Did we tryout Sene?

[Guest Walter]

One of my biggest issues with our promising Sheldon Williams we would pick him 5th a month before the draft was our failure to try out many players prior to and (as a result of that promise) after that promise.

The one guy besides Roy or Foye who I thought could potentially help us the most was Sene. If we wanted the type of interior defense at a position of need in a player that wouldn't bench our best players, this was our guy (especially not Sheelhead). After watching many of his available highlights I say this is one more piece of evidence BK blew it promising a marginal top 9 pick role player not at a position of need with a 5th pick selection.

Watch the 2:15 mark for blocks only if you haven't seen this.

With Jack Sikma coaching this guy in Seattle I see big things for him. Young bigs with potential NEVER lose their value so they'll be asking top dollar for their center prospects. Still, if we're to argue BPA Roy and then Foye were the best. If we we're to argue need, both defense and at a position of need, Sene was our man, not SW.

Again, did we even tryout Sene? If not or if so, what on earth was BK thinking?

W

[AHF]

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Young bigs with potential NEVER lose their value so they'll be asking top dollar for their center prospects.

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2004 First Round Pick

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The next big thing? Literally a freak of nature, an enormous player but at the same time mobile and coordinated...Will be one of the first choices when he decides to enter the draft...

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http://nbadraft.net/profiles/pavelpodkolzine.asp

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He is a developing player with enormous size and tremendous potential.

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http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/PodkolzinePavel.html

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He's enormous. He's got a thick body, is very strong, yet is coordinated and an above average athlete for someone his size. He has soft hands, a very nice jump shot from 18 feet in and can really run the floor. He's even shown the ability to put the ball on the floor and hit the open man in transition. He's not afraid of contact and has the tendancy to pummel people.

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By all accounts Pavel is a much better draft prospect than he was last season. Considering that he was a likely mid-to late lottery prospect last year, what does that mean for this year? He impressed just about everyone in Treviso two weeks ago. He's really starting to come on. He has as much or more upside than anyone in the draft. He could go anywhere from 5 to 14 on draft night however because of the risks involved.

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http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft/d05/t...?playerId=18654

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Signed July 24, 2006

Cut August 4, 2006

NBA Life with Mavs - 2 years, 11 days. Trade value? You be the judge.

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Even guys who turn out to be pretty good can totally lose their value. What did the Cavaliers get for lottery pick Desagna Diop?

Sene may actually be more raw than Diop.

[DJlaysitup]

After watching in the summer league games, I think Pavel still has a future here in the U.S...most likely as a wrassler. To bad everybody knows where he's from - if he could market himself as an Iranian he'd make more money!

[Guest Walter]

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Even guys who turn out to be pretty good can totally lose their value. What did the Cavaliers get for lottery pick Desagna Diop?

Sene may actually be more raw than Diop.

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Pavel Podkolgiagantismfreak is your example? What a crock. If there is a center prospect anymore different than Sene is to Pavel I'd like to see it.

If you watched ANY of the highlights with Sene you will see suprising handles, a great hook shot (almost shoots it down at the rim, how can anyone defend that?!?), and consistent range to 12'. The under 19 game highlights that since it's a 9 minute clip. And he's played basketball how many years?

Diop will never have either of Sene's still raw offensive skills but still is valuable for Dallas. I'd love to have Diop.

W

[AHF]

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Even guys who turn out to be pretty good can totally lose their value. What did the Cavaliers get for lottery pick Desagna Diop?

Sene may actually be more raw than Diop.

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Pavel Podkolgiagantismfreak is your example? What a crock. If there is a center prospect anymore different than Sene is to Pavel I'd like to see it.

If you watched ANY of the highlights with Sene you will see suprising handles, a great hook shot (almost shoots it down at the rim, how can anyone defend that?!?), and consistent range to 12'. The under 19 game highlights that since it's a 9 minute clip. And he's played basketball how many years?

Diop will never have either of Sene's still raw offensive skills but still is valuable for Dallas. I'd love to have Diop.

W

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I think you missed the original post on this thread because my post wasn't about comparing players but was responding to a statement about retention of value by big men selected in the draft. The original poster said that young big men NEVER lose their value.

Pavel and Diop are two recent examples of big men who did. Others include:

Lottery Pick Todd Fuller

Lottery Pick Vitaly Potapenko (selected immediately before Kobe, Peja and Nash)

Lottery Pick Adonyl Foyle

Lottery Pick Tony Battie

Lottery Pick Robert "Tractor" Traylor

Lottery Pick Michael Doleac

Lottery Pick Keon Clark

Lottery Pick Aleksandar Radojevic

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Frederick Weis

Lottery Pick Joel Pryzbilla (again - the issue is not how good he is but how much value he retained which was next to none)

Lottery Pick Etan Thomas

Lottery Pick Desagna Diop (no trade value at the end of his rookie contract)

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Steven Hunter

The point is that these guys were highly rated young big men who were not Tim Duncan/Andew Bogut type locks in the same way that Sene was viewed as a high potential/high risk big man who was considered by many as a reach at the #10 pick in the draft. If young big men NEVER lost their value then the risk of taking one would be very low because if he didn't work out you would just trade him for someone better. That has happened in the past with players like Kwame Brown and Eddie Curry. However, the above list is all lottery picks from a roughly 8 year period who did not retain their value and whose original teams never got anything significant from them more than simply underacheiving play on the court.

That litany of big men and the even larger list of additional first round big men who had scouts raving (like Pavel) shows that big men frequently do not retain their value. NEVER is a very high threshold and that is not born out in actual observation of the young big men who have been drafted and been in the league long enough to see their value (or lack thereof) played out.

Diop is a perfect example of someone who had the ability to play but who lost so much value his team couldn't get more for him than a bag of donuts. Even when big men pan out they don't necessarily retain their value and they are then sometimes on another team by the time that value really starts to show (Diop, B.Miller, etc.).

[DJlaysitup]

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...Sene was viewed as a high potential/high risk big man who was considered by many as a reach at the #10 pick in the draft...

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If I'm not mistaken there were even a few posts hoping that we could pick up Sene with our second round pick. Personally, I didn't think he would drop past Phoenix. When he was picked at the 10-spot it was a stunner since no mocks had him near that high.

But hey...sometimes it's good to roll the dice on a potential guy if you have that kind of flexibility. Realistically, the Hawks approach was to get as "ready now" a big as possible (meaning Shelden).

[Guest Walter]

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Lottery Pick Todd Fuller

Lottery Pick Vitaly Potapenko (selected immediately before Kobe, Peja and Nash)

Lottery Pick Adonyl Foyle

Lottery Pick Tony Battie

Lottery Pick Robert "Tractor" Traylor

Lottery Pick Michael Doleac

Lottery Pick Keon Clark

Lottery Pick Aleksandar Radojevic

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Frederick Weis

Lottery Pick Joel Pryzbilla (again - the issue is not how good he is but how much value he retained which was next to none)

Lottery Pick Etan Thomas

Lottery Pick Desagna Diop (no trade value at the end of his rookie contract)

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Steven Hunter

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I see Diop and Pryz as having had real potential (and not just being big). Perhaps Foyle. But the other bigs you list were selected on all but size alone. I believe Pryz and Diop still have value. Foyle gets paid like he does.

Chandler, Curry, Kwame Brown, Jermaine O'neal (benched for his first 4 years if you recall) all had potential and no matter how little they developed their game (Chandler), their heart was (Curry), they lived up to the hype (Kwame), or how few minutes they played they always had value.

I similarly think Robert Swift, Bynum, Sene, of course Howard, and Frye have potential in addition to being big. Jackie Butler perhaps also despite being another 2nd rder like O'Neal.

It's POTENTIAL that makes a big continuously desireable. Nobody pays later for a stiff no matter how big but teams certainly will draft them if they are big enough. Again, have you looked at Sene or the clips. No stiff there. Lot's of potential. He's been playing the game only briefly but his physical tools are near as good or better than any player mentioned in this post. THAT'S called POTENTIAL and it doesn't fade like just being BIG does.

W

[gsuteke]

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One of my biggest issues with our promising Sheldon Williams we would pick him 5th a month before the draft was our failure to try out many players prior to and (as a result of that promise) after that promise.

The one guy besides Roy or Foye who I thought could potentially help us the most was Sene. If we wanted the type of interior defense at a position of need in a player that wouldn't bench our best players, this was our guy (especially not Sheelhead). After watching many of his available highlights I say this is one more piece of evidence BK blew it promising a marginal top 9 pick role player not at a position of need with a 5th pick selection.

Watch the 2:15 mark for blocks only if you haven't seen this.

With Jack Sikma coaching this guy in Seattle I see big things for him. Young bigs with potential NEVER lose their value so they'll be asking top dollar for their center prospects. Still, if we're to argue BPA Roy and then Foye were the best. If we we're to argue need, both defense and at a position of need, Sene was our man, not SW.

Again, did we even tryout Sene? If not or if so, what on earth was BK thinking?

W

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Jesus Walter what will you come up with next on the never ending "let's b!tch at Billy because he didn't bring in a top name Center" saga.

Saer Sene? Puhleaz! this dude was never heard of before a RealGM article was written about him this summer.

Can you say Priest Lauderdale?

I'm not a Shellhead guy but I think if SW is matched up against Sene this season SW will break his azz in half.

SW may be a foot shorter but what's Sene going to do, put his arms and hands between the basketball and the goal? if he does SW may jam not only the ball in the goal but he may get a chicken wing and 4 fingers down and through the rim as well.

bad example Walter.

Like I said, if you want to solve the Center problem get Billy's attention. Picket in front of his house or better yet start dating his daughter.

Perhaps you can sit between Shellhead and Zaza at BK's Thanksgiving table. that would be an appropriate time to start b!tching about us not drafting Saer Sene.

[gsuteke]

the guy getting facialed here is 7'2"

height does wonders

[gsuteke]

Saer Sene after attempting to block Shellhead's shot....

[Guest Walter]

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the guy getting facialed here is 7'2"

height does wonders

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I believe I'll use that word every multiple block game Sene has to describe you.

You very well know Sene is the exact opposite type big man than the guy in the picture. Not only will that never heppen to him, he will posterize many with his blocks. Anyhow, you can't defend BK's draft promise, failure to tryout the top talent, or his inability to address our need at center during this offseason in which we had the basketball world as our oyster. Take shots at Sene if you like. He'll be in this league longer than BK will be our GM.

W

[AHF]

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Lottery Pick Todd Fuller

Lottery Pick Vitaly Potapenko (selected immediately before Kobe, Peja and Nash)

Lottery Pick Adonyl Foyle

Lottery Pick Tony Battie

Lottery Pick Robert "Tractor" Traylor

Lottery Pick Michael Doleac

Lottery Pick Keon Clark

Lottery Pick Aleksandar Radojevic

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Frederick Weis

Lottery Pick Joel Pryzbilla (again - the issue is not how good he is but how much value he retained which was next to none)

Lottery Pick Etan Thomas

Lottery Pick Desagna Diop (no trade value at the end of his rookie contract)

Near-lottery Pick (15th) Steven Hunter

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I see Diop and Pryz as having had real potential (and not just being big). Perhaps Foyle. But the other bigs you list were selected on all but size alone. I believe Pryz and Diop still have value. Foyle gets paid like he does.

Chandler, Curry, Kwame Brown, Jermaine O'neal (benched for his first 4 years if you recall) all had potential and no matter how little they developed their game (Chandler), their heart was (Curry), they lived up to the hype (Kwame), or how few minutes they played they always had value.

I similarly think Robert Swift, Bynum, Sene, of course Howard, and Frye have potential in addition to being big. Jackie Butler perhaps also despite being another 2nd rder like O'Neal.

It's POTENTIAL that makes a big continuously desireable. Nobody pays later for a stiff no matter how big but teams certainly will draft them if they are big enough. Again, have you looked at Sene or the clips. No stiff there. Lot's of potential. He's been playing the game only briefly but his physical tools are near as good or better than any player mentioned in this post. THAT'S called POTENTIAL and it doesn't fade like just being BIG does.

W

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Your definition of POTENTIAL is meaningless and arbitrary. If Sene had been drafted 10 years ago and had Todd Fuller's career then you would be sitting here saying that he lacked POTENTIAL and should be disregarded.

Don't you think scouts believe these guys have POTENTIAL before they advise their teams to use a lottery pick to select them? Do you really need me to bring up the breathless reviews about the incredible "physical tools" that many of these big men had before their value dropped to next to nothing?

This argument is intellectually dishonest because your definition of POTENTIAL is entirely self-serving. Any reasonable person would acknowledge that guys selected in the lottery are viewed by teams as having POTENTIAL. If I gave you a list of Priest Lauderdale's I could understand an argument that height and potential are different. However, these guys were drafted in the same part of the draft as Sene and most were drafted in more talented drafts than he was.

Moreover, you say that POTENTIAL makes a big continuously desirable and that they NEVER lose this value. However, you have to admit that two of your examples, Diop and Pryzbilla, lost all their value after stumbling during their rookie contracts. Neither of them fetched more than a bag of donuts for the teams that drafted them despite having real POTENTIAL.

How did Pavel not have potential in the eyes of scouts?

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Updated: June 2, 2004, 11:59 AM ET

Pavel's upside is unmatched

Emeka Okafor may be more battle tested. Dwight Howard is certainly more athletic and skilled at the same age. But there is no one in the draft with a bigger upside than Pavel. At 7-foot-5 and 300 pounds (his measurements in Treviso), Pavel has the potential to dominate physically in the league some day. He is huge, strong, fairly athletic for a player his size and bursting with energy.

"The camp lit up the second he walked in," Warriors scout Ron Michaels told Insider. "The guys were feeding off his energy. I've never seen anything quite like it, or quite like him."

Neither has anyone else here. Most were left just shaking their heads after Pavel stepped into the camp and pummeled (literally) the top competition. He may not have played more than token minutes on his team in Varese this year, but the consensus from scouts who saw him work out here and in Chicago last year was that he's improved dramatically.

"Where do you find someone like that?" one longtime international scout asked. "Where do you find a player that size, that tough, that aggressive? He's going to be great."

That wasn't just the minority opinion here. It was the unanimous one. While a couple of NBA people were still worried about the risks associated with drafting Pavel, the 25 NBA people Insider talked to over the past two days unanimously agreed Podkolzine was the top international prospect in the draft.

Most went further. Twenty of the 25 NBA scouts, coaches and executives Insider interviewed claimed he should be a top-five pick based on what they saw here. Three scouts said he should be the third player taken in the draft. One respected international scout and one NBA executive said they'd take him No. 1 -- over Okafor and Howard -- if their team owned the No. 1 pick (they don't, by the way).

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Pavel has retained his amazing strength and coordination for a big guy. In individual workouts, no one could guard him in the post. He was just too strong, physical and aggressive. On the perimeter, he's a dead eye. During the 3-point drill run for big men by Mavs vice-president Donnie Nelson on Tuesday, Pavel hit 18 of 25 from behind the international 3-point arc -- the second-best tally in the camp.

What surprised a lot of people was Pavel's ability to handle and pass the ball in the open court. Several times during the event Pavel decided to play "point center" and was surprisingly adept running the show. He often got into showboating with the ball, making no-look passes and executing cross-over dribbles. Several scouts told him to quit clowning around, but privately they said he was the first kid that size who they've ever seen do something like that.

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http://proxy.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/col...tory?id=1814164

Under what definition does that not qualify as potential compared to someone like Pryzbilla?

[gsuteke]

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the guy getting facialed here is 7'2"

height does wonders

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I believe I'll use that word every multiple block game Sene has to describe you.

You very well know Sene is the exact opposite type big man than the guy in the picture. Not only will that never heppen to him, he will posterize many with his blocks. Anyhow, you can't defend BK's draft promise, failure to tryout the top talent, or his inability to address our need at center during this offseason in which we had the basketball world as our oyster. Take shots at Sene if you like. He'll be in this league longer than BK will be our GM.

W

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

[gsuteke]

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the guy getting facialed here is 7'2"

height does wonders

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I believe I'll use that word every multiple block game Sene has to describe you.

You very well know Sene is the exact opposite type big man than the guy in the picture. Not only will that never heppen to him, he will posterize many with his blocks. Anyhow, you can't defend BK's draft promise, failure to tryout the top talent, or his inability to address our need at center during this offseason in which we had the basketball world as our oyster. Take shots at Sene if you like. He'll be in this league longer than BK will be our GM.

W

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actually Walter I don't know anything about Saer Sene other than he's 7 foot whatever.

i don't think you know much else about him either.

and one more thing, don't ever describe me as a Billy Knight apologist again. if you want to maintain board cred Walter you can't go around saying silly stuff that you know is untrue.

[Guest Walter]

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

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Per 48 or per minute, yes he will.

W

[Guest Walter]

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actually Walter I don't know

anything

about Saer Sene other than he's 7 foot whatever.

i don't think you know much else about him either.

and one more thing, don't

ever

describe me as a Billy Knight apologist again. if you want to maintain board cred Walter you can't go around saying silly stuff that you know is untrue.

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That after watching the highlights of Sene entirely, this guy is a very good prospect with GREAT tools. THAT is what I know about him. The fact that you don't know "anything" about him per your report but post many multiple responses to one of my posts about how bad he will be is amussing if not unbelievable. If you don't know anything, watch the film and/or put your hands in mittens so they won't make you look so foolish.

He's not just 7' BTW. He can standing reach the rim per reports.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Don't you think scouts believe these guys have POTENTIAL before they advise their teams to use a lottery pick to select them?

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In some cases I believe they just saw size (Weis) in most others I don't agree that there was ever potential there regardless of what "they" saw.

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Moreover, you say that POTENTIAL makes a big continuously desirable and that they NEVER lose this value. However, you have to admit that two of your examples, Diop and Pryzbilla, lost all their value after stumbling during their rookie contracts.

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I will agree that "never" is never a good choice of words. Simply put, bigs with potential lose their value less than similarly talented smalls with potential. Is that correct enough for you? We'll just have to disagree with what the definition of potential is as I can't clearly define it for you but I often can see the difference in players for myself. Too bad we didn't even work out Sene (or >half the top prospects) to even get that chance.

W

[gsuteke]

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

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Per 48 or per minute, yes he will.

W

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per 48? so what you are saying is he will play less minutes than Sheldon on a Seattle team this is worse than the Hawks? that's preposterous!

if the dude can't play right now why draft him in the first round? what good is he going to do sitting at the end of the bench?

take a poll on this thread Walter. I'm not the one who looks foolish here.

[gsuteke]

even at 7' whatever you still have to be able to leave your feet on defense

[Guest Walter]

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

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READ THE POST! I qualified per48 or MPG because Sene will not get as many MPG, but he will block more shots per minute than SW and that's despite him playing the C vs. Pf positions against taller players. I mean his standing reach is 9" greater than SW. He has alot to learn and with the experience difference it will be close, but his tools will earn him more BPM.

W