Josh Smith: I've got a lot to prove

[Diesel]

You said that teams build around Sfs all the time, however, how many championship teams are built around the Sf??

Hell, you can build around whatever you want...

You can build around the third guy off the bench if you like...

However, we're not talking about can it be done... Certainly, it can be done.

We were talking about can it win.

I said unless you're talking about a guy with the skills of Bird and Dr. J.. then you're foolish..

I stand by that statement.

You immediately mentioned Lebron and Melo.

To which I pointed out that Marvin is not on that level.

Had I known that you were trying to dispute my first statement, I would have asked..

When Have Lebron James not been on the level of Dr. J. and Larry Bird? Isn't he supposed to be the present and future of the game?

Moreover, knowing what I know now... I would take Wade over James... IF i had Smoove!

[Peoriabird]

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You said that teams build around Sfs all the time, however, how many championship teams are built around the Sf??

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I think that teams are built around superstars reguardless of their position

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When Have Lebron James not been on the level of Dr. J. and Larry Bird? Isn't he supposed to be the present and future of the game?

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Little too early to compare a 4th year player to two of the 10 best players ever. Just my opinion

[Diesel]

You can't have it both ways.. Perioa.

James can't be too great to pass up on one hand but not on the same level as other greats on the other...

Moreover, you say that championship teams are built on superstars... I think Detroit may have something to say about that one...however...

Let's go with that... sure, Championship teams are built on superstars... However, less Superstars at the Sf position take their teams to championships compared to every other position.

In 30 years, only 2 guys were able to carry their teams to a championship playing out of the Sf position. I think if you examine the numbers, you will find that PGs and Centers carry their teams far more easily than a Sf.

With all his greatness, didn't you notice that Nique couldn't carry the Hawks to a championship? In the grand scheme of things, a great Sf is not comparison for a great PG or a Great C.

[AHF]

Not to encourage anything here, but the Sixers team that won the 83 championship was based more around MVP Moses Malone than aging but still very good Dr. J. For whatever it is worth.

[Diesel]

Definitely true...

I was talking mainly about the 1980, 1981, 1982 sixers who were led by Doc.

Those guys were very good and Doc carried them to the finals 2 of those three years. I think that 1983 squad may be the best in history.

I would like to see a playoff with them, the Lakers of 1980, the Bulls of 1992, the Celtics of 1986, the Bad Boys, and the Bulls of 1996... then let's see who had the best team ever.

[Packfill]

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That is not a good comparison. Both Lebron and Carmelo would have been drafted before Bogut/Marvin/Paul/etc. if they were in the same draft. Both were truly exceptional talents - franchise altering talents. Marvin and Paul are good talents, but not on the level of Lebron and Carmelo. What that means is that absent a franchise level talent head and shoulders above the rest, a strong argument can be made to pick the guy who most fills a need since the ceiling on all the available prospects is similar.

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Who knows how good Marvin will be 2 years from now. I was just disputing the notion that it is ridiculous to build around a Small forward when teams do it all of the time.

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I never said that teams do not build around small forwards - just that historically championship teams are not built around small forwards.

[Peoriabird]

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Let's go with that... sure, Championship teams are built on superstars... However, less Superstars at the Sf position take their teams to championships compared to every other position.

In 30 years, only 2 guys were able to carry their teams to a championship playing out of the Sf position. I think if you examine the numbers, you will find that PGs and Centers carry their teams far more easily than a Sf.

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There may be a plausable explanation for the historical discrepancy. 1st of all, cetainly the rules have change in the league to benefit the perimeter player that can shoot. Secondly, There has been evolution of the 6'8" player. Before the 6'8" player was likely a power inside player with limited perimeter skills. Now you have a lot of 3s that can handle the ball like Jordan did as a 2. So 2s and 3s are almost interchageable. So maybe the future thrend will be to see more 2/3 type players carrying their teams to championships rather than 1s or 5s. Personally, I don't see a dominant 5 other than a rapidly deteriorating Shaq who may have been carried by a 2 anyway last season or a dominant 1 other than Nash carrying their team to a championship any time soon. By the way, Billups is a 2 playing the 1

[Popeye]

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I just got done playing NBA2k7 on the XBOX 360 and the announcers said many around the league felt the Hawks should have drafted Chris Paul over Marvin Williams this is in a freaking video game.

enuff said

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hahaha

Did they also say that Marvin will be a special player?

I can't believe you are using video game announcers to prove your point.

I will just laugh at this one.

[SmooveTheFuture]

I wasnt trying to prove my point by mentioning the video game but I find it hilarious that even in a video game they are saying the Hawks made a mistake thats wat I find funny about all this. You know its sad when you have to hear it all day from the Media and people around the league but when you hear it in a video game thats jsut too much. Like I have always said Marvin Williams has to prove he was worth the number 2 pick because the player who we passed on is gonna be an NBA great at the point guard position. Already has improved his team and IMO are going to the playoffs this year. The Point guard spot being one of the hardest positions to master and we had 3 good ones right in front of us. This is tough to swallow knowing we had a grand canyon like hole we had to fill at PG and we took yet another SF which is pretty much a slap to the face of Childress/Smith/Diaw saying ok we like you but you arent good enough so we will draft another SF. Just a terrible pick and I will stand by that until I see he was worth the pick. In reality its all about winning and building aw inning franchise with Chris Paul here we would be 10x closer then we are now and thats where my agrument comes in.

[Diesel]

Again....

You try to use the SG position as a position that takes their team to the championship. However, aside from Jordan and Reggie Miller, there were no other 2s who dominated the game well enough to take their team to the championships. The problem is that at both the 2 and 3 position, you can be shut down without significantly helping your team. If Ray Allen gets shut down on offense, that's it for Seattle. For as great a player as Ray is, he cannot muscle his team to the finals. The same goes for Tmac and even Kobe. However, at the PG spot, if you have a dominant PG like Isiah was or like Kidd was, those guys don't have to be on to make their team better. Or if you got a guy like Shaq or Hakeem who dominates the game to the point that everybody around him is made better by open looks... that's championship play.

Marvin doesn't have enough compacity to his game now or to his potential game to be a championship calibre player. He will still need a dominant C or PG.

[Johnnybravo4]

I may be mistaken but wasn't Larry Bird a 3? Or were the celtics built around Robert Parish?

[Diesel]

Previously in the thread I paid much homage to Bird and Dr. J...

But thanks for the late warning... Only 90% of the town would have been lost if you were on the watch!

[Peoriabird]

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Marvin doesn't have enough compacity to his game now or to his potential game to be a championship calibre player. He will still need a dominant C or PG.

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All of what you said makes sense but do you really think that Chris Paul will be that dominant point guard? And do you really think that he has a better chance to win a championship than Marvin?

[Johnnybravo4]

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Previously in the thread I paid much homage to Bird and Dr. J...

But thanks for the late warning... Only 90% of the town would have been lost if you were on the watch!

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Ok well your premise is garbage if half of the NBA championships were won by teams built around 2's and 3's.

[Buzzard]

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Realism is that Marvin has a lot to prove. We gave up the opp to have Paul as well as Harrington for Marvin. Therefore, there must be expectations for Marvin.

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We gave up Paul to take Marvin. Is this still a news flash for you? No, just same old song and dance...

As far as Harrington and Boris goes, we gave them up due to many reasons. Not the least of which is they did not want to be here. Secondly, we have Chilz, Smoove, MWill, and Sheldon. Exactly how many Forwards do you want?

Do you think we gave up Boris two years ago so we could play Chilz and Smoove? Furthermore, do you think we gave up Harrington so we could draft Shelden? By your logic both statements could be true.

Both Boris and Harrington wanted to move on to greener pastures and you just cannot accept this fact. We did well getting JJ and at least a late round 1st for two players that did not want to play for a rebuilding team.

Deal with it Diesel...

[Guest Walter]

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PF's that Josh is currently as big as or bigger than

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Alan Henderson

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Who the hell cares about Alan Henderson?

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Antawn Jamison

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Has played Pf his whole life, wants to be a Pf, has mostly Pf skills. Any questions?

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Lamar Odom

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Taller than Josh Smith. JS doesn't outweigh him. A totally different type player.

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Kenyon Martin

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A Jason Kidd special. Played the post his whole life. Is he even a top 30 Pf?

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Udonis Haslem

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Played the post his whole life (starting to see a trend?). A good role player alongside a giant center (Hmm? Are you suggesting we need one of those?).

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Boris Diaw

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We had him and traded him. He's only PLAYS Pf as a gimmick and out of dire need. Next.

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Chris Bosh

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Much taller, much longer, played the post his whole life. Any questions?

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Al Harrington

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Even under management's fantasy 15 lbs for Josh Smith every offseason Harrington outweighs JS. Where in hell are you getting your "statistics"? Your arse?

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Carlos Boozer

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Weighs at least 30 lbs more than JS and knows how to use it having played the post since his conception (not birth).

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Reef

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Weighs more than Josh and has always played and wanted to play the post. Has more post moves in his finger nail crud than Josh has everywhere.

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Charlie V

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Where on earth are you getting your statistics from? Josh is not "bigger" than Villy.

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Radmonovic

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Radman is taller but he isn't a Pf either.

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Shelden Williams

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Outweighs Josh by 30. Please.

That doesn't mean Josh Smith can't play AT Pf but he is NOT a Pf. You MUST get the right center with him to justify it!

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I could probably name dozens more. Granted half of these on the list are an inch taller than Josh, but are we going to parse positions over whether someone is 6'9 or 6'10?

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Yes, you do parse when ALL of them but Diaw were previously Pfs at some level.

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You may argue that Josh has a SF skillset, but so does KG, Dirk and Jermaine O'neal.

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Who all are more talented overall, tower over Josh like trees, are bigger than he, and/or want to play the post.

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You may argue physicality, but I don't think any of us would characterize Josh as being a finesse player.

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He's not finesse as a Sf. He would be as a Pf.

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You may argue that his game is perimeter oriented. But I would counter that that was just a product of Al Harrington being seen as the main post threat. And besides, isn't that basically what Sheed and Jamison game is?

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And I would argue that you are wrong, that Harrington is not what we are hoping for out of JS anyhow, and that Sheed and Jamison have been Pfs/Cs all their lives, have a multitude of post moves, and in Sheed's case is one off the top 5 post defenders in the game.

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I think that we should all view Josh in a a new light. He is a PF who has the skill set of a SF period.

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I think you should end that statement with "...please?" We all would like to believe it but it ain't true.

W

[Diesel]

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All of what you said makes sense but do you really think that Chris Paul will be that dominant point guard? And do you really think that he has a better chance to win a championship than Marvin?

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I just look at the work that Paul has done already. He took a team like NO with nothing really worth talking about and almost got them into the playoffs in the West. Man by man, we are far more talented than N.O.... But Paul made them winners.

Paul won ROY in his rookie Year and he dominated the game like a 10 year vet. Paul was the starter for team USA after only one year playing in the NBA.

I think those are might good accomplishments for a guy who is just a rookie.

Tell, the truth if Marvin had averaged 18 ppg, 8 rpg and nearly got us to the playoffs, you guys who hug his nuts now would never cease talking about his greatness...

[Diesel]

I like how you totally ignored what I said...

I said that because of all we have done, we should have high expectations of Marvin.

I love how you make it about me... or about what we have done...

Buzzard, you can't go back in time and change what has been done or even try to change why we did it...

DEAL WITH THAT.

You can only look at what's left.

What's left is Marvin who should have high expectations placed on him.

Unfortunately, I doubt that the Marvin Nuthugging Alliance will ever have any expectations on him other than he plays.

[Johnnybravo4]

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PF's that Josh is currently as big as or bigger than

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Alan Henderson

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Who the hell cares about Alan Henderson?

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Antawn Jamison

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Has played Pf his whole life, wants to be a Pf, has mostly Pf skills. Any questions?

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Lamar Odom

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Taller than Josh Smith. JS doesn't outweigh him. A totally different type player.

Josh Smith is 245, Lamar Odom is 230

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Kenyon Martin

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A Jason Kidd special. Played the post his whole life. Is he even a top 30 Pf?

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Udonis Haslem

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Played the post his whole life (starting to see a trend?). A good role player alongside a giant center (Hmm? Are you suggesting we need one of those?).

Still doesn't refute the fact that he is 6'8 230

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Boris Diaw

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We had him and traded him. He's only PLAYS Pf as a gimmick and out of dire need. Next.

Still doesn't refute my point.

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Chris Bosh

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Much taller, much longer, played the post his whole life. Any questions?

Bosh 6'10 230, Josh 6'9 245. I don't know what math you are using to say that he is much taller. If you want to know how long an inch is..look down in the shower.

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Al Harrington

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Even under management's fantasy 15 lbs for Josh Smith every offseason Harrington outweighs JS. Where in hell are you getting your "statistics"? Your arse?

Those fantasy 15 may be true considering he came into the league at about 215 lbs. 215 + 30 = 245.

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Carlos Boozer

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Weighs at least 30 lbs more than JS and knows how to use it having played the post since his conception (not birth).

Boozer is 266 lbs 21 lbs bigger

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Reef

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Weighs more than Josh and has always played and wanted to play the post. Has more post moves in his finger nail crud than Josh has everywhere.

Check your stats, Reef and Smoove are the exact same size

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Charlie V

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Where on earth are you getting your statistics from? Josh is not "bigger" than Villy.

Note I said bigger or as big as. Reading is Fundamental.

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Radmonovic

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Radman is taller but he isn't a Pf either.

He is one inch taller and 10 lbs lighter.

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Shelden Williams

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Outweighs Josh by 30. Please.

Shelden is listed as 250...it think that would make him 5 lbs heavier and not 30.

That doesn't mean Josh Smith can't play AT Pf but he is NOT a Pf. You MUST get the right center with him to justify it!

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I could probably name dozens more. Granted half of these on the list are an inch taller than Josh, but are we going to parse positions over whether someone is 6'9 or 6'10?

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Yes, you do parse when ALL of them but Diaw were previously Pfs at some level.

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You may argue that Josh has a SF skillset, but so does KG, Dirk and Jermaine O'neal.

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Who all are more talented overall, tower over Josh like trees, are bigger than he, and/or want to play the post.

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You may argue physicality, but I don't think any of us would characterize Josh as being a finesse player.

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He's not finesse as a Sf. He would be as a Pf.

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You may argue that his game is perimeter oriented. But I would counter that that was just a product of Al Harrington being seen as the main post threat. And besides, isn't that basically what Sheed and Jamison game is?

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And I would argue that you are wrong, that Harrington is not what we are hoping for out of JS anyhow, and that Sheed and Jamison have been Pfs/Cs all their lives, have a multitude of post moves, and in Sheed's case is one off the top 5 post defenders in the game.

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I think that we should all view Josh in a a new light. He is a PF who has the skill set of a SF period.

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I think you should end that statement with "...please?" We all would like to believe it but it ain't true.

W

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So basically your argument is that he can't be a PF like the players above because he didn't play in the post in his lonng H.S. and AAU history. (Which wouldn't be true anyway)

Your argument just doesn't hold any water. And if you had your head out of your azz, then last year you would have seen that Josh played significant minutes in the post, and showed off a couple of improved post moves, including a lefty hook.

Come on man, if you are going to challenge my theory you have to come stronger than that...I iz edumicated.

[Diesel]

Josh Lacks the skillset of a PF... Period. You can make up what you like, but anybody who watched him play knows that he doesn't play post defense well, doesn't play post offense so well either. Putting Smoove in the post is limiting him greatly. Moreover, it seems like he doesn't want to be a PF. Why else would somebody work so hard on his dribbling skills and his shooting from 3 point range and not work on his post defense or post up game.