True Ballhogging

[b3bawla]

I was just perusing the stats from the other summer leagues and I came across this amazing stat. In the Vegas Summer League Gerald Green played 155 minutes in the summer league and ended up with one more assists than I did (for a grand total of 1). How is that possible? That is so beyond Kobe-esque ballhogging. This is on that Kelly Leak Bad News Bears level. I had heard you guys talk about guys only trying to make shots for themselves in the summer league but this is just amazing.

Think about this...If Green were to average an assist every 155 minutes and played 30 minutes a game over an 82 game season...he would get about 16 assists for that season.

To quote Christopher Walken... "Wowie Wow Wow Wow!!!!"

[txsting]

I think there's a lot to what you're saying. Do you think this ball hogging might be commonplace, especially among guards, in summer league? I suspect it could also be hurting Shelden.

Big men often need to get the ball in a specific place, at the right time, in order to be in position to score. Look at our guards in summer league - Salim is playing most of the PG minutes, and it's possible (I haven't seen the games) that he isn't doing a very good job of feeding the ball inside (or SW can't get position). He's certainly scoring a lot, and not getting very many assists. Also, keep in mind that the other guards that we have are trying to make an impression in order to get a job, and that means they have to score or make flashy plays in order to give other GMs a hint of their talent.

I'm not sure why Shelden's not rebounding any better. I need someone to give me a good theory on that so that I can calm down.

Sorry to turn this into a bit of a Shelden thread.

[chillzatl]

of course it is. Summer leagues are nothing more than exibition ball. In those games the people who can get their own shots always look better than the guys who can't. The games simply aren't about team play becuase there is no TEAM in the first place. Just a bunch of guys thrown together.

As far as green is concerned, he's a SG. He's doing what he should be doing. If he can score 25 per game and shoot a good %, nobody will care if he only gets 1 apg.

[b3bawla]

I got to watch that Jazz game and came to realize that his lack of offensive output was mostly because he didn't make any confident moves with his back to the basket. However, it is very true that Salim and Grundy only got him one easy basket.

In regards to the rebounding...the officiating is TERRIBLE!!!! There is absolutely no flow. All those free throws means less rebounds. Now that's not an excuse. Shelden is blocking out well but his hands are looking suspect. But after watching the game I'm a lot less concerned.

[DJlaysitup]

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...I'm not sure why Shelden's not rebounding any better. I need someone to give me a good theory on that so that I can calm down...

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From what I've seen watching parts of the LV games (and I imagine ours are much the same), guys are throwing up bombs from everywhere. They either go in or turn into long rebounds. Worst place to be is often under the basket. I would imagine there are a lot of guards with more rebounds than power forwards.

Add in the fact that they are 40 minute games and the officiating is lousy and it makes sense.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Shelden Williams definitely did not get the ball on the block in that first game. He was calling for it aggresively a few times but it seemed the only time he got the ball was when he was far outside the paint like on the baseline which is not a good position for him to start which although he made a couple of nice moves, it led to some travelling calls and a turnover or two.

So his low point total was more of a product of him not getting the ball in the right position than him just plain missing.

[DJlaysitup]

Yeah BBiB...from what I remember of trying to follow the 1st game via JazzFanz posts - Salim was like 1 for 10 in the first (20 minute) half. Between him jackin shots and other guys doing their thing, Shelden probably didn't see much on the offensive end.

I think Milsap was a tough matchup for him too (though I didn't see the game).

I realize it's just SL, but I can't help but be more concerned about Woody playing Salim at the point than I am about Shelden. Realistically, who knows what Woody really plans to do though...it just experiment time now.

[exodus]

Salim looked horrible at the point, or normal I should say.

Shelden looked fine until he got the ball in his hands. When he got the ball he was like what do i do now. He was very indecisive.

[swolehawk2]

Exodus...u still think MArvin/Smoove won't be our starting forwards when the season opens?

I think Shelden will end up starting at the 5 for us, within the next 3 years.

They need to let Salim do what he does.

[exodus]

Yes. Smith will start at the 3 and Shelden at the 4. In order for Marvin to start he has to earn it during the regular season, like Smith did.

And no Shelden won't ever start at center. He has said himself that he is a 4 and since his standing reach is 4" shorter than Marvin he is way too short to play center.

If Shelden doesn't start at the 4 that would be like admitting that they made a mistake drafting him. The only way Smith will start at the 4 over Shelden is if he badly outplays Shelden at the 4 during the season.

[swolehawk2]

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Yes. Smith will start at the 3 and Shelden at the 4. In order for Marvin to start he has to earn it during the regular season, like Smith did.

Are you serious?

Marvin started to earn his spot last year..were you not watching.

So the staff says Marvin great way to finish the season, we need you to really work hard this summer be more of a leader to help this franchise take the next step...Marvin does everything asked and they reward him by starting a rookie over him that has not earned squat?

Yeah that will happen.

[exodus]

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Marvin started to earn his spot last year..were you not watching.

So the staff says Marvin great way to finish the season, we need you to really work hard this summer be more of a leader to help this franchise take the next step...Marvin does everything asked and they reward him by starting a rookie over him that has not earned squat?

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Marvins numbers paled in comparison to Smith.

You have this warped view that somehow if Shelden starts that he would be starting over Marvin. In case you haven't noticed they play different positions.

Why do you think they drafted Shelden? Their logic for drafting him is that he filled a need. If they felt Smith was ready to start at the 4 they never would have drafted Shelden in the first place. Duh.

[DJlaysitup]

Marvin's apparently getting stronger is apparently a big plus for making him a multi-threat slashing SF who doesn't shy away from contact inside.

Being a full time PF is a different story (IMO). If that's what's going to happen it may take more time.

[swolehawk2]

Smoove is and will be a better 4 when the season starts.

If Shelden does not start at the 5 this season, he does not start.

But we can put some money on it if you like.

"Marvins numbers paled in comparison to Smith."

Watch the games, u seem to be concerned with stats....Marvin/Smoove started to ball at the end of last year.

With the addition of Speedy, that combo is going to be very good.

[exodus]

Your problem is that you are looking at this from your point of view. I am looking at it from the Hawks point of view. You are basing your prediction on what you want to happen and ignoring what the team is doing.

If it was up to you (and me) Shelden would have never been drafted. So that should tell you that the teams thinking is different from yours. The fact that the Hawks were very reluctant to give Smoove minutes at the 4 last year should tell you something about their thinking.

If you want to make an avatar bet that is fine, but it is just silly because you are so obviously wrong.

Marvin didn't hardly play at the end of close games this past season while Smith was in the game hitting clutch shots with regularity. Smith was putting up 14/8 with 3.5 assists after the break and finished 4th in the league in blocks. No way does Marvin start over Smith based on summer league.

if the team viewed Smith as a starting 4 they simply would not have drafted Shelden.

[AHF]

I also would expect Josh Smith to be our starting PF at this point but the beginning of the season is a long way off so we will see.

* * * * *

If it is between Josh Smith and Marvin then obviously Josh Smith will start. However, their skills are probably complimentary enough that both of them could start and Shelden will play big minutes at PF and some minutes at C. Shelden should be on the floor the vast majority of the time that either Marvin or Josh Smith or off the floor, IMO. Childress is going to play all over the place this year as well. It will be interesting.

[exodus]

The competition for minutes is going to be a major issue. Last year the Hawks played frequently with a big backcourt of Chill/JJ. Chill was usually the first one off the bench for Ivey. Now that Speedy is here they probably won't play with a big backcourt as often.

And the 3 is pretty much spoken for by Smith and Marvin. i wonder where Chills minutes are going to come from. The only way he can average 30 minutes would be if Lue and Salim don't play hardly at all.

[swolehawk2]

What are you talking about?

First of all, I would have drafted Shelden after Aldridge was gone,...because in two to three years in a league that is getting smaller and more athletic he would start at the 5.

Smoove did not play at the 4 because Al was here. When Al was hurt Smoove/Marvin played together.

Marvin won't start over Smith... and shouldn't...because they will play together.

You act as if BK drafted Shelden and said, look at our new starting power forward...nothing is determined by draft position...Smoove and Marvin will be better options come October and that is what it boils down to.

I would love for Shelden to be ready to start, but I don't think he will.

[exodus]

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Smoove did not play at the 4 because Al was here

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The problem with that logic is that Al has stated publicly that he would prefer to play the 3. Al is obviously much better defensively at the 3 than the 4. He played the 3 most of the previous season.

Many of us (including me) were screaming all season for Smith to start at the 4 and Al at the 3. Considering Smoove is one of the best shotblockers in the league and Al was one of the worst it seem to be a logical move but it didn't happen.

[swolehawk2]

The statement that Al is a better defender at the 3 is just your opinion..I can't think of many 3s or 4s that Al can guard.

Whatever you want label them, go right ahead.

But they will be the starting forwards.

....so what is your logic?...if Shelden is going to start now? Then Marvin or Smoove will be a career back up?

Or do we trade Marvin or Smoove...so they can pull a Diaw.