Bernie on radio this morning.

[DJlaysitup]

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...If Diaw would have competed when he was here that might not have been the case. I get your point about BUs but Diaw isn't a comparable example to Josh and Marvin who have both demonstrated real success already.

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Agreed - plus they were trying to force Diaw into a position he wasn't comfortable with most of the time here. Once he got to be a more traditional big in PHX he looked much better.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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And why are people all up in arms about Marvin or Smoove coming off the bench?

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Because they're smart people.

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Smart? Really? If anything, bringing Marvin or Smoove off the bench will give this team some extra firepower to play against the other 2nd teamers in this league. It's obvious that none of you have even considered that the guy coming off the bench, could very well be the #1 option in the offense from the end of the 1st quarter through the early and mid 2nd quarter . . and also from the end of the 3rd quarter through the early and mid 4th quarter. This is the time when JJ is more likely to get his rest, so we're going to need a guy who can keep the offensive momentum going when he's out.

Which forward combo would you rather have out on the floor when JJ is out and the other starter needs some rest . . Marvin/Smoove and Childress . . or Shelden and Childress? Because if you start both Marvin and Smoove, both of those guys will more than likely be out of the game once the 1st and 3rd quarter ends. So if the scenario comes about where Marvin or Smoove is coming off the bench, one of those guys will have a great opportunity to shine when the starters are out.

It's the very reason why a guy like Jerry Stackhouse NEVER complained about coming off the bench, even though he's a far better player than a guy like Adreian Griffin or a Devin Harris.

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When it is all said and done, both guys will get 30 minutes a game, and both guys could arguably be in the game during crunch time, depending on who we're playing and what the situation is in the game.

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1) we traded Harrington for peanuts and Diaw as a "throw-in" because JS and MW were supposed to start at the forwards and because MW and because of our existing forward glut respectively.

2) JS and MW are significantly more talented than SW with either MW or JS.

3) Neither MW or JS will resign to be a BU.

4) Their value diminishes as a BU

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1) LOL . . we were lucky to get anything for Al, seeing that he was an unrestricted free agent. Most unrestricted free agents in this league leave teams without the team getting anything back in return. Harrington was traded to make room for Marvin, there's no doubt on that. But that's because most people could see that Harrington was incapable of being the star player or the leader of this team. And his presence on the defensive end was killing this team. So why not get a younger guy that exhibits more raw talent than a guy like Harrington, who is probably as good as he's going to get now.

Diaw was a straight up SCRUB here. Don't act like the entire world saw this great all-star caliber player 2 years ago. YOU didn't even see it. Even his situation in Phoenix came about because of injury. If Amare and KT were healthy, Diaw never plays center for that team, and would be relegated to being a key role player off the bench that MIGHT get you 9 points, 5 rebs, and 4 assists. The minutes for Diaw to do his thing simply wouldn't have been there. Those are good numbers for a BENCH player though. Having said that, the choice between Marvin and Diaw was a NO BRAINER 15 months ago.

It'll be like justifying keeing Royal Ivey but letting him go. Then when he went to his new team, he blossomed into a rising star at the combo guard position. When that happens, a person like you would be crying to the heavens, talking about how we should've kept Ivey . . lol.

2) Of course JS and MW are more talented than SW. But when we play teams with a strong frontcourt, a JS/MW starting lineup may not be in the best interest of the Hawks. You forget that just about every PF in the league last year, had a field day against us. If JS or MW can't effectively guard PFs, then you HAVE to start Shelden and play him significant minutes there, until one or both of those guys can prove that they can defend PFs in this league. Shelden himself even has to prove that he can guard PFs. But his body type makes him a better candidate to be successful defensively and on the boards.

3) And you know this how? Marvin is in his 2nd year and has a lot to prove. He's not going to be discouraged if he's the one coming off the bench, but still getting 30 minutes a game. It won't be until both of these guys prove that they can be viable #2 options for a team, that they MIGHT become disgruntled. If one of those guys are coming off the bench, but is averaging 15 - 17 ppg . . 7 rebs . . in 30 minutes of game time . . and is consistently in the game during crunch time, you won't hear too much out of either guy.

4) Wrong again Walter. You're assuming that because one of the guys aren't starting, that their value diminishes. LOL . . tell that to T-Mac, who went from a key 6th man with the Raptors, to superstardom with the Magic. That may very well be the destiny of either Marvin or Smoove. But that destiny won't be sidetracked if one of them is coming off the bench and still getting 30 minutes a game and making big plays down the stretch.

Your argument that Marvin or Josh may want to leave in a few years, further strengthens the argument for having Shelden around. And even that argument is flawed, because we can pay Josh his money in 2008, and not even have to worry about Marvin until the 2009 season. Two years gives us plenty of time to see which player will be the best, and if it is in the best interest of the Hawks to keep one or both guys.

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And you keep harping on the fact that Shelden was the #5 pick, like he's supposed to be the savior of the franchise or something. The Hawks needed interior talent . . . PERIOD.

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I can get that for the mid-level Ex. I can pay slightly more for a say Pryz and not bench JS or MW.

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LOL . . almost all of your arguments are based on wild and improbable speculation. It's pretty obvious that Przy wasn't going to be easy to pry away from Portland. With all of these teams needing a center, it was Portland who was able to keep the guy, plus add other people to the mix.

Oh I know, your master plan would be to draft Roy and play him a the point, and make a run a Przy in free agency. But if you failed to get Przy, we'd be right back to square 1 with our interior defense issue. We'd have a nice run and gun team, but we'd still get murdered on the inside, thus, we'd still lose a ton of close games. Or your 2nd plan was to trade down and draft Sene and get that great Hawks center of the future . . lol. Your entire thinking is flawed Walter. Everybody on this board knows it but you.

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So they took what they thought was the best interior player on the board, in Shelden.

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He will not be better than Sene within 4 years no matter hwo you compare them. Is SW costing us JS or MW and the necessary talent to contend worth that when bigger, better prospects were available?

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LOL . . who were the bigger and better prospects? It's interesting to see your infatuation about Sene, when he wasn't even one of the top 5 guys talked about in this draft, when it came to big men. Those guys were Bargnani ( who is really more of a SF ), Tyus Thomas ( who is also more of a SF ), Aldridge, O'Bryant, and Shelden. Sene didn't even come on the radar, until people saw video clips of him blocking shots and looking good against vastly inferior competition. SW isn't costing us Marvin or Smith. SW is solidifying the interior defense of this team, when he's in the game. Marvin and Smooth will have plenty of opportunity to do their thing on the court. But Shelden is essentially our defensive insurance policy, if Marvin or Smoove can't defend PFs down low. As Shelden becomes a better player, he may even win out at PF, forcing Marvin or Smoove to the bench. But if Smoove and Marvin up their games, they'll not only get the PT, but they'll keep Shelden on the bench.

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Taking a more talented player at a different position, doesn't address what was really wrong with this team last year.

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MW wasn't/isn't more talented than Paul, yet you insist that we take the most talented player then. What happened?

BTW, name the humber of times the Hawks have had a 5th or higher draft pick. A 5th pick can be franchise changing. You don't pick a BU quality role palyer with it EVER!

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I didn't insist that we take Paul over Marvin. Most of us wouldn't have been mad at all if we chose Paul. Paul would've easily been the PG here for 10 years. Personally, I was on the Bogut bandwagon because I knew we needed a big man with some skills that we could possibly play at center. But I also wasn't mad at the Marvin choice, because I know that he's going to be a very nice player in this league. SENE, on the other hand, is a total crap shoot. NBAdraft.net compares him to Dikembe, but Dikembe was a COMPLETE player, not just a one-dimensional shot blocking wonder. Dikembe could defend, score down on the block, and even find the open man when double teamed. The ONLY thing that Sene has shown, is that he's athletic and that he can block shots. PERIOD.

As far as the #5 pick in the draft being franchise changing, you're exactly right on that. But as a team, you have to take the guy that will help your team the most, not a guy who is the sexy pick. That's why people criticize us so much about skipping on Chris Paul. But those same people know better to not call Marvin Williams a bust, with all of the skills he has as a b-ball player. So now that we take the safe pick in Shelden, a guy that will help us the most THIS YEAR, there's a huge problem with that logic? LOL.

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It would be like the Detroit Lions taking ANOTHER receiver to boost their offense, when their real problem lies on the defensive side of the football.

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Why not get immediate, better defensive help in FAcy for less "currency" like Atlanta did on the D-line?

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LOL . . see, you're not telling the entire story again. And I'm assuming that you're talking about John Abraham. Abraham had pretty much burned his bridge with the Jets, and that organization just wanted to get rid of him. So of course you make a deal for him and bring him in.

But let's go back to the Hawks for a second. As a fan of this team, you know that this isn't necessarily a hot spot for free agents to come here. Just about every guy we get to come here, we have to OVERPAY for their services. We did it to bring in JJ and we did it to bring in Speedy. And even when we do overpay, guys still bypass this organization.

So if you have a chance to get a defensive player via the draft, and defense is your MAIN problem, you pretty much have to go that route and not worry about what anybody else says.

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Shelden will play the 4, with getting spot minutes at the 5, depending on who we're playing.

Smoove, Marvin, and Childress will ALL play 30 minutes a game, along with JJ and possibly Speedy. Everybody else on this team is an interchangeable part around these guys.

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If Childress plays 30 MPG I'll give you $5 bucks. If he doesn't you give me $5. Deal?

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That's a deal. Walter, you need to get your mind out of guys playing certain positions ONLY. Childress is going to play 2 positions on this team. So will Marvin. So will Smoove. If we're going to put our best team on the floor, the minutes will be there for those guys.

And just because Shelden might start, doesn't mean that he'll play 30 minutes a game. In fact, I'd be shocked if he did play that much. The guy I'm looking at, is ZaZa. With Lorenzen and Shelden now in the mix, his time could drop considerably.

Even if Childress doesn't play 30 minutes a game, the thing that matters is how efficient he is when he does play. If Chill does get 30 MPG, that probably means that this team is winning and that JJ isn't forced to play 38 - 40 minutes a game. I'd love to see JJ's minutes get down to around the 33 - 35 mark, with him being much fresher down the stretch of games.

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Shelden may start, but may only see 25 minutes a game. The game situation will dictate who will be in at PF, and who won't.

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And that is enough of a snub insult to send JS or MW looking for a new team with a starting opportunity.

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No sir, it isn't. It's not going to be Shelden's play that eventually sends one of these guys elsewhere. It's going to be their OWN play that creates a buzz about them, and send them elsewhere.

If Smoove plays great this season, people will come after him left and right next summer. With Harrington gone, the Hawks are in a good situation to match any offer to the guy, that's not a MAX deal. And keep this in mind Walter. Only Hawks fans have a high amount of respect for Smoove. If this team is still mediocre, his respect level will go up, but it's not like this guy is going to command a MAX deal. We can easily afford Smoove, if the best deal he can get is a 5 year - 45 million deal. You saw what happened to Harrington during the offseason. He was looking for big money, and didn't get it. He didn't get it because there are a glut of good SFs in this league. NEne got his 10 million, because people are so desperate for center-like talent.

But this is also a scenario that we don't even have to worry about for 2 years. And Marvin is guaranteed to be a Hawk for at least another 3 years.

[Guest Walter]

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If anything, bringing Marvin or Smoove off the bench will give this team some extra firepower to play against the other 2nd teamers in this league.

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Great. Let's make our #2 pick into our bench sniper. I say we get ourselves down by 8 before we bring him in just to make it fair.

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It's obvious that none of you have even considered that the guy coming off the bench, could very well be the #1 option in the offense from the end of the 1st quarter through the early and mid 2nd quarter

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1) None of these guys are Vinny Johnson. 2) We won't take out 5 starters and put in 5 BUs so there should almost always be a starter in who is a better than any 1 BU. 3) I thought Childress would be our quality BU 2nd teamer. Why do we need so many, much less so many BUs that are lottery picks?

[quoteIt's the very reason why a guy like Jerry Stackhouse NEVER complained about coming off the bench, even though he's a far better player than a guy like Adreian Griffin or a Devin Harris.

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[thesheedera]

In the words of the little kid from Jerry Maguire..."You talk too much"

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( Laughing and shaking my head . . . talking to the Lord ))

"Lord . . I at least tried to explain the situation to the man, but he worries so much that no one can ease his anxiety."

I like the way you take "soundbites" of posts, and respond to them, instead of the entire thought in a paragraph.

In one of your responses, I was specifically talking about Marvin replacing Harrington, and you respond with this?

"SW "exhibits more raw talent than Harrington"? What planet are you from? When I think SW I utterly do not think "raw talent".

I just had to laugh at that response from you. And you did it more than once in your last response.

Walter, bottom line is this:

- YES, we do need a legit center here. But a LEGIT one, not a prospect. Olowokandi was a prospect. Sene is a prospect. We need a LEGIT big man here.

- NO, Shelden isn't suppressing neither Josh Smith or Marvin Williams.

- YES, the Hawks will probably re-sign Josh Smith . . IF . . he shows some consistency and marked improvement.

- YES, the Hawks would like to retain Chill, if he shows that same improvement. But he's definitely expendible.

- NO, not many teams will be able to throw tons of money at Josh, especially the ones already well under the cap. Why? Because they already have very good SFs or young SFs that they're trying to develop.

- YES, Marvin will be a Hawk through 2009.

- NO, we don't have to worry about Marvin until that time.

- YES, Marvin or Smoove may very well become the best player on this team in 3 years.

- YES, there's a chance that we may have to move one of them, but there's that same chance that we could retain BOTH of them.

- YES, Shelden will be able to hold his own on the NBA level as he fine tunes his game to the NBA style of play, not the Duke system style.

- YES, this entire argument is crazy, seeing that neither guy is going anywhere anytime soon, unless we feel the need to trade them.

Now if you want to individually go down and break down the post, you can.

Personally, I'm looking forward to Wednesday in Memphis. I'm going to try to get down there and catch the game.

[Buzzard]

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5th was the earliest possible pick he was going to go but there is no way he would have fallen to 15, IMO.

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This is so true. If Shelden can beat someone out so be it. He was going to be a lottery pick whether we took him or not; and that indicates we were not the only team that saw him as a starter. Does not matter to me who takes the floor. I just want to see our best five out there...

There seems to be more "player" fans than there are Hawk fans on this board lately. Probably has something to do with the Nintendo generation. All showboating XBox moves that have nothing to do with the reality of the NBA. This aint about being a MW, Smoove, or Shelden fan. It is about wanting to see our team get this lottery mess turned around.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

VERY GOOD OBSERVATION MR. BUZZARD !!

I'm all about seeing this team improve, no matter who we have out on the floor. I know we have a lot of Josh Smith fans here, but I still don't like the fact that he seems to coast more often than not. He may have superstar skills, but he doesn't have a superstar work ethic yet.

Some people on this board are already talking like Smoove and Marvin are all-star players, or are locks to be that. LOL . . nothing is a lock in the NBA.

I routinely call Smoove the "Black AK47", but Andrei works much harder than Smoove does.

[Buzzard]

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Some people on this board are already talking like Smoove and Marvin are all-star players, or are locks to be that. LOL . . nothing is a lock in the NBA.

I routinely call Smoove the "Black AK47", but Andrei works much harder than Smoove does.

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Thanks man. Some of these posters act like this is a popularity contest. They spend all their energy hating on some players while they try and garner votes for their favorite players. They actually think their vote means something. Its hilarious if you think about it.

It is good to see that someone who actually loves Smoove still has enough sense to understand this. It is all about winning. If we had to trade away everyone of our picks over the last three years to put together a winner, it would not hurt my feelings one bit.

I want to see us making a run just like we did in the years of Nique. MWill, Smoove, Chillz, Shelden, JJ, if they cannot get it done in the next two years, then we need to find some players who can. To hell with the homerism, give me a damn playoff team!