Here is where BK really screwed up...

[TexasPete]

I think it's becoming clear that Salim has so many weaknesses that it's hard to get him on the court. He is a one dimensional shooter who can't defend, can't handle the ball, and has a questionable attitude. On the other hand, Monta Ellis, all 19 years of age, is an excellent all around player who is starting in Golden State. He is averaging almost 16ppg, has a nice handle, high shooting percentage, and plays defense. He would be GREAT in the Hawks guard rotation and can play the 1 or the 2. He is a better player than Lue at 19...his upside is in the All Star game in a few years. I watched him play against the Mavs last night and he was great on the road in the clutch. Again, I will tell you this rebuilding would have been done and we would have been in the playoffs definitely this year if BK had made any one of just a couple different moves. He was said to have strongly considered Monta but took Salim in the end. Bad move. These are the types of moves that make you or break you and BK placed his bet on the wrong horse in this case...again.

[drzachary]

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I think it's becoming clear that Salim has so many weaknesses that it's hard to get him on the court. He is a one dimensional shooter who can't defend, can't handle the ball, and has a questionable attitude. On the other hand, Monta Ellis, all 19 years of age, is an excellent all around player who is starting in Golden State. He is averaging almost 16ppg, has a nice handle, high shooting percentage, and plays defense. He would be GREAT in the Hawks guard rotation and can play the 1 or the 2. He is a better player than Lue at 19...his upside is in the All Star game in a few years. I watched him play against the Mavs last night and he was great on the road in the clutch. Again, I will tell you this rebuilding would have been done and we would have been in the playoffs definitely this year if BK had made any one of just a couple different moves. He was said to have strongly considered Monta but took Salim in the end. Bad move. These are the types of moves that make you or break you and BK placed his bet on the wrong horse in this case...again.

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The Salim pick was hugely lauded at the time, but you have a point. With Salim and Diaw, he definitely proved himself a bad judge of character.

[Diesel]

Well, at the time, he took Salim on the recommendation of Chillz who had faced Salim many times in college. Moreover, Salim was the 3 pt% leader of the NCAA and we needed a three point threat.

I could have rode on the bus with you if you had said he messed up by letting Travis Hansen and Peja walk...

However, Salim was a good push for a 2nd rounder and so was Monta.. However, there was a lot known about Salim. Whereas Monta was a shot in the dark.

[mrhonline]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias

[Final_quest]

That's what I was thinking Mr. H.

I'm no BK apologist, but some people expect him to get the best player on the board with every selection he makes. That's just not realistic. Trust me, if the Hawks play bad this year BK will be gone.

[Diesel]

Where's the hindsight Bias...

I'm saying that I can't penalize BK for taking Salim. At the time it was the right pick to make. There was more known about Salim than about Monta. Monta was just a HS kid that a lot of scouts didn't expect to fair well. Whereas Salim was a player who had played at UA, and had lead the NCAA in 3pt %.

[GoDawgs21]

Hell while we are at it im pretty sure within 99.9% certainty that BK is also responsable for global warming, the war in iraq, raising gas prices, west nile virus, the bird flu, Hurricane Katrina, anything else we want to through on there.

First you are whining about a NBDL player not being picked up and now you are bitching about a 2nd rd pick. Second round picks arent guranteed money for a reason. They are mostly you projects, long shots, and role players. Salim does fill a roll, with him on the court he extends defenses. He doesnt even have to have the ball, and he clears a little bit more up in the lane for others to due his man having to come out and guard him. He have needed that since Smitty left. Beside JJ and Marvin, ok I'll toss in Chillz to a smaller extent, who makes a defender stay out and respect the jumper.

It been three games and it has been noted he has been slowed by that nagging leg injury and he is coming off the shoulder injury as well. Calm down. He is a bit role player at this point. What more do you want from a second round pick. I want you to go through the last 5 drafts, I will bet not even 50% of 2nd rounders are on current NBA rosters, and about 25% even average more then 10 minutes a game.

The Hawks are finally showing signs of turning the corner (I'm the biggest Hawks homer/optimist, but its too early to say playoffs, but I will hope), and yet you are whining like a 5 year old about a NBDL training camp invitee and a 2nd round pick. WTF ?!?!?! I suppose all the other 30 some odd picks before Monta should be admonished too.

I'm going to dub you "Tom Brady Hindsight bitching queen". I suppose all the picks in the 4 plus rounds before Tom Brady were poor picks. If Oak, Tex, NYJ, or Ari, had drafted him instead of the nobody they drafted in the 5th rd they would have a ring too by now uh. Gee wish they all knew that before the draft.

Sometimes players surprise even the people in the know. But you cant tell me that drafting another highschool kid after taking one the year before and a 19yr old in the first round of that draft BK wouldnt have been ransacked by the media and fans. We already had the yougnest team in NBA history, then you want to draft a HS point guard to run it. We needed some guys that have actually played a game against players beside a pimpled 18 year old HS senior. Because HS PGs have such a great track record yep, wait oh only Telfair now in his 3rd year has even come close, yep why was every GM so stupid, that was the obvious pick. Damn.

[Final_quest]

I think Mr. H's post was directed towards the OP.

Indiana's first pick of the 2nd round didn't even make their roster. Wonder what his status his.

I listened to 790 yesterday, and they said something about Salim. No one know why he isn't playing. I'm gonna reserve judgement until we find out what's going on. It sounds like either an injury or team discipline.

[mrhonline]

Diesel, I was agreeing with you. Sorry for the confusion.

[Sothron]

So at what point of passing over better players does BK need to reach in order for him to be fired? What's the magic number here? We've already seen Paul, Felton, Deron, Roy, Foye, Gay, Ellis, Deng, Igoudala (sp?) and who knows who else in just the last two seasons.

Knight will remain as long as the Atlanta Spirit is fighting wtih Belkin. Which may last until next season.

[TheDude]

are we REALLY complaining about a 2nd round pick? it's A 2ND ROUND PICK. if you get a 2nd rounder that makes some sort of impact, then you've done really really well. Salim has the skills to be a good impact player for us. it's his own fault, not BK's, that he plays out of control sometimes.

[mrhonline]

Look at that year's second round:

http://www.nbadraft.net/2005.asp

Salim has been more productive than at least 20 of the 2nd rounders picked, and even some of the first rounders.

Look at the 2004 draft:

http://www.nbadraft.net/2004.asp

Ivey has been more productive for this team than most of the 2nd rounders drafted.

Have Knight's drafts been optimal? No way. Certain players in each draft have been more productive.

Have they been piss poor? No way.

Every first round pick has proven worthy of being in the rotation and most of them look like they're going to be NBA starters. The second rounders are less talented, for sure, but the fact that guys like Stoudamire and Jones are even part of the rotation is a success compared with most teams.

There is room for a middle ground here, folks. You don't have to either idolize Knight or despise his existence. Ultimately, your opinion of Knight depends on what criteria you use to evaluate him. If you're expecting him to have picked the best player possible in every single situation, I think you're asking too much. (I mostly worry that a player will be a total bust. That hasn't happened yet).

[drzachary]

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So at what point of passing over better players does BK need to reach in order for him to be fired? What's the magic number here? We've already seen Paul, Felton, Deron, Roy, Foye, Gay, Ellis, Deng, Igoudala (sp?) and who knows who else in just the last two seasons.

Knight will remain as long as the Atlanta Spirit is fighting wtih Belkin. Which may last until next season.

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Wow.. I can't even IMAGINE the level of vitriol that would be sent BK's way if he had drafted Rudy Gay.

[Sothron]

Why not? He's 6'9" and can play either forward spot and can't pass. He'd be a perfect Knight lottery pick.

Mrhonline, you'll have to excuse me I expect more out of our general manager than "Well he didn't pick the absolute worst pick every single year, just near the bottom every year". When you have a general manager in what six years? seven? that can't put together a team that can surpass thirty wins more than deserves firing.

[mrhonline]

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Mrhonline, you'll have to excuse me I expect more out of our general manager than "Well he didn't pick the absolute worst pick every single year, just near the bottom every year".

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So, you're saying that the Joshes and Williams were the worst possible picks? Obviously, I don't agree.

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When you have a general manager in what six years? seven?

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There have been a whopping two complete seasons of total rebuilding. Two. Not six. Not seven. Two.

(And, in that second season, the team improved as much as almost every other team in the NBA).

[TexasPete]

I'm not complaining at all about a 2nd round pick. I'm complaining about Billy Knight passing over another fine young talent. This kid was strongly considered on the Hawks board and they went with the wrong guy...for the 100th time. The Hawks were said to have loved Ellis...and they went with Salim. This kid is a helluva lot more than a number 2 pick, he is headed to the big time within a few years. I love Marvin...but I would take Paul. I love Childress...but I think Iggy or Deng are better. I don't like Shelden at all...would have loved Roy. I like Speedy...would rather have drafted Roy and received something more for AL, or gotten help on the front line in free agency. I don't like Salim...I would rather have Monta Ellis. I like Solomon but there were several players BETTER on the board and we passed on them for a raw player.

This rebuilding effort has been DELAYED a year or two with choosing good players...when BETTER ones were on the board. If you can't see it, I can't help you. But I spend a large chunk of change on my tickets every year so I am actually invested in this deal...I don't just talk about it on message boards. I will be in Philips, God willing, 35 times this season and I haven't seen the playoffs for 7 freaking years. I want Billy Knight to start taking the BEST player just once or twice. Not a decent player, the BEST player. Make sense?

[mrhonline]

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This rebuilding effort has been DELAYED a year or two with choosing good players...when BETTER ones were on the board.

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I applaud TexasPete for actually giving the criteria he uses to evaluate Knight. He wants Knight to be the best GM in the NBA; that is, the GM who always picks the best player in the optimal situation.

Personally, I think a GM who consistently picks good players in the first round (e.g., Smith, Childress), role players who make the team in the 2nd (e.g., Salim, Jones), picks up good young talent in free agency (e.g., JJ, Zaza), and balances that talent with veterans (e.g., Wright, Claxton), all while maintaining financial flexibility (i.e., no bad contracts) and dealing with MAJOR ownership issues, would be considered a good GM by the fans of most teams in the NBA.

Not a *great* GM, but *good* one. And most fans who have a poor GM (ahem, New York) would be glad to have a *good* GM.

[Final_quest]

I understand both sides, but it's tough to convince me that the GM and scouts are expected to get the best player every time.

Diaw- possibly best player available with only one other possibility

Childress- Deng and Iggy might be marginally better, but I think this is like splitting hairs. Certainly not a drafting blunder

Smoove- Does anyone question this pick?

Marvin- Even now people are writing that he could easily be known as the best player in his draft.

Salim- umm...Ellis looks better right now, but Salim still has time to make his case. Isn't it a good sign that the other guy we heavily considered ended up being so good?

Shelden- I still say BK is trying to save his job with this pick, and it just might work.

To me, unless you expect perfection I think BK's drafting holds up. Like I said, if we lose badly this year he'll be gone, but if we play well what can we say about him?

[GoDawgs21]

WOW!!! You should be banned for life from this board. This is the same problem all no Hawks fans have. BK has been here now into his 4th season. 4 not 6 or 7 like you say. 4. Count that 1,2,3,4. So he has had 3 full years and 3 games into number 4. If we make a playoff push or even win 35 + games you cant tell me taking a team from max salary cap with old tired palyers, to a young exiting cap space having possible playoff team in year 5 isnt the greatest turnaround in the NBA in the last 10 years. So what has he horribly messed up on.

So you say he is a god awful drafter lets review:

2003:

21. Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana) Boris Diaw-Riffiod, G/F, France

21st pick overall, while he didnt fit our system he was rightly or wrongly the MIP of the leauge and is a decent player. From the end of the 1st round I would say that pick right there was better then any Babcock ever made.

2004:

NO. TEAM SELECTION

1 Orlando Dwight Howard | F | 6-11 | 240

SW Atlanta Christian Academy (Ga.)

2 Charlotte (from LAC) Emeka Okafor | F-C | 6-10 | 252

Connecticut

3 Chicago Ben Gordon | G | 6-3 | 200

Connecticut

4 L.A. Clippers (from CHA) Shaun Livingston | G | 6-7 | 175

Peoria Central HS (Ill.)

5 Washington Devin Harris | G | 6-3 | 185

Wisconsin | Rights traded to DAL

6 Atlanta Josh Childress | F | 6-8 | 210

Stanford

7 Phoenix Luol Deng | F | 6-8 | 220

Duke | Rights traded to CHI

8 Toronto Rafael Araujo | C | 6-11 | 290

Brigham Young

9 Philadelphia Andre Iguodala | F | 6-6 | 207

Arizona

10 Cleveland Luke Jackson | F | 6-7 | 215

Oregon

11 Golden State Andris Biedrins | F | 6-11 | 240

Latvia

12 Seattle Robert Swift | C | 7-0 | 245

Bakersfield HS (Calif.)

13 Portland Sebastian Telfair | G | 6-0 | 165

Abraham Lincoln HS (N.Y.)

14 Utah Kris Humphries | F | 6-9 | 235

Minnesota

15 Boston Al Jefferson | F | 6-10 | 265

Prentiss HS (Miss.)

16 Utah (from NYK/PHO) Kirk Snyder | G | 6-6 | 225

Nevada

17 Atlanta (from MIL/DEN/DET) Josh Smith | F | 6-9 | 210

Oak Hill Academy (Va.)

18 New Orleans J.R. Smith | G | 6-6 | 220

St. Benedict’s Prep (N.J.)

19 Miami Dorell Wright | F | 6-7 | 210

Leuzinger HS (Calif.)

20 Denver Jameer Nelson | G | 6-0 | 190

St. Joseph's | Rights traded to ORL

21 Utah (from HOU) Pavel Podkolzin | C | 7-5 | 260

Russia | Rights traded to DAL

22 New Jersey Viktor Khryapa | F | 6-9 | 210

Russia | Rights traded to POR

23 Portland (from MEM) Sergei Monia | F | 6-8 | 220

Russia

24 Boston (from DAL) Delonte West | G | 6-4 | 180

St. Joseph's

25 Boston (from DET) Tony Allen | G | 6-4 | 213

Oklahoma State

26 Sacramento Kevin Martin | G | 6-7 | 185

Western Carolina

27 L.A. Lakers Sasha Vujacic | G | 6-7 | 193

Slovenia

28 San Antonio Beno Udrih | G | 6-3 | 203

Slovenia

29 Indiana David Harrison | C | 7-0 | 250

Colorado

Please tell me who else from picks 6-29 are heads and shoulders above the two we picked. Iggy, Deng, and Chillz are the same exact players. That is a blindfold pick at who is better. So who should Billy have taken with the 17th pick. You mock BK how bout Rafel at 7, that was a winner.

2005:

2 Marvin Williams, I will give you Paul might be the better pick right now at this moment. But you cant tell me Deron or anyone of those other guys are. Marvin is still 19 and is looking to breakout you are condemming this pick 1 year and only 4 starts into a 19yr olds career. LOL. We all knew Paul was going to be better one year out he was a seasoned college vet. Lets revist at the end of this year or next year.

So please tell me if you would rather have these drafts or say Babcocks drafts, of Koncack, Lauderdale, Demar, Ed Gray, etc.

There isnt one team in the NBA that can say they have there last 3 1st rd draft picks are all starting in the NBA. Hell in just 2004's draft players behind Chill in the 1st rd; only 5 are starters and one is Josh Smith. So in 22 picks by other GMS only 4 are starting in this league.

So I guess all those other GM's are lousy too, uh.

[Sothron]

Knight has been here 2002. That is more than enough time to produce something more than the slideshow of 6'9" wunderkinds who can't even win thirty games. As Texas Pete and myself have said previously this man has blown picks by taking decent players when we could have had much better.

Mrhonline, I did not say the Joshes and Marvin were the absolute worst picks. Reread my post prior to this one. I said that just because he did NOT make the absolute worst picks does not mean he should be kept.

If peddling mediocrity is sufficient for most of you then Pete Babcock never should have been fired. Pete at least managed to put together 50+ win teams to his credit. Using the new Hawks fans criteria that should put him somewhere between God and Jesus.