and two are very guarded but are giving him some rope. Just for future reference there are people in every walk of professional life who are overmatched. Your comment about nobody have the credentials to question this man is ridiculous.

Frankly, I find your constant defending of EVERYTHING this man does a little creepy.