do you think Shelden is short?

[Guest Walter]

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Dally was 6th in the league this year in blocked shots. why is that relative? because you keep

attempting

to make out blocked shots and overall defensive ability like they're not mutually exclusive.

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Sene after 3 years of B ball has a greater BBall IQ than Daly now. It's like you've never watched Daly play. It's not his shot blocking that isn't comperable (actually, it isn't, Sene is better, but anyhow), it's the fact that Daly might be the dumbest basketball player out there. And yet you want to make a comparison?

Good shot blocking doesn't make you a great defender, but it does great shotblocking does make you a good defender at the center position. You don't become great without being very good at many other aspects of defense. Daly is a mere "decent-good" shot blocker. He's not great by any stretch and he got the ball IQ of a rock. Sene will be good to great at blocking shots and he's already smarter on the court than Daly. Of course, you would pick the dumbest basketball player in the NBA, just like you compared every white center, and an emaciated african to Sene BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO REAL ARGUMENT AND CONTAIN NO SPINE TO BACK UP YOUR RHETORIC!

I await you growing a spine. Til then toodles.

W

[Guest Walter]

gsuteke...

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blah, blah, blah, blah, blah................................................................

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Back it up by accepting a challenge. You've gone from insisting Sene could never out-block SW to insisting shot-blocking isn't remotely an indication of defense. I've made objective, statistical challenge after challenge and you continually refuse to man up.

You can't "own" anybody you won't face up to.

W

[AHF]

What does it mean to be a great shotblocker?

Among the top 15 shot blockers on a per game basis in NBA history, I see several poor defenders including:

Shawn Bradley

Manute Bol

A couple others who were good but not impact defenders:

George Johnson

Theo Ratliff

Kareem

Expand the range and you get some others including the 25th highest per game blocking average in NBA history:

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/BPG_career.html

[Diesel]

Most people who don't study the game think that blocked shots equate to good defense...

There are many players who won't ever show up on a stat sheet that play excellent defense. Bruce Bowen is probably one of the best technical defensive players ever... but there's no stat to justify it... Shawn Bradley could block 300 shots a year and it still would not have meant that he was a good defender.

[gsuteke]

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Dally was 6th in the league this year in blocked shots. why is that relative? because you keep

attempting

to make out blocked shots and overall defensive ability like they're not mutually exclusive.

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Sene after 3 years of B ball has a greater BBall IQ than Daly now. It's like you've never watched Daly play. It's not his shot blocking that isn't comperable (actually, it isn't, Sene is better, but anyhow), it's the fact that Daly might be the dumbest basketball player out there. And yet you want to make a comparison?

Good shot blocking doesn't make you a great defender, but it does great shotblocking does make you a good defender at the center position. You don't become great without being very good at many other aspects of defense. Daly is a mere "decent-good" shot blocker. He's not great by any stretch and he got the ball IQ of a rock. Sene will be good to great at blocking shots and he's already smarter on the court than Daly. Of course, you would pick the dumbest basketball player in the NBA, just like you compared every white center, and an emaciated african to Sene BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO REAL ARGUMENT AND CONTAIN NO SPINE TO BACK UP YOUR RHETORIC!

I await you growing a spine. Til then toodles.

W

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either Walter is not reading my posts or I am not communicating effectively. which is it?

[AHF]

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Dally was 6th in the league this year in blocked shots. why is that relative? because you keep

attempting

to make out blocked shots and overall defensive ability like they're not mutually exclusive.

---

Sene after 3 years of B ball has a greater BBall IQ than Daly now. It's like you've never watched Daly play. It's not his shot blocking that isn't comperable (actually, it isn't, Sene is better, but anyhow), it's the fact that Daly might be the dumbest basketball player out there. And yet you want to make a comparison?

Good shot blocking doesn't make you a great defender, but it does great shotblocking does make you a good defender at the center position. You don't become great without being very good at many other aspects of defense. Daly is a mere "decent-good" shot blocker. He's not great by any stretch and he got the ball IQ of a rock. Sene will be good to great at blocking shots and he's already smarter on the court than Daly. Of course, you would pick the dumbest basketball player in the NBA, just like you compared every white center, and an emaciated african to Sene BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO REAL ARGUMENT AND CONTAIN NO SPINE TO BACK UP YOUR RHETORIC!

I await you growing a spine. Til then toodles.

W

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either Walter is not reading my posts or I am not communicating effectively. which is it?

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You are communicating on different wave lengths, IMO.

Walter has made a very concrete and specific challenge regarding shotblocking and Shelden/Sene. He wants an answer to that challenge.

You are not responding to the challenge either way but are saying that the challenge itself is irrelevant since shotblocking does not equate to a good basketball player or a good defender. Walter is arguing that great shotblockers are always good defenders but that good shotblockers are not always good defenders.

Then you are having an argument over a third issue which is whether or not Sene is comparable to Dalembert (you both agree he is not a good defender). Walter says that Dalembert is a red herring since he is not a great shotblocker and is not comparable to Sene. You are intimating that Sene may be a good shotblocker like Dalembert but that doesn't mean he will be a good player or good defender (and this dovetails back into why you aren't answering the challenge because it doesn't prove who the better player or defender is when Dalembert would win the challenge easily over Oakley, etc.).

[gsuteke]

well that's a relief.

and yes, i keep ignoring that silly bet because it is irrelevant.

So AHF, what do you think?

[Guest Walter]

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...why you aren't answering the challenge because it doesn't prove who the better player or defender is when Dalembert would win the challenge easily over Oakley, etc.).

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This is gsuteke starting the challenge but failing to follow through in post # 167861.

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

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He actually started the challenge, highlighted shot blocking. He made a HUGE deal about it and then when I offered opportunity after opportunity, even giving SW 10 MPG advantage, he tucked tail. Now he's abandoned his initial argument for a more general defensive one. That's a red herring from the original discussion (which wasn't about overall defense, just shot blocking).

Then GSUteke insisted that SW plays taller than he is. WHAT A FARCE! I highlighted the 9" standing reach difference and the "high forehead is wasted height" true height index which has SW SHRINKING.

I have made an equal claim regarding total defense comparing Sene and SW. I stated if anyone had a good overall defensive statistic and believed SW better, bring it on. (crickets) I don't know if Sene will be better overall his 1st year but by his 3rd SW won't even be in the discussion.

AHF, you are a good logician but I don't think a very thurough or fair one in this instance. Much left out.

W

[Guest Walter]

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...why you aren't answering the challenge because it doesn't prove who the better player or defender is when Dalembert would win the challenge easily over Oakley, etc.).

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This is gsuteke starting the challenge but failing to follow through in post # 167861.

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really?

Saer Sene will block more shots than Shelden Williams in 2006-2007?

Go ahead and go on record here Walter.

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He actually started the challenge, highlighted shot blocking. He made a HUGE deal about it and then when I offered opportunity after opportunity, even giving SW 10 MPG advantage, he tucked tail. Now he's abandoned his initial argument for a more general defensive one. That's a red herring from the original discussion (which wasn't about overall defense, just shot blocking).

Then GSUteke insisted that SW plays taller than he is. WHAT A FARCE! I highlighted the 9" standing reach difference and the "high forehead is wasted height" true height index which has SW SHRINKING.

I have made an equal claim regarding total defense comparing Sene and SW. I stated if anyone had a good overall defensive statistic and believed SW better, bring it on. (crickets) I don't know if Sene will be better overall his 1st year but by his 3rd SW won't even be in the discussion.

This doesn't even go into the fact that Sene doesn't BENCH ouyr best players! SW needs to be an All-star to justify benching MW or JS.

AHF, you are a good logician but I don't think a very thurough or fair one in this instance. Much left out.

W

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[AtLaS]

lol Walter you act as if everything you say is fact.. Just like Chris Paul was too short, now Shelden is. I don't think I've ever seen a positive post by you. Its funny that you say Dalembert isn't a smart player (which I agree with) when comparing him to Sene, when you have NEVER seen Sene play a real game, all you've seen is highlights. If you've seen a summer league game of him (which I doubt), do NOT base your opinion on that. Summer league is what it is and nothing else.

I don't completely agree with the Shelden pick either, but saying he's gonna be too short to play PF is rediculous. Strength has as much to do with post play as height does, ESPECIALLY on defense.

[frosgrim]

I agree hight has something to do with the ability to play PF but it isn't the whole bag of chips.

Rodman

Oakly

Barkley

Hasleem

AC Green

All were around 6'9" or shorter (Barkley is reported to be 6'6"!!). Its desire, strength, timing, and positioning that make a good defensive PF. Lets give Shellhead a year or two before we make any decision, just like any other rookie.

Making statements that someone is bound to fail right off the bat is foolish. Also, saying a player is going to be great after their first season is equally foolish. There are plenty of things that can change and players hit their cieling at different times. Power players especially can take until they are 28 to completely hit their stride in the NBA.

For me, I will with hold my judgements on any of this or last years draft until next year.

[AtLaS]

I agree, I think you misread my post, thats the point I was making.

[Packfill]

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I agree hight has something to do with the ability to play PF but it isn't the whole bag of chips.

Rodman

Oakly

Barkley

Hasleem

AC Green

All were around 6'9" or shorter (Barkley is reported to be 6'6"!!). Its desire, strength, timing, and positioning that make a good defensive PF. Lets give Shellhead a year or two before we make any decision, just like any other rookie.

Making statements that someone is bound to fail right off the bat is foolish. Also, saying a player is going to be great after their first season is equally foolish. There are plenty of things that can change and players hit their cieling at different times. Power players especially can take until they are 28 to completely hit their stride in the NBA.

For me, I will with hold my judgements on any of this or last years draft until next year.

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Barkley was listed as 6'6", but was reportedly 6'4.5"! What made him good as a rebounder however was the fact that he could get off the floor quicker then the other big guys around him, so he negated some of the height disadvantage.

The most common trait with undersized power forwards who succeed in the NBA is an unrelentless approach to rebounding - these guys just outwork their opponent. Sheldon appears to have more natural skill then guys like Reggie Evans, Udonis Haslem, Buck Williams and Danny Fortson, so he certaintly has a shot at succeeding, he just needs to work very hard at it. Sheldon does not seem to have the raw athleticism of guys like Rodman, Barkley and AC Green.

[frosgrim]

Sorry about that, I think I was more aiming at the top of the thread. Glad we agree!

[Guest Walter]

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but saying he's gonna be too short to play PF is rediculous. Strength has as much to do with post play as height does, ESPECIALLY on defense.

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Simply too short to be an impact Pf or play any center for us. SW is the highest drafted short, short reach, role playing BU quality Pf I know.

My comments about Paul were in relation to Bogut regarding who was the #1 pick. Simply, I would have picked just about any of the 3 Pgs over MW given we had Diaw, JS, and Childress at the 3.

W

[Guest Walter]

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but saying he's gonna be too short to play PF is rediculous. Strength has as much to do with post play as height does, ESPECIALLY on defense.

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Simply too short to be an impact Pf or play any center for us. SW is the highest drafted short, short reach, role playing BU quality Pf I know. And he benches on of our two best prospects. Not good use of a 5th pick under any circumstances.

My comments about Paul were in relation to Bogut regarding who was the #1 pick. Simply, I would have picked at least 2 of the 3 Pgs over MW (prefered Deron over Paul but both over MW) given we had Diaw, JS, and Childress at the 3.

W

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[AHF]

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but saying he's gonna be too short to play PF is rediculous. Strength has as much to do with post play as height does, ESPECIALLY on defense.

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Simply too short to be an impact Pf or play any center for us. SW is the highest drafted short, short reach, role playing BU quality Pf I know. And he benches on of our two best prospects. Not good use of a 5th pick under any circumstances.

My comments about Paul were in relation to Bogut regarding who was the #1 pick. Simply, I would have picked at least 2 of the 3 Pgs over MW (prefered Deron over Paul but both over MW) given we had Diaw, JS, and Childress at the 3.

W

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How come you keep quoting your own posts?

* * * *

On the previous post, I focused on GSU's position more than yours because I was trying to frame it to his perspective. I still think you guys are discussing different issues at this point. Despite the origins of the shotblocking challenge (and I think it is a very reasonable one), GSU is not focused on that because he is arguing it is not indicative of good defense. If you want to use some sort of PER against, etc. statistical measure for defense I think you probably need to re-raise that with an explanation as to why that does demonstrate defensive prowess.

[Guest Walter]

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How come you keep quoting your own posts?

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Meant to edit it.

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On the previous post, I focused on GSU's position more than yours because I was trying to frame it to his perspective.

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It would have been more accurate to state that at the time.

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I still think you guys are discussing different issues at this point.

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Only after gsuteke changed his point did the discussion change from shot-blocking to overall defense. He initially was insistant that SW wasn't as a good a shotblocker, thus the origin of the discussion. He's now onto a red herring related to the original discussion of shot blocking, after failing to accept any challenge despite my making concession after concession after concession designed to favor SW.

I welcome any objective challenge comparing the two in terms of overall defense (or even impact on team defense when playing/not playing) as well yet still no response or acceptance of a challenge. At some point, one has to quit talking and put up or accept an objective standard for this discussion. Simply by position I have an advantage. Centers are statistically the anchor of a defense more than a Pf.

I'm even willing to come up with our own "system". For interior play BS are important and allude to the generally greater number of altered shots. So that's one category. Another should be rebounding. Steals shouldn't be a category by itself for interior play but should be incorporated say with fewest fouls per minute or some other objective yet minor category for interior defenders. Consider also team defense plus/minus with a player (not objective enough to be the only criteria since the player that replaces the individual in question could be a very good or bad defender in his own right). That gives us 4 per minute categories (shot blocking, overall rebounding, steals/fewest fouls per minute, and overall impact on team in terms of opponent's PPG =/-) to reflect an individual's defense and defensive impact. Any others? If a player wins out clearly in 3 of those and is close in the fourth a clear winner. If a player dominates with regards to 2 and is close with regards to two a winner. Potentially a player could so dominate one, lose three, and still be a winner but hard to imagine that. I'm not sure I like the SP48/fouls per 48 stat grouping so perhaps removing it altogether is appropriate. Maybe then rebounding, shot blocking, and overall PPG impact on team defense (I am expecting this can be found somewhere) should be the primary 3.

I'm definately willing to put up Sene against SW in these 3 categories, giving each equal weight, despite the fact that Sene has played fewer years of basketball than SW's played at Duke and is 3 years younger.

W

[AHF]

I think we are right back at the summary I listed:

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You are communicating on different wave lengths, IMO.

Walter has made a very concrete and specific challenge regarding shotblocking and Shelden/Sene. He wants an answer to that challenge.

You are not responding to the challenge either way but are saying that the challenge itself is irrelevant since shotblocking does not equate to a good basketball player or a good defender. Walter is arguing that great shotblockers are always good defenders but that good shotblockers are not always good defenders.

Then you are having an argument over a third issue which is whether or not Sene is comparable to Dalembert (you both agree he is not a good defender). Walter says that Dalembert is a red herring since he is not a great shotblocker and is not comparable to Sene. You are intimating that Sene may be a good shotblocker like Dalembert but that doesn't mean he will be a good player or good defender (and this dovetails back into why you aren't answering the challenge because it doesn't prove who the better player or defender is when Dalembert would win the challenge easily over Oakley, etc.).

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You want him to accept a challenge that you have now opened up to a wide range of possibilities (which I think is more than fair when you are even offering to include team based numbers, etc.).

He doesn't want the shotblocking challenge but may or may not be interested in some other statistical challenge.

You guys have now dropped the non-dispute over Dalembert who you both agree is a good shotblocker but bad defender due to basketball IQ.

[Guest Walter]

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You want him to accept a challenge that you have now opened up to a wide range of possibilities (which I think is more than fair when you are even offering to include team based numbers, etc.).

He doesn't want the shotblocking challenge but may or may not be interested in some other statistical challenge.

You guys have now dropped the non-dispute over Dalembert who you both agree is a good shotblocker but bad defender due to basketball IQ.

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...with a particular player on the court (per minute)? Also, preferable would be a team's allowed points with a particular player on the court as that would primarily indicate defensive effect.

W