Please some explain something to me!

[Peoriabird]

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Josh:

mpg 38.2/ppg 15.0 /Rebs 7.8/Apg 4.1/Bpg 3.1/Stl 1.0/TO 2.3

Fg% 42.6/3pt% 32,7/ ft% 71.1

Marvin

Mpg 28.0/ppg 11.1 /Rebs 5.4/Apg 0.8/Bpg 0.3/Stl 0.6/TO 1.3

Fg% 47.0/ 3pt% 0.67/ ft% 73.7

Now i'm not a Marvin hater, but people think Smoove is better be cause he played better.

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Where did those stats come from?

[Peoriabird]

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Well, if that is the only measure Smoove averaged more points, more rebounds, more assists.

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AI averaged more points than Labron becuase he shot more. Not because hewas a better shooter. As far as rebounds are concerned, Smoove played more minutes and that is why you need per 40 minute standards. We shall see this year who is the better talent but based on what I've seen from Marvin this year, he clearly is the more skilled player.

[Packfill]

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Well, if that is the only measure Smoove averaged more points, more rebounds, more assists.

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AI averaged more points than Labron becuase he shot more. Not because hewas a better shooter. As far as rebounds are concerned, Smoove played more minutes and that is why you need per 40 minute standards. We shall see this year who is the better talent but based on what I've seen from Marvin this year, he clearly is the more skilled player.

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I was going off of the per 48 minute numbers on ESPN. Check for yourself.

Again, no one is arguing about potential, just that based on actual play Smoove has outplayed Marvin to date. Why is this so hard to understand?

[pimp]

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Josh:

mpg 38.2/ppg 15.0 /Rebs 7.8/Apg 4.1/Bpg 3.1/Stl 1.0/TO 2.3

Fg% 42.6/3pt% 32,7/ ft% 71.1

Marvin

Mpg 28.0/ppg 11.1 /Rebs 5.4/Apg 0.8/Bpg 0.3/Stl 0.6/TO 1.3

Fg% 47.0/ 3pt% 0.67/ ft% 73.7

Now i'm not a Marvin hater, but people think Smoove is better be cause he played better.

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Where did those stats come from?

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Those are thier post allstar break numbers.

I got them at yahoo sports.Here are some links.

JOSH

MARVIN

[chillzatl]

What it boils down to is you have some people who are simply Josh Smith fans and they are always going to side with Josh. On the other hand you have Walter, who bases his theory that Josh has been and always will be 25% better than Marvin. Then you have the rest of us, who like them both and think they both have the ability to be very good if not great NBA players.

If you want to break it down, as you did, I would agree that from a raw tools standpoint, Marvin has more upside and potential than Josh does. As of last year, Josh was the more developed of the two. But he also had a year more experience in the NBA than Marvin. If you compare their rookie years seperately, Marvin looked a little more polished by seasons end than Josh did. I'll take it a step further and break some of those things down for you.

1 They are both excellent athletes that can jump out of the building and run the floor with the best of them.

2 Josh has an innate ability to time shots and block them, which Marvin hasn't shown.

3 Josh has a solid 3pt shot which Marvin hasn't demonstrated.

4 They are both solid rebounders

5 They are both good passers for their position

6 Josh has proven to be better in the open court and is a better finisher on the break.

7 Marvin has a better first step and handles and is better at getting to the basket in the half court.

8 Marvin has shown (in SL) to have some post moves, which Josh does not have.

9 Marvin is a better free throw shooter.

10 marvin has a better mid-range game.

11 Marvin (in SL) has shown the ability to get to the basket and draw fouls, Josh hasn't demonstrated such an ability.

12 They are both solid man defenders

All in all I would rate them pretty evenly. Though again, I think Marvin has better raw tools for his position where Josh is more of a tweener.

[gutz]

LOL..PB you wanted stats and there they are!! So quit whining about it. Smoove played unbelievable the last half of the year putting up Kirilenko type numbers every night just about. He improved greatly in just about every aspect of the game even developing a 3 point shot we never had seen before. I love Marvin as well and I do agree with you that he is and will be the more polished scorer of the two. they are both still learning right now. I think Smoove and Marvin could be the next bad ass tandem at the forward positions for the next decade and will be downright scary. We shouldn't argue over this anyways they are on the same team and we should root for both of them. I'm really excited to get this next year started. I think we are going to surprise a lot of people in the NBA. GO HAWKS!!!

[Final_quest]

You are a trip, man. No matter what evidence is presented you still maintain that absolutely and positively Marvin is better. That's why I said your mind is already made up.

I don't necessarily disagree because Marvin hopefully will be a better player, but we just haven't seen it in the NBA.

[swolehawk2]

Man, if cats paid attention they would have seen Marvin/Smoove ballin TOGETHER at the end of the season.

[AHF]

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Well, if that is the only measure Smoove averaged more points, more rebounds, more assists.

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AI averaged more points than Labron becuase he shot more. Not because hewas a better shooter. As far as rebounds are concerned, Smoove played more minutes and that is why you need per 40 minute standards. We shall see this year who is the better talent but based on what I've seen from Marvin this year, he clearly is the more skilled player.

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The numbers favor Smith - check out the efficiency numbers and PER numbers (probably two of the more meaningful statistics).

Marvin's PER last season was 12.24.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hol...er?statsId=3928

Josh Smith's PER his rookie season was 15.43, and it was slightly better last year.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hol...er?statsId=3834

Basketball Reference's efficiency rates are also weighted heavily towards Josh Smith.

Marvin - 9.46

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/t...TL&lg=n&yr=2005

Josh Smith's Rookie Season - 13.04 (and higher last year).

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/t...TL&lg=n&yr=2004

That is the statistical argument.

Josh Smith clearly has the advantage in athleticism and has done a much better than expected job developing his shooting range, passing and other skills. He does things that are special on the court and that no other Hawks could do. That projects into potential superstar status, in my mind.

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Incidently, the argument about Josh Smith being a veteran and Marvin Williams being a rookie was beneath you. They are the same age and Marvin is the one whose skills are more refined. The veteran argument is that the vet is more advanced in age (meaning less upside) and in skills (giving the younger player more room to catch up). That doesn't apply to a comparison of Marvin and Josh.

[Peoriabird]

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You are a trip, man. No matter what evidence is presented you still maintain that absolutely and positively Marvin is better. That's why I said your mind is already made up.

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Are you trying to say that I pulled a Diesel, Walter, or Hotlanta . Maybe so but after watching some of the Summer league games, I could see the type of skills all of the scouts were talking about. Maybe he did look a little lost last year but I think that you will see a different Marvin this year.

[AHF]

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Then you have the rest of us, who like them both and think they both have the ability to be very good if not great NBA players.

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If it isn't clear from my history of posts here, this is the group I fall in. I thought they blended very well together when Al was out last season. I also expect Marvin to step it up a level this year.

However, I do think Josh Smith has the most upside from what I have seen of everyone on the team - although JJ's continued success is a challenge to that belief.

[Plainview1981]

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Josh and Marvin are the same age. We can only hope that Marvin's actual production equals the production Smoove had the second half of last season.

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What production are you referring to? Give me stats!! And even if Smoove was more productive, It was Smoove's second year in the league and second year in Mike Woodson's system. On top of that Smoove was a starting player and Marvin came off the bench. By the way Marvin is younger than Smoove. In fact he was the second youngest players in the NBA last year.

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Your mind is already made up. Not trying to bash you. I do that plenty of times aswell.

[chillzatl]

I think he has a lot of upside. But he also has a lot of glaring deficiencies that I do not see in Marvin. Some of which are physical limitations that aren't easily overcome by practice (small hands, weak first step, bad handles, etc). That's not a knock on him or favoritism, it's just my honest opinion from watching them both play. Marvin doesn't really have any physical/game limitations other than a lack of experience and possibly that intangible "killer instinct" thing.

[Plainview1981]

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Then you have the rest of us, who like them both and think they both have the ability to be very good if not great NBA players.

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If it isn't clear from my history of posts here, this is the group I fall in. I thought they blended very well together when Al was out last season. I also expect Marvin to step it up a level this year.

However, I do think Josh Smith has the most upside from what I have seen of everyone on the team - although JJ's continued success is a challenge to that belief.

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I agree. I do think Smoove has more potential than Marvin. Marvin looks like he could be a 20/7/2 type of player... But Smoove could be a 16/8/3/3 player. I think Marvin would be a better go-to player, but Smoove would be a good supporter.

I guess it depends on which way you look at it.

[AHF]

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I think he has a lot of upside. But he also has a lot of glaring deficiencies that I do not see in Marvin. Some of which are physical limitations that aren't easily overcome by practice (small hands, weak first step, bad handles, etc). That's not a knock on him or favoritism, it's just my honest opinion from watching them both play. Marvin doesn't really have any physical/game limitations other than a lack of experience and possibly that intangible "killer instinct" thing.

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The biggest deficiencies I see in Josh Smith's game right now are "basketball IQ" (positioning on D and shot selection in particular) and his handles. I will have to think more about the first step but I don't see his hand size as an issue that will limit him long-term given that he hasn't shown any problems dunking, shooting, rebounding, or shotblocking based on his hand size - the only area it concerns me is the abovementioned ballhandling.

One thing I love is how he has worked to step forward on this team and shown great clutch play at the end of games. He has the killer instinct required of a star from what we have seen.

[chillzatl]

I lump handles and first step together actually. I think his lack of handles hurts his first step, which IMO isn't that quick to begin with, and makes it worse than it would be if he had decent handles. His IQ is naturally going to improve. We saw that last year, especially at the end. But again, I don't see any limitations in Marvin other than experience. Which is why I give him a slighty better upside.

[Johnnybravo4]

They have upside in different facets of the game. Marvin will never have the athleticism/playmaking ability that Smoove has and Smoove will never have the skill game that marvin has. It is like trying to compare Carmelo to Shawn Kemp.

[chillzatl]

I think you're off base about Marvin's athleticism. Marvin is every bit as athletic as Smooth. He's quicker off the dribble and can jump just as well. His athletic ability combined with his raw skill is why he was the consensus #2 pick.

[Johnnybravo4]

He has nowhere near the speed or jumping ability as Smoove. On plays where Marvin would lose the ball and get knocked to the ground, Smoove would dunk on those dudes.

[AHF]

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I think you're off base about Marvin's athleticism. Marvin is every bit as athletic as Smooth. He's quicker off the dribble and can jump just as well. His athletic ability combined with his raw skill is why he was the consensus #2 pick.

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I also will disagree on this. I think Smooth is clearly more athletic than Marvin, though both are standout athletes.