do you think Shelden is short?

[gsuteke]

2006 combine measurements

this information is fascinating. Shellhead has 3 or 4 people in the draft with a longer wingspan.

Sene has him by 4 inches. everybody thinks Sene is some huge giant. Shelden matches up favorably considering the stereotypes surrounding them both on this forum. Shelden vs Aldridge? half an inch. Shelden vs O'Bryant? an inch. what do Sene and O'Bryant have in common? you guessed it, they're Centers while Shelden is a PF.

don't think wingspan is important? Shellhead also matches up favorably in shoes to all of the PF prospects in this draft. in short , he's not short.

also take into consideration he benched 185 26 times while Sene and Aldridge couldn't get it up more than 7 and 8 times. this is where my theory that Shelden will break them in half originated.

to make a long story short i think some of you are overreacting.

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[Guest Walter]

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this is where my theory that Shelden will break them in half originated.

to make a

long

story

short

i think some of you are overreacting.

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Whatever the reason, Sene, a 20 yr old, inexperienced, raw player, double out-blocked SW in summerleague.

Look at the standing reach comparisons. SW's got dwarfed. He is wide, granted, but it doesn't reflect in standing reach, meaning he is both short and rigid(?). And yes, 4" does mean something, but if I recall it correctly Sene has at least a 9'2" standing reach wheras SW's standing reach is 8' 8" or a 6" standing reach difference.

[gsuteke]

where is your link?

[gsuteke]

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this is where my theory that Shelden will break them in half originated.

to make a

long

story

short

i think some of you are overreacting.

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Whatever the reason, Sene, a 20 yr old, inexperienced, raw player, double out-blocked SW in summerleague.

Look at the standing reach comparisons. SW's got dwarfed. He is wide, granted, but it doesn't reflect in standing reach, meaning he is both short and rigid(?). And yes, 4" does mean something, but if I recall it correctly Sene has at least a 9'2" standing reach wheras SW's standing reach is 8' 8" or a 6" standing reach difference.

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Sene is only 2 years younger than Shelden. Walter you portray this sometimes like we chose Homer over Bart Simpson.

there is alot more to defense than blocking shots. 90% of defense is positioning IMO.

let's say for argument's sake that Sene's standing reach is 9 inches longer than Shelden. how will that translate when Sene is guarding Shelden in the post? i remember Shawn Bradley blocking some shots, however i also remember he got abused regularly.

the point is Walter there was no Center available in this year's draft. Billy got a solid player who can hold his own against Centers and abuse PFs out of the same draft class.

[Guest Walter]

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where is your link?

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http://www.nbadraft.net/2006campmeasurements001.asp

Sene has a 9'5" standing reach (only Aldridge within 3") to SW 8'8" standing reach. That's 9". Almost a basketball.

And still, I wonder with all your bluster GSUteke, you won't take my shot-block challenge. I've offered you 10 MPG stating Sene will get as many BPG as SW even if he plays 10 MPG less. I then stated that as long as both play at least 10-15 (negotiable) MPG to allow for a sample per48 he would double SW's per48 BPG. How much more must I handicap Sene? Make him play on one leg? What?

If 9" isn't much to you...

W

[gsuteke]

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where is your link?

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http://www.nbadraft.net/2006campmeasurements001.asp

Sene has a 9'5" standing reach (only Aldridge within 3") to SW 8'8" standing reach. That's 9". Almost a basketball.

And still, I wonder with all your bluster GSUteke, you won't take my shot-block challenge. I've offered you 10 MPG stating Sene will get as many BPG as SW even if he plays 10 MPG less. I then stated that as long as both play at least 10-15 (negotiable) MPG to allow for a sample per48 he would double SW's per48 BPG. How much more must I handicap Sene? Make him play on one leg? What?

If 9" isn't much to you...

W

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i already beat you to the punch on the blocks Walter. you answer my question first.

while you're at it answer another one. would you like Sam Dalembert on our team? y or n

[Guest Walter]

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Sene is only 2 years younger than Shelden. Walter you portray this sometimes like we chose Homer over Bart Simpson.

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http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/saersene.html

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(Sene) Only began playing basketball in 2003 so he's still learning the game

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Doh!

SW has 10 years of basketball experience on him but won't be better than Sene will defensively.

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there is alot more to defense than blocking shots. 90% of defense is positioning IMO.

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And Sene is good at positioning already also. His best positioning, however, is the fact that he doesn't sit on JS or MW.

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let's say for argument's sake that Sene's standing reach is 9 inches longer than Shelden.

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Looks like you checked the facts yourself and are even a bit suprised.

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how will that translate when Sene is guarding Shelden in the post?

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Sene will own him like he does just about everyone. He will change if not block just about everything that SWs attempts. With Sene's 9" reach advantage, athleticism, and inate shot blocking instincts he can let his man "beat him" and still so change his shot he can't make it or outright block him. It's like you never watched any footage of this guy, but talk out of your ass about him.

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i remember Shawn Bradley blocking some shots, however i also remember he got abused regularly.

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I refer to the talking out of your ass part above. Can you think of a worse comparison than the 190 lb wet Shawn Bradley?

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the point is Walter there was no Center available in this year's draft. Billy got a solid player who can hold his own against Centers and abuse PFs out of the same draft class.

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You just spent a whole post talking about a center you insist "wasn't available". Was that some kind of argumentation "magic trick". "See the center I'm talking about...no you don't. Gotcha." What a weak attempt at whatever.

All bluster, no spine.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ Walter . . and his Sene fantasies.

Sene may very well block .2 more shots than Shelden. But can he defend in the post better than Shelden? That's the ultimate factor in how effective each guy is.

It's been very well documented on this board about Josh Smith's defensive prowess. Just because he blocks a lot of shots, doesn't make him a great defender. In fact, when it comes to guarding his man one on one, Josh is a very average defender. But he's a great weakside defender.

Charles Oakley never blocked many shots. But he sure could lock you down on the block and keep you under your average.

If Sene is as good as Walter believes, then he should be the undisputed starter in Seattle, playing 28 - 32 minutes a game. If he's that good of a defender, you don't suppress that.

LOL @ Dalembert. A PERFECT example of a guy who can block shots, but is weak defensively man to man, and doesn't dominate the boards. That's why Philly fans are already disgusted at him.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

With Shelden, the question is going to be . . . how BIG does he play?

Does he play like a 6 - 5 PF that tries too hard?

Does he play like a 6 - 8 PF?

Does he play like a 6 - 11 PF?

We won't know the answer to that until the season starts.

Two contrasts in looking at Shelden against other PFs.

- He pretty much handled LaMarcus Aldridge when Duke played Texas last year. Mind you that LaMarcus is 3 inches taller than Shelden. But the knock on LaMarcus is that he plays weak. He's 6 - 11, but plays more like he's 6 - 6 at times. That's the main reason why the kid wasn't the consensus #1 pick.

- On the flip side, Shelden had MAJOR PROBLEMS when trying to contain Marco Killingsworth of Indiana. Killingsworth took Shelden inside and outside and used his quickness very effectively. He was literally unstoppable. Now granted, Marco couldn't do anything with Shelden either and Duke did win the game. But Killingsworth wasn't scared at all of Shelden, and took it right to him.

By the way, Marco is a shade under 6 - 7. And that's the main reason why Marco wasn't a lottery pick. That, and his defense is HORRIBLE. But he plays like he's 6 - 10 . . when his shot is falling.

[Guest Walter]

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while you're at it answer another one. would you like Sam Dalembert on our team? y or n

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Sammy was a 27tth overall pick. We're talking lottery talent despite only starting basketball 3 years ago vs. almost 2nd rder (terrible for anyone 6'11") talent.

You pick comparisons out of your ass. First Shawn Bradley WTF? then Dalembert.

I would be interested in the standing reach comparison should you be able to find it. Regardless, Sammy has the basketball IQ of a grapefruit. This is another ridiculous comparison.

[vdunkndunk]

I was really excited about Shelden when I found out about his wingspan, but then I read about his standing reach. He must have some really wide shoulders or something, because his standing reach isn't nearly as good as you'd think you when you look at his height and wingspan. And after watching 2 games of the summer league I'm really apprehensive about him, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Guest Walter]

center prospects in Seattle we know Sene won't get 28-32 MPG. But if you can come up with an objective defensive measuring stick for post players per minute that compares the two I'd be happy.

In fact I have one in mind. Defensive TENDEX per48 at Doug's stat site. I'll accept any that you decide upon. The issue isn't this year regardless as it's about who will be a better player 3 years from now and on, but I'll accept the comparison for this year. Choose your derringer.

Sene is alot closer to Mutombo than Dalembert (a near 2nd rd selection and B ball IQ idiot). I stand by it, but everybody who disagrees is afraid to objectively challenge me. Why I wonder.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I was really excited about Shelden when I found out about his wingspan, but then I read about his standing reach. He must have some really wide shoulders or something, because his standing reach isn't nearly as good as you'd think you when you look at his height and wingspan. And after watching 2 games of the summer league I'm really apprehensive about him, but we'll just have to wait and see.

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We should be VERY apprehensive about SW. A guy with 3 years basketball experience owns a 4-yr college defender of the year (eye roll) defensively in summerleague. NOT good.

W

[Guest Walter]

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2006 combine measurements

this information is fascinating. Shellhead has 3 or 4 people in the draft with a longer wingspan.

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http://www.nbadraft.net/2006campmeasurements001.asp

That's 33rd out of 81 prospects at all positions. If you assume that Pgs, Sgs, and Sfs at least make up 3/5ths of the prospects and shouldn't have a longer standing reach than SW, that's (80/5=16, 16x3=48, 81-48=33) 33 players projected as Pfs or Cs and somehow SW has a standing reach that is 33rd best amongst these guys!?!

Bad.

W

[Popeye]

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The issue isn't this year regardless as it's about

who will be a better player 3 years from now and on

, but I'll accept the comparison for this year.

W

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Why wouldn't you wait for Marvin than, but you judge him in his rookie year at only 19.

Walter why are you defending other teams players and talk BS about ours?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Walter, post that website so I can take a look at it.

But if Sene is only getting 10 - 15 minutes a game, something is SERIOUSLY WRONG. Why bench a shot blocker that can change the game like that? You find ways for a guy like that to be on the court, regardless of what marginal player you have playing in front of him.

Sene is a lot closer to Mutumbo than Dalembert? Really? Mutumbo did have some offensive game to go along with his defense. Does Sens possess some offensive game to go along with his "great" defense? Can Sene score 10 points on the NBA level on any given night?

2 summers ago, people on this board were all for giving Dalembert a HUGE contract just because he had a bad need at center. That would've been the biggest mistake the Hawks would've made, since trading Steve Smith for JR Rider.

The vast majority of big men who are prospects in this league, never reach their potential. And yet, teams still take a chance on them, because the league is so starved for quality big men. Especially defensive ones.

I mean, who is/was the better prospect? Sene or the lanky athletic shot blocker formerly named Keon Clark?

But I guess that's another bad comparison.

Yet, you want to compare Sene to one of the game's all time defensive big men in Dik? LOL.

[Guest Walter]

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Why wouldn't you wait for Marvin than, but you judge him in his rookie year at only 19.

Walter why are you defending other teams players and talk BS about ours?

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I read MW's HS history and watched him at least 12 games at UNC (I live in NC.). My criticism of the pick has been about team needs (or lack thereof in his case) and the fact that he was no more talented than the Pg prospects available. I've even consistently made the argument to keep him and run a 2 starting Sf lineup I-F you can get the right center for him. I am judging him, but we all should judge everybody, just not finally. I jusge him to be a good prospect that only fits the team if JS is traded (unfortunately likely not for his worth) or if we get the right type center with enough talent (hard to find, passed over several times already, and increasingly harder to acquire for us).

I call players as I see'um and I'm blunt about it. I'm not always right, but there isn't any bias here. If you think SW is a better player than Roy or Foye period, SW can play C alongside JS more than Roy or Foye can play Pg next to JJ, or that even SW is a better potential defensive phenom than Sene (especially in 3 years when it matters) you are mistaken.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Walter, post that website so I can take a look at it.

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http://www.dougstats.com/05-06MainTendexPage.html

Go to "defensive...". Unfortunately, only top 10 at a position are listed. Interesting Josh Smith was #16 per48, MW was not top 20, ZaZa was 19 for centers, JJ wasn't top 20 for SGs, and Speedy was #1 for Pgs. Great to see Speedy up there, but retty scary when only 1 of our players is top 15 at their respective position in terms of D statistically no matter how you measure it. Anyhow...

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But if Sene is only getting 10 - 15 minutes a game, something is SERIOUSLY WRONG. Why bench a shot blocker that can change the game like that?

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I don't think it will last too long in Seattle as Sene has already gone from NBDL certainty to rotational player in one summer, but they HAVE to play Robert Swift and Petro and Sene has only played 3 years of basketball. You name the last NBA player to play that little basketball.

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You find ways for a guy like that to be on the court, regardless of what marginal player you have playing in front of him.

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Which is why he'll still get on the court. Just his MPG will reflect his age, inexperience, and the number and at least quality of prospects in front of him. THE SAME MUST BE SAID ABOUT JS, MW, OR SW, RIGHT?!?

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[gsuteke]

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Sene is only 2 years younger than Shelden. Walter you portray this sometimes like we chose Homer over Bart Simpson.

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http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/saersene.html

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(Sene) Only began playing basketball in 2003 so he's still learning the game

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Doh!

SW has 10 years of basketball experience on him but won't be better than Sene will defensively.

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there is alot more to defense than blocking shots. 90% of defense is positioning IMO.

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And Sene is good at positioning already also. His best positioning, however, is the fact that he doesn't sit on JS or MW.

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let's say for argument's sake that Sene's standing reach is 9 inches longer than Shelden.

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Looks like you checked the facts yourself and are even a bit suprised.

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how will that translate when Sene is guarding Shelden in the post?

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Sene will own him like he does just about everyone. He will change if not block just about everything that SWs attempts. With Sene's 9" reach advantage, athleticism, and inate shot blocking instincts he can let his man "beat him" and still so change his shot he can't make it or outright block him. It's like you never watched any footage of this guy, but talk out of your ass about him.

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i remember Shawn Bradley blocking some shots, however i also remember he got abused regularly.

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I refer to the talking out of your ass part above. Can you think of a worse comparison than the 190 lb wet Shawn Bradley?

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the point is Walter there was no Center available in this year's draft. Billy got a solid player who can hold his own against Centers and abuse PFs out of the same draft class.

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You just spent a whole post talking about a center you insist "wasn't available". Was that some kind of argumentation "magic trick". "See the center I'm talking about...no you don't. Gotcha." What a weak attempt at whatever.

All bluster, no spine.

W

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check your facts Walter before you go spewing off anymore nonsense.

Bradley's height/weight

Sene's height/weight

Let's break it down using some mathematics here my friend. Let me see here....... take Bradley's weight at 275 and divide it by his 90 inches of height..... you still with me here big guy? you come up with.... tada 3.05 lbs/inch. man that is tiny even when to quote you... "wet."

Now using the same model let's take Saer Sene's weight at 230 lbs and divide it by his height which comes out to be 83 inches..... holy ish Walter! that's only 2.77 lbs/inch of height.

WOW! Saer Sene is not only 7 inches shorter than Bradley, Shawn looks like a bodybuilder next to this string bean Saer Sene! you are right Walter, the Bradley comparison was unfair. using your logic Sene isn't even in Bradley's class. i'm penning my apology letter to Shawn Bradley right now.

as if I needed it on a side note also take note of the fact Bradley led the NBA in blocked shots with 228 in 2000-20001. he also led the league as the victim of most posterized dunks with 229.

note to Billy Knight: thanks for not using the 5th pick in the draft on an "unpolished" shorter version of Shawn Bradley.

[gsuteke]

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while you're at it answer another one. would you like Sam Dalembert on our team? y or n

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Sammy was a 27tth overall pick. We're talking lottery talent despite only starting basketball 3 years ago vs. almost 2nd rder (terrible for anyone 6'11") talent.

You pick comparisons out of your ass. First Shawn Bradley WTF? then Dalembert.

I would be interested in the standing reach comparison should you be able to find it. Regardless, Sammy has the basketball IQ of a grapefruit. This is another ridiculous comparison.

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i'll start a poll dude. i'm always right.

Dally was 6th in the league this year in blocked shots. why is that relative? because you keep attempting to make out blocked shots and overall defensive ability like they're not mutually exclusive.

prime examples include Dalembert at #6 in the league. Rasheed Wallace whose named is used on this board as a measuring stick at PF defensively, 18th. Dwight Howard was 23rd.

blocked shots are overrated. scoring more points than your opponent is not.

P.S. thanks for falling into the Dally trap. you can continue to talk in circles on this subject if you'd like. i feel like i am viewing the same regurgitated arguments.