Has JJ moved to the realm of UNTOUCHABLE?

[exodus]

So in other words the coach told you he was a great athlete and a great rebounder. I can always count on you for the inside scoop.

Who do you think knows Hawks players better, the people here or fans from other teams?

I have seen Howard play plenty of times. However when I want opinions of players from other teams i generally as their fans what's up.

The fans of the team know their players better than people who aren't fans of that team.

And you have said absolutly nothing that has contradicted what I have said about Howard. And you have been silenced by the fact that the pedestrian Mihm blocked the same number of shots as Howard in 10 fewer minutes per game.

Obviously it is much easier for you to argue without using any actual facts. I wonder why.

[exodus]

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It is too anecdotal for my tastes

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You want facts? Here are a few.

Shotblocking

Darko 2.0 in 21 minutes/game

Howard 1.4 in 37 minutes/game

Outside shooting

Darko made 39% of jumpers

Howard made 26% of jumpers

Post play

Darko shot 60% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Howard shot 45% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Team defense

Darko on court opponents score 8 fewer ppg

Howard on court opponents score 1 more ppg

Is this still too anecdotal?

[AHF]

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It is too anecdotal for my tastes

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You want facts? Here are a few.

Shotblocking

Darko 2.0 in 21 minutes/game

Howard 1.4 in 37 minutes/game

Outside shooting

Darko made 39% of jumpers

Howard made 26% of jumpers

Post play

Darko shot 60% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Howard shot 45% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Team defense

Darko on court opponents score 8 fewer ppg

Howard on court opponents score 1 more ppg

Is this still too anecdotal?

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If you are arguing that Darko is better than Howard then admit it and we can get on with a debate. You look like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on the stats. Either Darko is better, the stats back them up and since Darko isn't going to be a superstar we should believe Howard won't or you aren't relying on stats but on the Orlando fan's opinion. Darko has a ton more training than Howard and is better at some aspects of the game. However, my understanding was that you were stating:

(1) You admitted Howard was better.

and

(2) That an Orlando fan told you that Howard's effort was inconsistent and his game was unrefined and that caused you to think people were overrating his prospects as a player.

I responded by agreeing Howard was better and by stating that an "Orlando fan told me" argument is too anecdotal for my tastes. Just look at the range of opinion on Hawks players on this site. Moreover, I guarantee that Orlando fans on the whole are very high on Howard (meaning that you are taking a minority opinion of another team's fans).

If the issue here is that you want to do a statistical comparison of Howard and Milicic I would suggest starting with PER. Howard's PER last year was 19.37. Darko's was 15.27 - a big jump from his previous high of 6.03.

For me, Howard looks like a beast who is going to be a star. The opinion of a random Orlando fan who is high on Darko (who I also think showed some nice potential) isn't going to cause me to toss that away anymore than an Orlando fan telling me he is better than Lebron would make me think that was the case.

[DrReality]

I think he is untouchable until Belkin takes over!!!!!!!!!

[BBallPrincess]

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So in other words the coach told you he was a great athlete and a great rebounder. I can always count on you for the inside scoop.

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Your welcome though you sound kinda jelous. LOL!

[BBallPrincess]

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It is too anecdotal for my tastes

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You want facts? Here are a few.

Shotblocking

Darko 2.0 in 21 minutes/game

Howard 1.4 in 37 minutes/game

Outside shooting

Darko made 39% of jumpers

Howard made 26% of jumpers

Post play

Darko shot 60% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Howard shot 45% on attempts in close that weren't dunks

Team defense

Darko on court opponents score 8 fewer ppg

Howard on court opponents score 1 more ppg

Is this still too anecdotal?

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Look you statistical guru, you continue to confuse me, now you want to compare him to Darko make up your mind.... Now i'm silenced...I'm going home to go study stats.....

[exodus]

While you're studying you can ponder this question;

What is Howard good at besides rebounding and dunking?

[exodus]

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If you are arguing that Darko is better than Howard then admit it and we can get on with a debate. You look like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth on the stats. Either Darko is better, the stats back them up and since Darko isn't going to be a superstar we should believe Howard won't or you aren't relying on stats but on the Orlando fan's opinion.

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I have said this before but you obviously missed it the other times I posted it.

Howard is being overrated here, just like Chillz said. Take out his rebounding and dunking and what does he do well?

The only thing I can think of is drawing fouls.

[thesheedera]

Ex, I think you're devaluing his scoring ability by saying all he's able to do is dunk. He's able to dunk in the first place because he's big and athletic enough, and "good" enough to get within arm's length of the basket. Its not like all he's shown is that he can dunk in the open floor, he's getting solid offensive production against real live defenses. Does it matter how he scores as long as the production is there? Shaq wasn't exactly draining fadeaway jumpers his whole career. He's a big man with a lot of skills and a huge frame, there are certainly a lot of things he needs to improve to be the best big man in the league, but he's off to a hell of a start.

You say "take out his dunking and rebounding", when you consider how many points he gets off his dunking and how dominant of a rebounder he's been, then you're taking away an awful lot.

Take away Nash's assists and ball handling, and what do you have? A one dimensional shooter. That ain't fair.

[exodus]

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You say "take out his dunking and rebounding", when you consider how many points he gets off his dunking and how dominant of a rebounder he's been, then you're taking away an awful lot.

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He shoots 45% on close in attempts that aren't dunks or tips. He shoots 26% on jumpers.he isn't a 300+ pound guy who can overpower people like Shaq. At some point he will have to actually develop some skills if he wants to be a great player.

Right now he has size and athleticism but in terms of skills he is very limited. He could certainly be great one day but he isn't now.

[exodus]

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You say "take out his dunking and rebounding", when you consider how many points he gets off his dunking and how dominant of a rebounder he's been, then you're taking away an awful lot.

Take away Nash's assists and ball handling, and what do you have? A one dimensional shooter. That ain't fair.

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Nash's assists and ball handling are the result of actually having skills.

Right now Howard has great size and athleticism but in terms of skills he is lacking. Certainly he can develop skills but I can point to a lot of players who didn't develop the skills that people projected them to when they were young.

On the other end you have Amare. He came into the league lacking skills but had great athleticism. Last year, his 3rd season, he shot 42% on his jumpers and shot 57% on his close in attempts that weren't dunks. That compares to shooting 30%/44.6% his rookie year.

In other words Amare developed his skills. Could Howard follow the same path? Maybe but so far I haven't seen a lot of progress other than building himself up physically.

[thesheedera]

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He shoots 45% on close in attempts that aren't dunks or tips.

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and yet he's still getting enough dunks to be a very productive scorer

he isn't a great player yet, but he's already an undeniable impact player in the NBA completely irregardless of his age and experience

[thesheedera]

I see your point, but would argue that in Dwight's short tenure he has shown improvement scoring and rebounding, even assists and a little in shooting percentage. I think he will develop his other skills, he's got the work ethic and the lifestyle to do so.

I guess you're focusing on skills, and I'm looking more at overall impact, and how a player helps his team. I'd take a raw player that puts up 20 and 15 any day over a highly skilled guy giving me 15 and 10, you know?

[exodus]

The way people talk about him here you would think he is Tim Duncan or David Robinson. i don't think he will even approach those two.

What I want to see from him is what I have seen from Smith which is improvement in his skills. It is quite impressive how far Smith has come skillwise in 2 years.

[thesheedera]

I'll agree with that. Smith has shown more all around improvement than any player he was drafted with...but I'd still go with Howard 100 times out of 100 if I were given the choice. Howard's size and athleticism probably does lead to him being overrated bya lot of fans, but it also makes him completely indespensible to his franchise.

I'd love to see him improve his footwork and his D, but I personally could care less if he ever takes a shot outside of 10 feet, I'd rather see him dominate the inside.

To take this in a little different direction...

If you could get him, what would you give up from the Hawks team for Dwight?

Darko?

Amare?

Garnett (contract aside)?

[exodus]

We aren't getting any of those guys. The only one who would be remotely possible is Darko but since Orlando will have a ton of caproom after Hill retires I don't think we have a chance at him at all.

Diesel likes to play fantasy GM but it isn't my thing.

[thesheedera]

I'm not looking for trade scenarios really, just trying to gauge what you think he's worth, considering what he's done and what he might do.

I'm not ready to put him on a pedastal with Mister Robinson, but I think he's got the chance to get there.

[Guest Walter]

What was actually given up for him?

I remember prior to his being traded I wanted Darko/filler for Harrington. Shame. I really think that front court is going to be awesome.

W

[drzachary]

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What was actually given up for him?

I remember prior to his being traded I wanted Darko/filler for Harrington. Shame. I really think that front court is going to be awesome.

W

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If you'll recall, in the Hawksquawk mock draft, I (as the Hawks) traded Marvin for Darko/Diener/Orlando's #8 pick. I think that is a fantastic deal for us. #2-pick quality potential at a position we need it for #2-pick quality potential at a position we don't need it as much! Plus the pick, etc.

[exodus]

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What was actually given up for him?

I remember prior to his being traded I wanted Darko/filler for Harrington. Shame. I really think that front court is going to be awesome.

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Orlando gave up next years 1st round pick and Cato. Great deal for them.

We would have probably had to give up this years draft pick and I don't even know if we technically could have traded it since the Suns have our pick next year.

They didn't want Harrington because they were planning on resigning Wallace.

The majority here were against trading for him, thinking he was a bust.Woody argued against getting him which pretty much took us out of the running.