Has JJ moved to the realm of UNTOUCHABLE?

[gsuteke]

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This is what Diesel said in another thread;

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Seeing that everybody wants to talk about Deals that are not on the table as though they are... This is the deal that's not on the table that I would want the most.

When you guys want to talk about the pros and cons of what's really on the table, let me know!

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Then minutes later he throws out this crap;

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For instance, if Orlando was to offer us: Hill and Howard for Marvin and JJ would we say No?

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i like to refer to it as "spamming" the site

[Diesel]

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I'm not saying team plays no part and you need to win championships, but guys who are as good as KG is supposed to be just don't fail to make the playoffs many years, and get knocked out in the first round every year but one.

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This is the same old Dominique Wilkins/Dirk argument.

Just because his team failed to go farther doesn't mean that he's deficient. Until this year, Dirk and company weather it was Finley or Nash/Finley always got bounced in the 2nd round. I mean they'd win 60 games, get beat in the 2nd round. Win 60 games, get beat in the 2nd round. Finally, they get the right coach and they are in the finals.

What exactly does that say about Dirk??

Nothing. It says that previously the team wasn't good enough.

[Sothron]

The T-Wolves told Joe Smith to sign a one year deal with them and they would "reward" him with a bigger deal since they would have his old rules Bird rights at that point. He agreed. Somehow this was done on paper and it was a major no-no even though it had been done before in the past. Just no one except McHale was stupid enough to get caught. That situation helped lead to the lockout as well.

They traded Cassell to get Jaric. They don't have that much room under the cap thanks to KG's salary. It definitely has made trading to bring in people difficult or bringing in FA that are better than just MLE type deals (Jaric, Eddie Griffin, eventually Joe Smith).

I am not excusing Mchale, he has made some very bad mistakes (Troy Hudson, Jaric) in terms of managing what cap room he does have left around KG but that team has been just flat-out unlucky as well. Malik Seeley (I probably butchered his last name) dying when he finally was doing well for them, the whole Marbury/Googs fiasco that broke up a young promising team, Cassell being injured against the Lakers and another one of their guards being out, I think it was Hudson? in that series...its tough. They had to grossly overpay KG to keep him from hitting the FA market and its been downhill since then.

I do not blame KG for their problems outside of the fact his contract in very real terms hinders player movement around him. He does his part, the Wolves just can't keep a team around him.

[Lascar78]

There is a big difference between not being able to make it to the conference finals and not being able to win a single playoff series.

A player who is one of the few true superstars of the game should be able to make most teams one of the top 4 teams in his conference. To squeeze into the top 2 you can need more help.

I'm talking about winning a playoff series, not even conference finals or finals or titles. Just showing that you are worth the investment because you can deliver some wins in the postseason.

[Final_quest]

I know what you're saying, and you may be right. I'm just saying that I would take my chances with KG.

A lot of his best teams were playing in a time when the 4-6 best Western teams were easily better than the best Eastern team. On top of that you have all the problems Diesel brought up.

[chillzatl]

My problem with it all is the overhyping, and yes, I said overhyping, of Dwight Howard. Is he a good player? Yes. Is he great? no. Can he be great? Maybe.... and that maybe becomes the problem. He's a great rebounder. But that does not mean he is, will be or can become a great player. Everyone looks at a young guy who's dominant on the boards and throws down hard dunks and proclaims him a stud. But he's a long way off from having the tools to become a great player. Amare Stoudemire he is not and he's a good ways off from that level in a LOT of areas.

It's a stretch for me to trade a guy who already is a 20+/6/6 leadership guy and could be better than that, for a guy that right now is just a dominant rebounder and dunker. When you factor in giving up other stuff in addition, which is what it would take, I have even more of a problem with it.

We would be losing so much in the way of leadership I don't think I could do it.

[Diesel]

There have been large contracts before..

Shaq... and KOBE.

I think the thing is that if you have such a thing, then you have to be on your p's and q's as far as your ability to:

1. Evaluate talent.

2. Make deals that makes your team better.

I think McHale has failed in both.

However, this year they did get Randy Foye, Craig Smith, and Lukous Makcvfalidis... (probably some american guy who went overseas and changed his name using the magic of blind keystrokes!)

Bad Luck happens to everyone. However, you don't help Bad Luck by signing Mark Madsen to a long contract!

[Lascar78]

but take last year for instance. His help was Ricky Davis (/Wally Z), Jaric, Hassell, Griffin, Hudson, Madsen... certainly no world beaters, but he had help, no gaping holes in the lineup. Shouldn't a true superstar be able to squeeze out more than 33 wins out of that team?

[Final_quest]

The rules changed dramatically after KG inked his first contract. It's not his fault. He was worth what he was paid, but they changed the rules so teams could no longer sign players of his caliber to a salary they deserve.

I think the rule change has made it even tougher for teams who don't draft a superstar. We essentially have to pay JJ the same as Duncan gets paid because of the max contract. If we had a free market the Spurs would not be able to give Duncan the supporting cast he has, and the same is true with KG. If he was signed to the same deal as Duncan, Minnesota would have had much better supporting casts. Minnesota got penalized because of the rule change.

[chillzatl]

KG is not a "great one" he has great stats but he has never and will NEVER be a great player. Great players step up. They take it to another level when needed. KG has NEVER been able to take it to another level. He has never been able to DO MORE when his lesser teammates couldn't. Sure he's always had great stats. But great stats are great for the regular season. Great players are what it takes to go deep in the playoffs and that's why KG went what, six years, before he made it out of the first round. When you consider that it took bringing in two players who played at all-star levels themselves in order to make that happen, the case against KG's greatness gets colder and colder.

great stats, great production. But not a guy you mortgage your franchise for because once you do that, you will find that he needs more of a team around him than what he costs will allow you to build.

[Lascar78]

my thoughts exactly

[Sothron]

Again, I said I am not excusing McHale. I also think it is worth it to take into consideration Minnesota has also just been unlucky in terms of a promising young team breaking up, losing three years worth of first rounders, a promising young player dying and one aging "star" player going slap nuts silly in turning down a good deal (Spree).

Trading Cassell was a gigantic blunder. He had almost a MVP season last year giving the Clips leadership and steady PG play. Jaric is not a bad player but he's not worth what Cassell brings to the table. Wasting cap resources on guys like Jaric, Hudson, Madsen, etc. when you KNOW you only have so much cap room around KG's deal is just foolish.

Shaq was lucky to have Kobe develop as he did. Two superstars you can overpay to keep. All they did was surround them with affordable veterans who just wanted to win titles. KG does not have a Kobe next to him that came in on a rookie scale contract and could be resigned to exceeed the cap.

[Duff_Man]

People like to play fantasy sports instead of going on intangibles and desire. KG is a good player, but he is never going to LEAD a team to a ring. Put him on a team with Wade or Nash and he can certainly go farther than he has. The problem is that he has fallen to "great second option" status. He is beyond the point in his career where he will be able to learn leadership, unlike Dirk, who learned in a few years. A lot of screaming and chest thumping is not leadership. Neither is backing down from Anthony Peeler in a playoff series.

This is why I thought Cassell would be GREAT here. Yeah he is old, but he has the championships and is a leader and sort of a coach on the floor. He directs the younger guys and when he is on the bench, is not checking out women in the stands or BS-ing...he's jumping off the bench cheering on his mates. All the while, making Kaman and Brand better on the floor and teaching young Livingston. I thought he would come in and this team would immediately go to the playoffs because he could free up JJ, make Marvin and Smith better, and rub off on them professionally.

Basketball is far more than a USA Today box score...more of it is how the team meshes and behaves on the court. I see a lot of it developing on this team. There are players I would rather have, but I think we're playing well with the hand we're being dealt (on the floor, in the draft, and in FA/offseason).

[Final_quest]

I get what you're saying about Howard, but I think you have to take a chance on someone who has shown as much as he has at the position he plays. I just go with the history of dominant big men winning championships, and take a chance that Howard is one of those guys. It's not a sure thing, but I'm all for risking it.

[Diesel]

The ones who you call "Great Ones"...

You can rarely find a "Great One" who didn't have another allstar calibre player by his side OR who didn't have the right situation..

I guarantee you, if you had put some of those badly planned Minny teams in the East, they would have probably made it to the finals.

Seriously. NJ with Kmart/Kidd made it to the finals twice.. You can't tell me that that's not circumstance.

Meanwhile, KG has to fight past at least 3 60 game winners to get to the finals. The year that Minny finally made it to the WCF was the year that they ended the season as the 1st seed.. The year that they got Denver in the first round (43 wins) and Sacramento in the second round (55 wins)... That year, the pistons were only a 54 win team. That Minnesota team was 2-0 vs. the Pistons.

Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson going down was indeed bad luck but for Detroit, it was the best circumstance.

[Final_quest]

Most championship teams have 2-3 allstars, and at least one great player. If Cassell didn't go down that series and Minnesota won a championship, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I don't think KG is a case closed "great" player, but neither is JJ. I would prefer to hitch my wagon to KG than JJ, which is what the original question was.

[chillzatl]

and the other point of the conversation is that you aren't doing a JJ for KG 1-for-1 swap. We'd have to give up a lot more than just JJ. You'd rather put KG in the same situation here that he has in Minn., knowing that he can't lead such a team to the promised land? Why, just so we can say "we have KG"?

We aren't a perfect team adn I don't expect us to be one for a few years. But at least now we have lots of talent and we're in a good place financially. KG would easily take half our talent and ALL of our financial flexibility.

[Final_quest]

Well, initially the question was JJ/Solomon for KG. That deal is not possible, but we're just asking hypothetical questions here.

I think we have enough young talent to surround KG to make a decent run.

[exodus]

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My problem with it all is the overhyping, and yes, I said overhyping, of Dwight Howard. Is he a good player? Yes. Is he great? no. Can he be great? Maybe....

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Howard has absolutely no jump shot. The only big that I have seen who could score big without a jumper was Shaq but even he could shoots better than Howard.

Howard has a good lefty jump hook but for the most part his post skills are limited. And he is only an average shot blocker.

Word from a Magic fan I know is that Howard's effort tends to vary with the importance of the game. He gets up for big games but doesn't play hard all the time.

[chillzatl]

I hestitated to say it but I feel he's Smooth with a different body and skill set. Both of them are great athletes for their size. But they both are lacking some key skills that they will need in order to be "great". While Howards size and body lend to him having a greater impact initially. I think his lack of shooting ability may set him behind smooth in the long run.