List all of the Trade Offers the Hawks recieve

[Diesel]

As if what you're saying is based in facts..

The facts are...

N.O. needed a Big.

The facts are....

N.O. had lots of money to spend.

The facts are...

You can't sit here and continue to say that Nene was the "best defensive C on the market"..

Then at the same time, have the believe that nobody would have gone after him with a big contract.

You sir are a walking contradictions.

Those Are the facts...

What do you have??

More strawmen??

More useless hyperboyle??

More belief in INTERNET RUMORS than Facts??

Try using your brain every once and a while...

Mark!

[exodus]

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You can't sit here and continue to say that Nene was the "best defensive C on the market"..

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Where did you get that quote from? Your @ss maybe?

Here is a fact. NOK was interested in Chandler. How do I know this? He is currently on their team.

You ASSUME they were interested in Nene but have no quotes from the team to prove it.

[Diesel]

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Here is a fact. NOK was interested in Chandler. How do I know this? He is currently on their team.

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Well, if it wasn't for the fact that Denver signed Nene before N.O. could make an offer...

This is your problem Ex.

Your brain seems to be on vacation.

Do you think Chandler was N.O.'s first option?

Do you think Denver's GM was lying about all the interest that Nene' was recieving throughout the league.

The proof of Nene's value is seen in the fact that Denver paid him so much before any other team could.

Why do you think that's the case??

I mean, you can argue about Sentence structure, spelling, and whatever tangent you want to...

But here's the question: Do you think that no team would have made a large offer to Nene?

That's a yes or no question.

[exodus]

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But here's the question: Do you think that no team would have made a large offer to Nene?

That's a yes or no question.

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How large?

If you are asking if I think someone would offer him $12 million/yr the answer is no.

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Do you think Chandler was N.O.'s first option?

Do you think Denver's GM was lying about all the interest that Nene' was recieving throughout the league.

The proof of Nene's value is seen in the fact that Denver paid him so much before any other team could.

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I have no idea if Chandler was NOK's first option. Neither do you. I have said all along that I didn't know if NOK was interested in Nene or not.

Denvers GM saw Chicago and Atlanta with a ton of cap space and interest in Nene. He probably didn't know that Chicago would sign Ben Wallace, making Chandler available. He also probably didn't know NOK was interested in Chandler.

Do you think Denver's GM knew all that when he signed Nene?

Your so called "proof" could be the same argument used to justify GS overpaying to keep their players. After all the signed Dunleavy to a big deal before he could become a FA. Doesn't that "prove" his worth?

[mrhonline]

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But here's the question: Do you think that no team would have made a large offer to Nene?

That's a yes or no question.

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Why do we care what exodus thinks? He's just some random poster on the Internet just like us.

The quote I provided for you guys, however, is clearly from someone within the Nuggets' organization. I'm much more likely to take him at his word than some random Internet poster.

Exodus can claim that Nene wouldn't have received any crazy offers, but he has yet to explain why Denver offered a $60M+ contract before anyone could even extend an offer.

The answer is obvious to everyone but exodus that the Nuggets knew that if he hit the open market he would have cost them a ton more. (And, yes, this includes teams over the cap, and if the difference between their offers and Denver's was significant...).

This same situation will happen to Chris Kaman if the Clippers don't lock him up before free agency begins in 2007. He will be offered a max or near-max offer by someone.

You don't LOWBALL young, promising bigs.

[exodus]

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The answer is obvious to everyone but exodus that the Nuggets knew that if he hit the open market he would have cost them a ton more. (And, yes, this includes teams over the cap, and if the difference between their offers and Denver's was significant...).

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So Denver's GM knew Chicago would get Wallace?

And your article quoted NO TEAM OVER THE CAP THAT WOULD PAY 12 MILLION/YR. Your article said they would pay $9-10 million/yr.

Somehow you think $9-10 million/yr > $12 million/yr.

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You mean your argument that Nene would have signed a reasonable deal with the Hawks when there were NINE teams interested in a S&T that would have paid him more than Denver?

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You may want to invest in a new calculator. The one you have doesn't work.

[mrhonline]

Exodus, I never personally gave any figures other than that $60M is Nene's market value.

For Denver, that amounts to $10M/year (six years, $60M).

For another team (either a team under the cap who would take advantage of Denver not signing Nene quickly enough, or Denver agreeing to a S&T rather than give him a near max contract), that's somewhere around $12M/year (five years, $60M).

The fact is, Denver never expected Chicago to land Ben Wallace - that's why they re-signed Nene so quickly. Had Detroit matched the contract (which is what almost EVERYONE expected, and that likely included the Hawks), then Chicago was expected to go after Nene. The fact is, New Orleans could have just as easily gone after Nene rather than Chandler.

Regardless, Denver had to make a decision on how much to pay Nene BEFORE free agency began. They acted quickly and saved themselves a little dough (albeit very little). Yet no matter how you look at it, Nene would have cost Atlanta at least $60M (the equivalent of what Denver offered).

The Hawks chose to spend roughly half that ($30M) on a starting PG and a backup big man. Time will tell whether they should have pursued Nene more aggressively, but I expect that they chose the prudent route primarily because of the court decisions.

All this aside, I still assert that Nene didn't come cheap, even to Denver at ~$60M.

[exodus]

HoopsHype has the deal at 5 yrs.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/denver.htm

They certainly could be wrong.

My perceived market value for Nene is 9-10 million. I have seen nothing to suggest the Hawks would have to pay more than that to keep him.

[Final_quest]

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Your logic makes absolutely no sense.

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No, I think his logic makes sense. If Nene was in high demand, chances are he would get a big contract one way or another. Maybe not as high as Denver paid, but a big contract. I don't pretend to understand how players have the power to negotiate a market value higher than the MLE when no team can sign them for more that, but that seems to be the trend. I'm just going by what happens every offseason.

[Diesel]

They are wrong and you know that they are wrong.

You've seen every report of the signing say 6 year 60 million dollars.

And you also know how unreliable Hoopshype is in terms of Salary.

-Mark..

[exodus]

If I knew they were wrong I wouldn't have been posting $12 million/yr for two days. Unlike you i dont make a habit of making a fool of myself just for fun.

And if everyone else knew it was a 10 million/yr deal why did it take this long for someone to mention it?

[Final_quest]

I thought I read that it could be as low as $50 million if incentives are not met.

[exodus]

That certainly changes my perception of the Denver deal.

However it doesn't change my perception of Atlanta's situation if they had Nene. The fact that there wouldn't be many, if any, bidders for Nene means that the Hawks would most likely have him by the short hairs.

Teams over the cap could only offer the MLE.

So it boils down to what the Hawks could resign him for. I think they could get him for around $9 million/yr and I would be willing to pay that, as i said yesterday.

[gsuteke]

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But here's the question: Do you think that no team would have made a large offer to Nene?

That's a yes or no question.

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Why do we care what exodus thinks? He's just some random poster on the Internet just like us.

The quote I provided for you guys, however, is clearly from someone within the Nuggets' organization. I'm much more likely to take him at his word than some random Internet poster.

Exodus can claim that Nene wouldn't have received any crazy offers, but he has yet to explain why Denver offered a $60M+ contract before anyone could even extend an offer.

The answer is obvious to everyone but exodus that the Nuggets knew that if he hit the open market he would have cost them a ton more. (And, yes, this includes teams over the cap, and if the difference between their offers and Denver's was significant...).

This same situation will happen to Chris Kaman if the Clippers don't lock him up before free agency begins in 2007. He will be offered a max or near-max offer by someone.

You don't LOWBALL young, promising bigs.

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both Diesel and Exodus care because they both think they are right.

after a while when you go back and forth like this it ultimately becomes about who is right and who is wrong......

and there's nothing wrong with that in the spirit of good debate.

[exodus]

The funny part is that i was making an (inadvertent) strawman argument. At least I picked the right thread for it.

[Diesel]

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I think they could get him for around $9 million/yr and I would be willing to pay that, as i said yesterday.

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So, Nene will turn down a 10 million per year deal with a playoff team in order to take a 9 million per year deal with a lottery team??

And you say my math is bad??

Obviously, your logic is horrible.

[exodus]

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So, Nene will turn down a 10 million per year deal with a playoff team in order to take a 9 million per year deal with a lottery team??

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And what playoff team is that?

If the Hawks had Nene and had his restricted rights there are no playoff teams under the cap other than Chicago, who signed Wallace.

Looks like you got confused again. To recap;

The Hawks were offered Nene/Lenard at the deadline for Al. BK refused.

I believed then, as i still do, that it would have been better to take Nene at that time. That is what he have been arguing this whole thread.

Do you think Indy's first rounder has more value than Nene?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It might, depending on what player is out there.

Just like the "what if" speculations about who would offer Nene what, if the Hawks had him . . the same goes for Indy's pick next year.

It's all speculation because we don't fully know what Nene will be like after his injury. And we don't know what player will be available with Indy's pick in the mid-round of 2007 . . or in 2008.

Personally, I think we may not have a draft pick at all next year, because I have no confidence in that Indy team making the playoffs. When it's all said and done, they may be just as good as we are, or a notch below.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for the Hornets probably making a run at Nene, I think that's a pretty fair assessment to make. All you have to do is look at who they drafted, to figure out what they were trying to do. They sign both Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons to bolster their frontline. If GMs around this league place value in Nene like Denver did, the Hornets would've definitely made a big time offer to get him. Which is probably why Denver decided to lock Nene up, before he was officially on the RFA market.

But if he were with us, and the price to re-sign him is 9 - 10 million, that's a hell of a price to pay for just a defensive minded center that will give you limited offense.

We've seen too many kids in this league that are one-dimensional big men, get ridiculous contracts. Then the team whines and complains about how much money they make, how little production they're actually getting, and how much their contract is limiting them from improving the team.

Here are some big men who are currently "stealing money" in this league:

- Theo Ratliff ( 11 mill + )

- Erick Dampier ( 8.6 mill )

- Adonyl Foyle ( 8 mill + with another 18 million owed to him )

- Kwame Brown ( 8 mill + )

- Tyson Chandler ( 9 mill + )

- Eddy Curry ( 8 mill + . . although Eddy can at least be a viable offensive option. Eddy at least has a chance to be worth his price tag )

- Samuel Dalembert ( 8 mill + . . good Lord, and we were supposedly hot and heavy after this kid last summer. Good thing he stayed in Philly )

- Raef LaFrentz ( almost 11 mill . . lol, that's incredible )

- Rasho Nesterovic ( 7 million + . . for a guy that has only had one year as good as ZaZa's last year )

And the one thing you should notice about this list, is that every one of these teams, with the exception of Philly and the Knicks, have ALL traded these guys after a few years of signing the big money contract. And of these guys, only Curry looks to be the guy who could be anywhere near worth the money.

Damn . . the more I think about it, the more I'm glad that BK didn't pull the trigger on a Nene deal. If it was going to cost us over 7 million to re-sign the guy, then the risk is probably not worth it. Let Denver figure out that their 10 million a year center, is probably worth only 6 million.

[exodus]

Do you want the Hawks to be a title contenders or not?

In order for the Hawks to be title contenders they will have to find a center who can play D at some point. There is no way around it, and those guys don't come cheap.

Just look at the teams that have won titles. How many of them would have won titles with Zaza at center?

The Hawks have plenty of scoring (assuming continued progression of the young guys) so they don't really need a center who can score.

Lets assume the Hawks traded for Nene and signed him to Denvers contract. They would still be about $10 million under the cap.