Bernie on radio this morning.

[Guest Walter]

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yes and no. first they didn't know if josh smith can gain that 15 pounds and be effective at 4(still unknown) and we need depth even if smith can be good there. plus what would y'all think if we draft another swingman, ie roy? i'm sure a lot of you, maybe even myself will be "disappointed" about getting another swingman. and starting isn't everything with woodson, didn't ivey start last year?

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...weighs 240?!? That's what a recent report stated indicating JS planned to be down to 235 by the start of the season.

My 1st point...that if he started at 225 like he was at the predraft combine, gains 15, and gains another 15 he should be at 255 right now. Obviously, the "gains" are inflated at least they must reflect relative to end season weight (as players must lose weight playing 82 games).

2nd point, even if JS did weigh 255 and he didn't lose his explosiveness, he doesn't want to be nor does he have the difficult to acquire skills to be a Pf. Does that mean we can't run a 2-Sf offense with the right center? No!

3rd point, when on earth did Roy become a "swingman". His college coach called him an NBA Pg.

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and we need depth even if smith can be good there

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4th point, can anyone name the last 5th overall (or top 7?) pick that was not considered a bust as a BU?

ANYONE?!?

YOU DO NOT DRAFT A BU WITH THE 5TH OVERALL PICK!

YOU DO NOT BENCH ONE OF YOUR TWO BEST PROSPECTS BY USING A 5TH OVERALL PICK ON A LESS TALENTED PLAYER!

You won't contend for a title when you make these crucial mistakes.

W

[Final_quest]

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My 1st point...that if he started at 225 like he was at the predraft combine, gains 15, and gains another 15 he should be at 255 right now. Obviously, the "gains" are inflated at least they must reflect relative to end season weight (as players must lose weight playing 82 games).

4th point,

can anyone name the last 5th overall (or top 7?) pick that was not considered a bust as a BU?

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1st point, I totally agree. Bernie's credibility is getting pathetic. Just say he keeps getting stronger and bigger. Unless this guy gains and loses 15 pounds every year those numbers are way off.

4th point. Mike Miller comes to mind, but what about our own Josh Childress? Ben Gordon has started occasionally, but if he remained a 6th man no way is he a bust.

[Diesel]

Which player is the actual repetitive player here Walt?

It's not SW. He has played PF his whole career and projects as a PF.

MW has been repetitive since we got him. When we got him, we had Smoove, Al, Donta, and Diaw all playing Sf. Hell, even Chillz is a better Sf than Sg. We picked MW anyway.

It seems to me that instead of bitching and complaining daily about us finally getting a real Pf.. You might need to start at the root of the problem... redundancy at the Sf.

If we were to trade either Smoove or Marvin for a championship calibre player... let's say Harris would you still have your daily tirades about Shelden?

It would seem to me that Shelden would fit perfectly.

Let's put it the other way around now.

If we trade Shelden for let's say Harris...

We would then have to go out and find a defensive big because neither of your highly regarded players are Pfs.

[Nicholasp27]

a) walt has spent 393 days bitching about marvin williams, so why are u asking him to start that up again?

b) walt wants us to get a center that will allow us to run the smoove/marvin tandem; he says zaza/lo don't cut it

[DJlaysitup]

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...YOU DO NOT BENCH ONE OF YOUR TWO BEST PROSPECTS BY USING A 5TH OVERALL PICK ON A LESS TALENTED PLAYER!

You won't contend for a title when you make these crucial mistakes.

W

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Of course it's not Shelden's fault that the Hawks have two or three talented and promising small forwards and somebody has to sit the bench...that's a Hawks management issue. The idea that "Josh and Marvin have to be on the floor at the same time" isn't realistic (IMO). The Hornets did something similar last year in playing CP3 and Speedy at the same time - but they weren't silly enough to pay Speedy and do it again this year.

That said, I figure Josh will see some time at PF this year, but hopefully not a whole lot.

[gsuteke]

Roy is not a PG. he's a combo guard. we already have one of those in Joe Johnson. I wanted Roy myself as I stated on this board many times before I realized drafting him would be like shoving a round peg in a square hole.

if we would have drafted Roy we would be creating the same problems for ourselves in the backcourt as we have at the forward position.

and we'd still have no PF.

the team is a legit Center and some depth at PG away from being very solid for years to come.

[exodus]

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he says zaza/lo don't cut it

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Which is absolutely true, unless the goal is to be an average team.

[Weez]

how is Shelden having 'less talent' than any of our other young swings a 'detriment' to him? do you mean that he has fewer 'overall/ all-round skills' than our other young players? the ones that 'supposed' to be able to play some time on the wing/back-court? maybe you could parlay this into your reasoning for the first detriment...but as a stand alone complaint, it's pretty weak.

das for the third one...how is his being here going to make it more difficult to resign any of the other three, given that they're up for contract extensions before him? if he pans out to the point that we're trying to 'save money' to resign him (and we'll have his bird rights), then I'd say that would be justification for his having been a VERY good pick...

[Yeti]

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and we'd still have no PF.

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Are you sure we have a PF now? If you mean SW, he's got to show us something first. At least to start with I think Smoove has to be the man.

[Diesel]

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walt wants us to get a center that will allow us to run the smoove/marvin tandem; he says zaza/lo don't cut it

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Maybe we can put old man Deke in the time machine and have him come back to the Hawks in 1991 form!

Otherwise, where do we find this magic unicorn called a good two way center. What team that has one is willing to give him up for a dime a dozen Forward?

In my mind you had two directions this offseason.

1. Pick up BPA and Hope against Hope that you can land a defensive C in FA.

2. Pick up a mature PF in the draft, and get all of your other needs in FAcy..

Let's be honest... there were no real PGs in this draft. I would classify both Roy and Foye as JTerry like OGs... guys who will probably never develop the ability to run an offense successfully.

So, with 1, we would either pick up another swingman(Gay) or pick up a player who would find himself on the bench behind JJ... Hey, didn't we do that with Salim. Then we would have probably overpaid to get Chandler or old man Wallace. Wait... we had money issues come to light... we would have probably just settled for Lo Wright...

In case #2, we did get a defensive big. We also got a PG out of free agency. Like it or not, we stopped the revolving door of not having a complete team this offseason. We have every position accounted for with a guy that actually does play the position. Unlike before, this is now not a team that has 5 Sfs and it's fanbase trying to convince the world that ONE is a PG (Diaw), ONE is a PF (Harrington), and One is a C (Smoove).

[Guest Walter]

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[Guest Walter]

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he says zaza/lo don't cut it

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Which is absolutely true, unless the goal is to be an average team.

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...We have JO or the like at Pf. Even then maybe not, but I'd take my chances.

W

[Guest Walter]

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how is Shelden having 'less talent' than any of our other young swings a 'detriment' to him?

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Because while MW and JS are both Sfs (not "swings" at all), with the right center prospect allowing them to play their perimeter oriented game without the team conceeding the post (and there have been a few to pass us by), they could make for a dominate duo at the forwards.

SW's was a 5th overall pick. He does nothing to allow these more talented, but differing skilled Sfs, to further their games together. He only runs the same interferance that Harrington did. We didn't need to use a 5th pick on that. Why not just resign Harrington to bench JS or MW?

Simply, SW is significantly less talented than either MW or JS. He has significantly less upside than either MW or JS. We can not afford the sacrifice in talent and upside and expect to win anything of importance. SW cost us a 5th overall pick. The 5th overall pick could have been parlayed to otherwise resolve the issue by acquiring the right player at the right position (trade down and get Sene, other deals?) or could have gotten even more talent in Roy or Foye, after which, with an excess of talent more deals could have been made fi needed. There may not be another top 5 pick with less trade value than SW in at least several years so a trade of him cannot occur and drafting him brings us no closer despite his 5th pick cost if it continues to force us to trade either MW or JS.

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how is his being here going to make it more difficult to resign any of the other three, given that they're up for contract extensions before him? if he pans out to the point that we're trying to 'save money' to resign him (and we'll have his bird rights), then I'd say that would be justification for his having been a VERY good pick...

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If SW starts then MW or JS don't. That means Josh Childress is benched further regardless who starts ahead of him. Neither MW or JS will resign as BU's, nor will Josh Childress.

SW can turn out to be a very good pick (worthy of starting) but still equate very bad utilization of our draft capitol. He may start but be less talented, and given our team needs more talent to contend, starting SW may result in mediocrity and/or because he starts we do not utilize or get the value out of MW or JS and Childress, (further) reduce our team talent.

[Guest Walter]

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In my mind you had two directions this offseason.

1. Pick up BPA and Hope against Hope that you can land a defensive C in FA.

2. Pick up a mature PF in the draft, and get all of your other needs in FAcy..

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You have a high draft pick. A potentially dominant defensive center prospect can standing touch the rim. Get your defensive center then. Oh wait, we didn't even try him out. Oops.

If I wanted a "mature Pf" then all I had to do is resign Al. He's a better overall player than SW, BTW.

I don't mind your 1st option, your 2nd is ridiculous, and there is a 3rd as I have mentioned.

W

[gsuteke]

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In my mind you had two directions this offseason.

1. Pick up BPA and Hope against Hope that you can land a defensive C in FA.

2. Pick up a mature PF in the draft, and get all of your other needs in FAcy..

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You have a high draft pick. A potentially dominant defensive center prospect can standing touch the rim. Get your defensive center then. Oh wait, we didn't even try him out. Oops.

If I wanted a "mature Pf" then all I had to do is resign Al. He's a better overall player than SW, BTW.

I don't mind your 1st option, your 2nd is ridiculous, and there is a 3rd as I have mentioned.

W

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are you still talking about that toilet wand Saer Sene? then you say Al is a mature PF? Al is a better overall player? apparently you haven't noticed that the Hawks have a defensive problem, not an offensive problem.

[Guest Walter]

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are you still talking about that toilet wand Saer Sene?

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Yes, the very one you will not take a challenge over despite me giving you 10 minutes and your petty pictorial of emaciated africans and white guys "depicting" him.

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then you say Al is a mature PF?

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Yes, he is. So is Wilcox, PJ Brown, and many others.

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Al is a better overall player?

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Yes, he is.

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apparently you haven't noticed that the Hawks have a defensive problem, not an offensive problem.

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Actually, they have a talent problem when they use a 5th overall pick to draft a less talented individual with less upside to bench a more talented individual with more upside.

SW only shifts our problem from one side of the court to the next. He is no better defensively than Harrington is offensively and offensively he is no better than Al defensively. You don't use a #5 pick to shift your problems from one side of the ball to the next when you are a 26 win team and you d@mn sure don't bench your best prospect in the process.

When a #5 pick is at best a PUSH and best prospect benching individual, you LOST in the draft!

[gsuteke]

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are you still talking about that toilet wand Saer Sene?

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Yes, the very one you will not take a challenge over despite me giving you 10 minutes and your petty pictorial of emaciated africans and white guys "depicting" him.

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then you say Al is a mature PF?

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Yes, he is. So is Wilcox, PJ Brown, and many others.

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Al is a better overall player?

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Yes, he is.

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apparently you haven't noticed that the Hawks have a defensive problem, not an offensive problem.

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Actually, they have a talent problem when they use a 5th overall pick to draft a less talented individual with less upside to bench a more talented individual with more upside.

SW only shifts our problem from one side of the court to the next. He is no better defensively than Harrington is offensively and offensively he is no better than Al defensively. You don't use a #5 pick to shift your problems from one side of the ball to the next when you are a 26 win team and you d@mn sure don't bench your best prospect in the process.

When a #5 pick is at best a PUSH and best prospect benching individual, you LOST in the draft!

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....... at times. i am not an extremist.

i don't disagree with you Walter, yet I hardly agree all at the same time.

you are right when you say Shellhead is not up to par with Harrington offensively.

However when you say that Shellhead is on the same level as Al "matador" defensively i think you are letting your hatred for Billy Knight just as I allowed mine in the past to cloud your vision.

I will stake my Hawksquawk reputation, however good or bad it may be, on the fact that Shelden Williams will have absolutely no resemblance to Al "matador" this season on the defensive side of the ball and more importantly neither will the Hawks' team resemble that of the 2006 campaign while "the Alien" is on the court.

Shelden will serve his purpose whether you agree with that purpose or not and the Hawks will give up 5 less points per game this season than last. will it all be because of Shellhead? no. but will it net us 10 more wins w/o our supposed "best" player from last season in some doofus's eyes? yes.

[Diesel]

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Agreed. MW and JS are more redundant in terms of position than SW relative to either player, but they are not redundant in terms of skill and both are infinately more talented with more upside than SW!

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This is that BS you've been passing off as a good argument. Let Diesel destroy it for you...

Jason Terry and Brevin Knight were two PGs with "different skillsets" Knight was a pure PG, JT was an OG. Do you remember what happened when we put them on the floor together?

That history lesson teaches us that Position does matter. Knight and Terry for as good as they were individually got Pummelled when we tried to play them as our PG, SG. The problem, neither could gaurd the Sg position. In fact, it made both of them look worse on the court together than they did with a real SG. The truth is that JT played better with Jim Jackson (The Journeyman) next to him than he did with Brevin Knight next to him. Brevin Knight played much better with Wesley Person next to him than he did with JT next to him.

You have the same problem with Marvin and Smoove. Neither of them have the essential skills of a PF nor can neither defend the position. Why do you think our GM went out to get a "real" PF? Do you think he targetted Shelden because he's an idoit? Of course you do... However, he knows that Marvin and Smoove are redundant and their Skill set is not so different. Marvin handles the ball better than Smoove. Smoove is a Shot blocker. Neither of them has the post game or the post defense of a PF. We learned that when we played Milwaukee last year with Al out. Marvin and Smoove starting Forwards... Sorry ass Bogut had his career high against that group... Who do you blame?? Zaza?? Don't make me laugh...

A mere difference in a skillset that is not relative to the essential skills of the PF does not justify playing these guys out of position.... PERIOD!

[Diesel]

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I believe us more likely to win a title with a non-traditional lineup (right center and 2, differently skilled, overwhelmingly atheletic Sfs) than a traditional lineup with HUGE relative talent gaps and deficiencies. SW's solved NONE of our problems and even worsened the problems that existed here with Harrington.

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Every championship team has players who played a certain role that made that team "more traditional"... Every one. Having High talent at every position without having those "glue Players" have never amounted to nothing... Ask the PTL trailblazer fans what I mean.

I love the example of the Houston Rockets... Hakeem and a bunch of "glue players". Individually, none of those other guys were worth much talk. However, when you put them together and told them their role, they dominated...

Now, let's look at the team that Houston fielded a few years later: Hakeem, Clyde, Scottie Pippen, and Charles Barkley. Why did that team fall apart? They were much more talented than either of the other Houston Championship teams. What was the problem? The problem was with all that talent, they didn't have the glue.

Back to our problem. Championship basketball will always favor the team that is closer to "classic". These positions have been defined over years and years of play. We're not the first team to put a big squad on the floor. People have been doing it since Milwaukee did it back in the 70s. Hell, since the Showtime lakers won with it. The difference is that even in that laker team, they paid attention to position. They didn't trade off Jabber for some cream puff center. You will notice as the years continued for the Lakers and they did make changes, that the changes took them away from a championship. That is to say that AC Green was more of a PF than Sam Perkins. That is to say that Kareem was a better C than Vlade.

Having an abundance of talent is good... but I would rather have every position accounted for than to have a team full of players playing out of position.

[Diesel]

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You have a high draft pick. A potentially dominant defensive center prospect can standing touch the rim. Get your defensive center then. Oh wait, we didn't even try him out. Oops.

If I wanted a "mature Pf" then all I had to do is resign Al. He's a better overall player than SW, BTW.

I don't mind your 1st option, your 2nd is ridiculous, and there is a 3rd as I have mentioned.

W

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Let go back to reality here for a moment. Sene would not have been a good draft choice because we do have a C and would not have had a PF... Plus we don't have time for projects.

For everything you can say about Sene, the truth is that he's still a PROJECT. We don't have the time to try to nurture a Project. Seattle took him because Seattle has 2 Centers on their roster right now who are starter quality. They can nurture a Project. We can't afford to go into the project nurturing business while we have holes at Pf and PG.

Why play people out of position when you don't have to?

The second part to this is that you don't know how good Shelden or Sene will be...Neither of them has seen real action... Just something to argue about right?