Too many whiners about what it takes to get a C

[Guest Walter]

I tried to post this in the thread it was inspired by but something was up...maybe it was there...

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Bottom line with you guys is that it is always the same story. You say you don't want Nene, don't want Prz. But when it comes down to who you DO want, and how we could get them, it's....

*crickets*

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A - [censored] - men!

This is the final and hardest piece of the puzzle for this team. We need a center with the potential to dominate in the post on both ends, with defense more important IMO. This very piece is the catalyst to our entire team. Every player will play better with this type force inside. Our 2-Sf lineup actually becomes viable if not prefered should we get this very player. Otherwise our team of forwards spends its time trying its d@mndest to hold down the post rather than playing their game and no matter what we still get beat in the paint. This piece isn't easy to get either!

A difficult to acquire player who would be our highly valuable team catalyst does not come cheap. Yet, when I highlight a player with that potential in Bynum many here cry foul at the mere perceived talent cost of Childress/Harrington. Whaaaa! WTF!?!

Many of the same cry foul with the concept of actually paying for the player the team needs most. We NEED a player that can 1st lock down the post and 2nd resemble a good or better post scoring option. I'm not sure that guy is NeNe, but regardless he MIGHT be that player, he's far more that player than anyone we have, and NeNe gets us no less in trade as a desirable RFA than Harrington did. Pryzbilla would have filled the most important requirement of locking down the post defensively. IMO, Bynum held the most POTENTIAL of all to do both in the long run, but too many people believe uninspired, talent equitable moves for teams in our position win titles.

Sometimes you have to think outside the confines of "that's alot of money to pay" or "that's alot of talent to give" to get what you NEED. We are not a team that can afford to wait out all 29 other teams until they decide to help us out with our need. We may have to make it all but impossible for them to refuse us (now). That's why I insisted we send Chill and Al to the Lakers, a win now team, perfect storm situation in which to pry Bynum away from them.

There may be other situations through which to get our badly needed true, preferably potentially dominant center, but few here seem ready to witness much less realize them, afraid we might actually lose out on a trade. Guess what? We just lost out on a trade AND did absolutely NOTHING to make this team a winner much less a contender. I'd rather "lose" on a trade in which we actually get "our man" than lose AND settle for something that we don't need, doesn't help us contend, etc.

We can continue to "lose out" on trades and punt rebuilding or we can make the hard choices, potentially inspired, bold moves it will take. Unfortunately, the options next year for said player involve RFAs and we have no Al to work with in trade. Indy picks don't return much. We may have passed up our best opportunities to get the player we need. It's just sad and lame that we can't see much less realize the type move we most need to make because we are so busy getting players we don't really need or fumbling, bumbling, stumbling in deals for no players.

It's not just crickets I hear but crying over what it would have actually taken to get a true, potentially 2-way dominate center. That crying will only get worse and the silence more deafening now that our most flexible offseason with the most capitol is over.

W

[Lascar78]

LMAO at a "too many whiners" thread coming from you, consisting entirely of you whining.

Classic.

[Guest Walter]

Again, more "crickets" from the gallery.

Lascar, exactly what must we do, how must we do it, and by when must we do it to make this team a contender or even a potential one?

W

[Popeye]

whiner = Walter

I can't understand you man.

You come here everyday make a post and always whining about something, and than you make another one saying:

Why are we whiners??

haha, that's dumb.

[Guest Walter]

Can YOU answer the question or are you going to complain about the high cost of a true, particluarly a dominant 2-way, center?

Gas is expensive and with a 2, SF starting lineup (we hope, right?) we can't get by with a "hybrid" vehicle at center. We need a Hemi and we gotta gas up. Whom do we get? How? When? Soon our rebuilding will be running on fumes.

Quit your bitching about the cost of a center and tell me who, how, when?

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ this thread, from KING WHINER.

Walter, your problem is that you're trying to build Rome in a day.

You want a plan?

How about we just wait for Chris Kaman NEXT SUMMER, offer him that ridiculous 6 year - 60 million deal that Nene and Tyson Chandler got, and go from there.

If we want him bad enough, just offer him the MAX.

At least he's the type of center that has the potential to be a 18 ppg - 20 ppg . . 10 to 12 rebounds . . and give you decent defense in the middle.

BUT I'LL SAY IT AGAIN . .

Why would the Clippers just let a player like that go?

Nene is NOT a dominant center, and probably won't develop into one. Could he be a nice center? Yes.

Bynum is NOT a dominant center, and probably won't develop into one. Could he be an adequate center? Yes.

Przybilla is NOT a dominant center, and definitely won't develop into one. Prz is probably about as good as he's going to get right now.

**************

Channing Frye MAY be a dominant center/power forward . . but why would the Knicks give something like that up?

Chris Bosh IS a dominant big man . . and Toronto locked him up with the quickness.

Amare Stoudamire IS a dominant big man . . and you see how Phoenix didn't even let the summer go by last year, before giving him his extension.

****************

I say that about those guys because out of all of the "dominant" centers that have come into the league in the past 15 years, ONLY Jermaine O'Neal developed into one, after being a fringe or marginal player.

If your center/big man isn't showing big time promise right out the gate, he'll probably never develop into a big time talent. He may only be a marginal player. And if that's the case, you DON'T overpay for him. You let him go, and pick up another MARGINAL player.

You don't just sell off decent talent at other positions, to bring in mediocre guys at center, just for the sake of having a center.

How many examples do you need on how teams completely overpay for a marginal center, then end up letting him go or flat out trading him in about 2 years?

I listed 9 guys in the other thread. I didn't list guys like:

- Kandiman

- Tony Battie

- Kelvin Cato

- Shawn Bradley

- Greg Oestertag

- Marc Jackson

LOL @ those guys.

There is no "magic bullet" or solution to this.

Look at the 2006 draft, and look at all of the GMs who drafted centers or power forwards.

You know what that tells me?

That tells me that these GMs are REFUSING to overpay for guys that have so-called upside, but haven't done ANYTHING significant in the league yet.

Houston thought Stromile Swift was the solution at PF alongside Yao.

LOL . . they end up trading him after one year.

The cycle continues.

************

Walter, you're just going to have to be patient and hope we find a diamond in the rough at center, or we draft some kid that dipped under the radar.

Either way, you're probably not going to find that "dominant 2-way guy" that you're looking for.

At best, he'll be a marginal 2-way guy that we're not paying a lot of money for.

But the one thing you DON'T do, is overpay for something, or give up a good player on this team, just to get one of these marginal centers.

These centers are like baseball middle relief pitchers. They're relief pitchers, because they're not good enough to be starters. But you do need them and they do serve a purpose.

But you DON'T pay them like a starting pitcher or a closer.

[exodus]

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How about we just wait for Chris Kaman NEXT SUMMER, offer him that ridiculous 6 year - 60 million deal that Nene and Tyson Chandler got, and go from there.

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First of all you are assuming Kaman won't be resigned before he is a free agent. Secondly he is a RFA, which means the Clippers will have the upper hand.

The advantage the Hawks have is that they don't need a center who can score. They just need one who can play D.

There are only two teams that made the playoffs last year that had starting centers (not on rookie contracts) making less than the MLE.

Dallas has Diop (although I can't remember if he was starting in the playoffs). However they also have Dampier who will make $8.6 million next year.

Indy has Foster, who plays next to 7 ft JO ($18 million).

The idea that the Hawks can win big with a Zaza/Lo combo at center is wrong. And there aren't going to be many oppotunities going forward to get an upgrade at center.

[exodus]

Foster apparently makes just over $5 million so i guess he would be considered a MLE player.

[Diesel]

Let me just say this...

Last year, Phoenix was one of the most dominate teams in the LEAGUE without a Center.

Let me say that again... WiTHOUT A 2 way DOMINANT CENTER?

Damn, how could this be... How could they be one of the most dominant teams in the game WITHOUT A 2 way dominant Center?

In Walter's mind, that's what you need to win.

Well, the truth is that if any team can get a Center like he's talking about they could be very competitive. So Walter does have a point... BUT Walter fails to realize the reality. Those players are scarce.

In Walter's Mind...

Scarce means... Oh My God.. we need to get one at all cost. However, the truth is that Scarce means that there aren't many teams with the ability to dominate the post with a dominate 2 way Center.

In fact, until a change comes, a 2 way dominate Center not named Shaq won't amount to championships because the speed of the game is changing.

The next cycle in basketball is running. IN a running game, the Center means a lot less. Why do you think Wilt Chamberlain only have 2 championships to show for his 13 year career?

What we must do is find a way to master "team ball". That means team offense and team defense. So that weather we have this unicorn of positions filled or not, we can still be very competitive.

Now, let's refute some points

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A difficult to acquire player who would be our highly valuable team catalyst does not come cheap. Yet, when I highlight a player with that potential in Bynum many here cry foul at the mere perceived talent cost of Childress/Harrington. Whaaaa! WTF!?!

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You argument would be somewhat compelling IF the Lakers were willing to trade Bynum and IF Bynum were that good.

Bynum is a project big man who's team will not trade him. SO in essence, that's a closed deal.

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We just lost out on a trade AND did absolutely NOTHING to make this team a winner much less a contender.

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I agree 100%... maybe even higher.. 1000%. However, I can't just disregaurd the circumstances. I think our ownership issues is far worse than the current owners are willing to admit publicly. I believe that BK made the deal that he could make. Everything else that we have heard is just the smoke and mirrors.

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It's just sad and lame that we can't see much less realize the type move we most need to make because we are so busy getting players we don't really need or fumbling, bumbling, stumbling in deals for no players.

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I don't think you take into consideration our needs and our abilities. I think at some point, there will be moves made to get star quality players. However, before we get to that point, we have to explore the true value of our assets. I think this is the year that we will make some tough decisions.

That means you may seen the core become: Speedy, JJ, MW, SW..

I think we need to find out who's capable of playing and becoming a star and who is just an asset.

Back to your crying about a Center.

There are several Centers that will be in the upcoming draft. I personally would like to see us deal with Seattle for one of their Centers. Maybe Salim for Petro..

However, we have to wait and watch... No need in crying now...

[Lascar78]

I don't think I've ever agreed with a post of yours as much as I do with this one. Pretty much what I would have said, except that I wasn't going to waste my time on someone who won't listen anyhow. Well put though!

[DrReality]

Curious is anyone has heard the scoop on Lo and his signing. I am hoping that no news is good news.

[Popeye]

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I don't think I've ever agreed with a post of yours as much as I do with this one. Pretty much what I would have said, except that I wasn't going to waste my time on someone who won't listen anyhow. Well put though!

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you right that was a great post.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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How about we just wait for Chris Kaman NEXT SUMMER, offer him that ridiculous 6 year - 60 million deal that Nene and Tyson Chandler got, and go from there.

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First of all you are assuming Kaman won't be resigned before he is a free agent. Secondly he is a RFA, which means the Clippers will have the upper hand.

The advantage the Hawks have is that they don't need a center who can score. They just need one who can play D.

There are only two teams that made the playoffs last year that had starting centers (not on rookie contracts) making less than the MLE.

Dallas has Diop (although I can't remember if he was starting in the playoffs). However they also have Dampier who will make $8.6 million next year.

Indy has Foster, who plays next to 7 ft JO ($18 million).

The idea that the Hawks can win big with a Zaza/Lo combo at center is wrong. And there aren't going to be many oppotunities going forward to get an upgrade at center.

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You're right Ex. Kaman probably will be signed before he becomes an RFA if he gets a MAX deal. If the Clips try to get him at a cheaper price, Kaman's agent may believe he can get a max deal from somebody else. But I'll agree with you and say the Clips will probably have Kaman locked up.

And you're wrong about us not needing a center who can score. We don't have any reliable scorers on this team, outside of JJ, so we need just about everybody on the team contributing on the offensive end, until someone emerges as a bonafide 2nd and 3rd option on this team.

We do need ZaZa's offense. Now, if we can find a backup to ZaZa that is the opposite of him, we could have that offensive and defensive player in the middle. It just won't be in the same body. But you don't pay 8 - 9 million to get that type of player or give up key starters or role players to get him.

I would love to have a Marcus Camby type here in the middle. But 75% of the teams in the league don't have that type of player in the middle. They either have a scrub, a decent offensive player, or a decent defensive player.

Re-read Diesel's last post. He breaks it down perfectly.

The whole purpose of Dallas bringing in Diop, was because Dampier was unreliable on the offensive and defensive ends by himself. Both of those guys are interchangable. If given the choice, Dallas would probably keep Diop, but deal Dampier with the quickness.

And Ex, you need to take more baby steps in this rebuilding process. We as fans, and I'm sure we as an organization, want to win a championship. But this team is nowhere near being a championship quality team or a team that can "win big". Even if we had Ben Wallace, we wouldn't be anywhere near being a team that could do that yet.

So like Walter, you're just going to have to be patient and hope this organization doesn't do anything rash.

The Knicks are a perfect example of an organization trying to build Rome in a day, with marginal talent or good talent that doesn't fit the team. We don't want to be the Knicks. We want to be the Bulls.

And the Bulls showed tremendous patience with their kids and let them grow into their roles. Then, when they had a legit chance to upgrade the team and get picks or good talent back in return, they traded some of their assets.

Like Diesel said, let this season play out, and see who we should keep here, and who we should deal.

But for now, hope and pray that a ZaZa/Lo Wright/Shelden combo in the middle is adequate enough to get us close to .500

Matter of fact, you have no choice but to hope that now.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Let me just say this...

Last year, Phoenix was one of the most dominate teams in the LEAGUE without a Center.

Let me say that again... WiTHOUT A 2 way DOMINANT CENTER?

Damn, how could this be... How could they be one of the most dominant teams in the game WITHOUT A 2 way dominant Center?

In Walter's mind, that's what you need to win.

Well, the truth is that if any team can get a Center like he's talking about they could be very competitive. So Walter does have a point... BUT Walter fails to realize the reality. Those players are scarce.

In Walter's Mind...

Scarce means... Oh My God.. we need to get one at all cost. However, the truth is that Scarce means that there aren't many teams with the ability to dominate the post with a dominate 2 way Center.

In fact, until a change comes, a 2 way dominate Center not named Shaq won't amount to championships because the speed of the game is changing.

The next cycle in basketball is running. IN a running game, the Center means a lot less. Why do you think Wilt Chamberlain only have 2 championships to show for his 13 year career?

What we must do is find a way to master "team ball". That means team offense and team defense. So that weather we have this unicorn of positions filled or not, we can still be very competitive.

Now, let's refute some points

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A difficult to acquire player who would be our highly valuable team catalyst does not come cheap. Yet, when I highlight a player with that potential in Bynum many here cry foul at the mere perceived talent cost of Childress/Harrington. Whaaaa! WTF!?!

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You argument would be somewhat compelling IF the Lakers were willing to trade Bynum and IF Bynum were that good.

Bynum is a project big man who's team will not trade him. SO in essence, that's a closed deal.

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We just lost out on a trade AND did absolutely NOTHING to make this team a winner much less a contender.

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I agree 100%... maybe even higher.. 1000%. However, I can't just disregaurd the circumstances. I think our ownership issues is far worse than the current owners are willing to admit publicly. I believe that BK made the deal that he could make. Everything else that we have heard is just the smoke and mirrors.

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It's just sad and lame that we can't see much less realize the type move we most need to make because we are so busy getting players we don't really need or fumbling, bumbling, stumbling in deals for no players.

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I don't think you take into consideration our needs and our abilities. I think at some point, there will be moves made to get star quality players. However, before we get to that point, we have to explore the true value of our assets. I think this is the year that we will make some tough decisions.

That means you may seen the core become: Speedy, JJ, MW, SW..

I think we need to find out who's capable of playing and becoming a star and who is just an asset.

Back to your crying about a Center.

There are several Centers that will be in the upcoming draft. I personally would like to see us deal with Seattle for one of their Centers. Maybe Salim for Petro..

However, we have to wait and watch... No need in crying now...

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Excellent post.

And to further strengthen the comment about Phoenix, they've done it being undersized at BOTH center AND power forward.

What my boy Shawn Marion has been able to do for that team, is short of incredible. He's just not the type that is good a creating his own offense off the dribble. But the rest of his game is tremendous.

And look at Diaw in that Dallas - Phoenix series. He constantly abused Diop and Dampier by using his quickness to get to the rim. None of those cats could do anything with him.

Team ball is definitely the wave of the future of this league. You'll still have your star players. And stare will still dominate the game down the stretch. But it's going to be those teams that play great team ball, that will consistently win in this league.

That's why I KNOW we're going in the right direction.

Once again, great post Diesel.

[exodus]

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And you're wrong about us not needing a center who can score. We don't have any reliable scorers on this team, outside of JJ, so we need just about everybody on the team contributing on the offensive end, until someone emerges as a bonafide 2nd and 3rd option on this team.

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I have to disagree there. Most teams can only wish they had as many shooters as the Hawks. And I expect Marvin and Smith to become very effective scorers. If they don't then the Hawks are screwed regardless of who they get at center.

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And Ex, you need to take more baby steps in this rebuilding process.

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When it comes to getting a center you have to take opportunities when they come up because centers are so scarce. if you keep passing up opportunities you will wake up one day and there won't be any opportunities.

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We do need ZaZa's offense.

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Zaza shoots 45% and turns it over a lot. His offense isn't very valuable at all. His midrange jumper sucks and like you said he has trouble finishing near the rim.

[Diesel]

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Team ball is definitely the wave of the future of this league. You'll still have your star players. And stare will still dominate the game down the stretch. But it's going to be those teams that play great team ball, that will consistently win in this league.

That's why I KNOW we're going in the right direction.

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Hold on now.

Before we run on too long. I don't totally disagree with Walter. I'm a conservative basketball mind (if you will). I believe that Basketball goes in cycles and because of that, it's envogue to have a dominant big man and at times it's envogue to have a running team.

I'm not saying that Walter is 100% wrong in his want to have a big man. I'm saying that we are at a point in the cycle where it's not have a big man or lose.

I fully expect that big man revamp to be on it's way and very soon. Maybe Oden, Hawes, and Noah are the next three great bigs.

Historically, dominant Centers were always preceded by dominant PFs. I think we're right there now. With Bosh, Howard, Okafor, in the league now... It's similar to having Karl Malone, Buck Williams, Tom Chambers, etc that sprinkled the league before Ralph Sampson, Hakeem, David Robinson and Pat Ewing became the dominant forces in the league.

So.. what my message is is simple this.

At some point, yes, we will need a dominant center to be competitive. BUT we don't have to trade the whole team for a prospect right now. There will be better opportunities to get that. But right now, we can be just as competitive without a dominant 2 way C (just like Phoenix)

What I'm not suggesting is that we intend to stay the course without every getting a Center.

Hate to dash hopes here.

However I'm a fan of the old school Denver Nuggets... I think me and Dr. Zack maybe the only ones. That team was a masterpiece put together by Doug Moe. IN their heyday, they had Kiki, Alex English, David Thompson... playing with Dan Issel (6'9 ~240) playing C. They could out run most teams on most nights and put up plenty of points. They were probably the best, most athletic team ever put together. The problem is that when the true Centers came into the league, those nuggets were a laughing stock. They couldn't stop nothing. It wasn't until they got Dikembe Mutombo about 10 years too late that they finally made some noise with the run and gun system...

I believe that our pieces can work for now, but we will eventually need a big who can dominate (at least on the defensive end). For that reason, i would listen to a Dalembert trade? Because he fits with our style of play.

[exodus]

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Curious is anyone has heard the scoop on Lo and his signing.

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I was wondering about that. It is kinda strange but as Hawks fans we should be used to strange by now.

[Guest Walter]

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Last year, Phoenix was one of the most dominate teams in the LEAGUE without a Center.

Let me say that again... WiTHOUT A 2 way DOMINANT CENTER?

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For a guy who harped on the Kidd-factor so improving every player who played with him, I'm shocked that you don't see the equal if not greater Nash factor in Pheonix. We have nothing remotely close to Nash. Moreover, we have Woody, not D'Antoni. All that being said, Pheonix is a team who will soon be figured out and who didn't win anything of importance despite all the hoopla.

In general, when building a team do not build to resemble the RARE exception, build to resemble the tried and true. If you get the rare superstar then consider playing other talents out of position or changing your team strategy to the non-traditional, but not without such a rare superstar. Even then this methiod isn't prefered (like Cleveland with Lebron briefly at Pg). Pheonix seems to have two near rare superstars in Nash and their coach, but I don't see their moderate success lasting long without Amare returning to form.

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Well, the truth is that if any team can get a Center like he's talking about they could be very competitive. So Walter does have a point... BUT Walter fails to realize the reality. Those players are scarce.

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Actually, that IS my point. That's why I insist you have to be willing to take advantage of an opportunity to get such a player and be willing to PAY for them. IN FACT THE VERY POINT YOU ACCUSE ME OF IS THE POINT I MADE IN MY HEADING! Unbelievable.

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Scarce means... Oh My God.. we need to get one at all cost. However, the truth is that Scarce means that there aren't many teams with the ability to dominate the post with a dominate 2 way Center.

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It's not even about our dominating the post. With our desire to have a 2-Sf lineup with MW and JS, it's about not being dominated by other teams in the post. No other team but Pheonix is running a 2, Sf lineup. They all have size and skill advantages in the post against us.

Not only do we at least need a center who can hold down the post so we aren't dominated there, se need one so JS and MW are allowed to play their more perimeter oriented games. Otherwise, we're forcing them to pretend to be something they are not. That's never good, right?

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What we must do is find a way to master "team ball".

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You mean draft the next Steve Nash. That's exactly what it sounds like.

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That means team offense and team defense. So that weather we have this unicorn of positions filled or not, we can still be very competitive.

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As much as this is always a good idea, believe me, every other team is doing it as well and Woody is not the coach to do this. I'm not sure I want Josh Smith forced, MW, Speedy, and JJ to try covering for ZaZa's defense. I'd much rather it be the otherway around if anyone has to help anyone else. "weather"?

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Bynum is a project big man who's team will not trade him. SO in essence, that's a closed deal.

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Whose coach didn't want him and whose best palyer along with the team wants to win NOW and could with the help Bynum could acquire them.

I think you failure to address all of this and not even consider the talent-good deal for LA in Childress/Al for Bynum shows you can't really argue against this deal.

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I don't think you take into consideration our needs and our abilities. I think at some point, there will be moves made to get star quality players. However, before we get to that point, we have to explore the true value of our assets. I think this is the year that we will make some tough decisions.

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In a perfect world maybe. Next year we have less cap space, no Al to trade, and no high pick. That's alot less flexibility and expendable capitol. Meanwhile we assess our players with 2 of our 4 top picks on the bench behind the other 2 top picks. Not a way to assess your talent if you ask me. So we remain in a bad position to assess talent, continue to lose, have less flexibility and capitol to work with, HOPE that someone, particularly that rare someone who may not even be available next year, will want to come here and our young talent will stay after more losing.

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There are several Centers that will be in the upcoming draft. I personally would like to see us deal with Seattle for one of their Centers. Maybe Salim for Petro..

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Why not send them a ham sandwich instead? Ridiculous.

W

[Guest Walter]

Main point...Pheonix is not the blueprint for anybody who doesn't have Nash/D'antoni. If W-E plan on running a 2, Sf starting lineup we NEED the center I describe. Otherwise, no, but in OUR case that center is particularly important. It's rarity will cost us, but having one will free up our 2-Sfs to be themselves and not pretend to be post players.

Sorry.

Walter

[Sage11]

Walter, I don't see a "dominate" big other than shaq to play in the system you proposed we should mimic. What I see is a lot of good players, mostly big guys who are a colossal waste of height. I see many pretenders, but not one of those guys have risen to the level and performance of bigs of old, like Kareem, the Dream, and Wilt. I do not agree that we should trade the farm on tweeners with height. You seem eager to forfeit numerous talent on mediocre bigs and I do not see the prudence of that.