Here is where BK really screwed up...

[TexasPete]

Nice try by another BK defender. That is NOT my team. I would take different players under different scenarios. For example, if I had take CP3 I would have adjusted my pick this year and gone with another forward. That is just one example. If Marvin was a Hawk...I would have taken Roy this year. I would also have done the Al deal differently because there was a lot more interest than AH than Indy and GS. But, nice try jamming that team into my column. One pick changes te whole scenario. If I had taken Iggy I definitely would have taken Paul or Deron Williams. I also loved Monta in college, had a chance to see him in a showcase game aganst Louis Williams and he destroyed Louis...no small feat.

I love the way GD decided that CP3 would wear down and have a short career...and the guy we took over him is currently in a cast. That just proves you can't factor injuries into the equation...nobody knows which kids are going to have the injuries...not even a self proclaimed hoop expert like Gutz.

[Sothron]

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I was listening to Paul Hewitt talking about Chris Paul on the radio. The host said the Hawks must have scouted Paul when he played Tech because Tech manhandled Paul usually. Then Hewitt said that he wouldn't be surprised if Paul wasn't on the Olympic team in 08 because he couldn't man up with bigger guards.

You wonder what Paul's legacy will be in a few years.

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When I posted at realgm before it got banned by my workplace about how poor of a defensive player Paul is the posters would go, to excuse the phrase, apesh!t on me and flame me to a toasty kupo. Paul is simply a horrible defensive player whose small body and frame will always be a defensive liability. Contrast that with, say, Deron Williams who has a NBA body and is very good defensively. I would much, much, much rather have Deron Williams than Chris Paul or Marvin Williams (sorry Marv).

[drzachary]

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Nice try by another BK defender. That is NOT my team. I would take different players under different scenarios. For example, if I had take CP3 I would have adjusted my pick this year and gone with another forward. That is just one example. If Marvin was a Hawk...I would have taken Roy this year. I would also have done the Al deal differently because there was a lot more interest than AH than Indy and GS. But, nice try jamming that team into my column. One pick changes te whole scenario. If I had taken Iggy I definitely would have taken Paul or Deron Williams. I also loved Monta in college, had a chance to see him in a showcase game aganst Louis Williams and he destroyed Louis...no small feat.

I love the way GD decided that CP3 would wear down and have a short career...and the guy we took over him is currently in a cast. That just proves you can't factor injuries into the equation...nobody knows which kids are going to have the injuries...not even a self proclaimed hoop expert like Gutz.

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I think a great team could have been:

PG - paul

SG - roy

SF - smoove

PF - (use JJ money here?)

C - zaza

Although Paul could have pushed us out of the running for Roy.

[TexasPete]

The one deal I love by BK, other than Josh Smith, was getting JJ. Even if we may have given away more than necessary...it was worth it. The man is about ready to step into elite status. I would hate to think what we would be like without him. BTW, I'm not saying BK is a bottom 10 GM...just not one of the better ones...not in the top 10. How anybody other than KB21 can argue that is beyond me.

[Final_quest]

Sounds like a reasonable perspective. BK seems middle of the road to me. I like his spending strategy, and we can compete on one of the lowest payrolls which is nice.

[GoDawgs21]

Texas Pete Got no Sauce, please still answer anyone of the questions I raised above with any facts. So you saw Monta, play against Louis Williams, funny cause Louis didnt play in college.

The bigger question is have you ever played against Louis?

We played at Ramsey all year round and in the summer time when coaches "couldnt run practice" all the players would play up there a "trainer" would watc hand give direction. Mike and Louis came up there and played for almost a week. They got beat by the likes of Rashaud and even took some hard fouls from Steve Thomas. The point is they were in HS. So now you going to say that BK sohuld have gone to watch Monta play Louis in HS game and should automatically see he is NBA ready ot lead a team. You get funny as this post goes on.

[Fanboy3000]

Eh, you win some you lose some.

[jerrywest]

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The one deal I love by BK, other than Josh Smith, was getting JJ. Even if we may have given away more than necessary...it was worth it. The man is about ready to step into elite status. I would hate to think what we would be like without him. BTW, I'm not saying BK is a bottom 10 GM...just not one of the better ones...not in the top 10. How anybody other than KB21 can argue that is beyond me.

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In this day and age with suffocating Free Agency situation imposed by the bosses to keep the salary down, its close to impossible to land an elite level young player through free agency. Even #1 picks have below 50% chance of becoming elite. When someone does that you got to forgive blunders like the Greek guy and whatever 2nd rounder 12th man.

Every manager in the NBA passed on Michael Redd before he was picked at 43rd. Many of them passed him twice. Even the Bucks passed him taking Collier 30 picks ahead of him. Same story with Ginobilli, falling to 57. Our own Babcock passed him 5 times and we had 4 first round picks that year. Face it, every GM's glass is half full and half empty. If you don't get it, nobody in this board is qualified to help you. (I don't know if anyone here has reclining chair in his office)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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The one deal I love by BK, other than Josh Smith, was getting JJ. Even if we may have given away more than necessary...it was worth it. The man is about ready to step into elite status. I would hate to think what we would be like without him. BTW, I'm not saying BK is a bottom 10 GM...just not one of the better ones...not in the top 10. How anybody other than KB21 can argue that is beyond me.

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I had typed up a nice response to those draft scenarios you gave, but my screen mysteriously closed out on me. I guess they're watching what I'm doing here at work.

I'm curious though Pete. You say that BK isn't a bottom 10 GM . . and you say that he's not a top 10 GM.

2 questions for you then:

1) What is the overall grade you would give BK as a GM?

2) Name 10 GMs, in your opinion, that has done a better job than BK in the last 4 years . . not career . . but in the last 4 years. If you can't name the actual GMs, name the teams that you think have made better personnel moves in the last 4 years, than we have.

[TexasPete]

GD, your wearing me out. I watched Louis play a HS game in Mississippi against Monta. I thought Louis was the best HS player I ever saw...until that night. Monta was a better shooter, almost as quick, and was bigger and stronger. No, I haven't played against Louis. I suppose that makes you smarter, like Gutz, right?

[GoDawgs21]

No it doesnt make me smarter. But you saw him play on one night in one game. What if a team was trapping him? He had an off night etc? Im just saying I stood on the same court with him. Doesnt make me smarter, makes me more educated to make decisions.

That is the problem with you, you are making all these statements, and yet not one fact. You are regurgetating what others say and dont have any facts for your argument.

The solution is simple educate yourself then add some validity to your argument and we will listen.

You say BK isnt a top ten gm. OK, so lets see your ok with JJ, your ok with Zaza. So its not his FA pick ups you have a probelm with.

Draftwise I see you would rather have Paul, thats fine. So you main problem with an NBA GM is not drafting a guy you like in hindsight, but drafting the guy everyone and his brother thinks will be a perinal all-star. Oh, and his 2nd round draft choices arent making a big enough impact.

If you have problems with this try being anywhere else. A Knicks fan drafteing Bachmon in the first rd, now there's a dtretch at draft picks. Giving what amounts to 18 million with the luxury tax to Jared Jefferies.

Did you want BK to waste our money on Kenyon or other highpriced guys hurting our leverage with actually good FA. I bet you whined when we didnt get Kenyon and Dampier. NEWS FLASH if we signed either of them we couldnt afford JJ. You look at what is right in front of you but look at the big pic.

I will bet my house that if we are winning next year you will have no problem with any of this. Thats called a front runner and fairweather fan. You can support them when things are good, but you cant handle the growing pains to get there.

[Sothron]

I might be crazy but anyone who posts on this board is a Hawks fan. Anyone who cares enough to debate the team and its GM or coach or ownership is a fan. Some of us may like BK, some may not, but we are all Hawks fans. You don't get a special button for being a supporter of every single move we make nor do you get extra internet cool points for being proven right about a decision over the team.

And just for Dr. Z...kupo.

[GoDawgs21]

IM not saying I was a supporter of all the moves, go back up I stated my preference was that we trade down and get O'Byant.( I cant use hindsight like petey) I wanted a defensive force in the paint. My entire point in this thread today was you may not be happy with the picks/moves, but to call BK the worst GM or awful GM and throw him under the bus for not picking up an NBDL league player that every team had a shot at, and critizgin a second rd pick is ludacris. You may not be happy with soem moves, but from what BK was given to work with. I would say its one of the better GM jobs in the league. An old tired over the cap team and only 3 years under the cap and a talented young team that has a chance.

[TexasPete]

I would give BK a solid C+. You can't just go on the last 4 years. You have a faulty premise. Some GM's built their teams before 4 years...and still have the core in place. That doesn't mean BK is better. Here are some GM's I rank over BK...

Washington (grunfeld) A great core recently assembled with Jamison, Arenas, Hayes, Etan Thomas, and Caron Butler)They didn't build Rome in a day...they did it in two.

NJ (Rod Thorn) One of the better GM's for awhile, an Eastern conference contender. Fleeced the raps for VC.

PHX (mainly Colangelos) Their record the last few years speaks for itself.

Chicago (paxson) My personal favorite...a nice roster 1-12. Fleeced I-Thomas.

Miami (Randy Pfund/riley) just won the ring.

Detroit (dumars) won the ring and put together a great nucleus. Blew the Darko pick. Still won ring.

San Antonio (Pops) won several rings. Maybe the best in the league.

Lakers (Kupchak) two years after Shaq and a couple of nice drafts have them contending. It didn't take these guys long.

Dallas (little nellie) They have been bad this year, that won't last. Look at their draft history. Even their FA signings that look strange (Diop) work out. Josh Howard was a steal.

LA Clips (baylor) don't laugh...Elgin is now allowed to spend money and they have as much depth 1-10 as any team in the league. A ton of talent but too many gunners. Anyway, these guys have pieces and lots of them...Livingston, Kaman, Brand, SamIAm, Cuttino, Ross, Maggette, etc.

Milwaukee (Larry Harris) not there yet but these guys have some nice pieces. Fleeced younger colangelo getting Charlie V. for a marginal and undersized PG. This guy has done a nice job but hired a crap coach.

Indy (Donnie) Has done a nice job over the years. Got JO for a snickers and a coke. Got Al for just a coke.

There are some others in the same league with Billy. I probably would put Utah ahead of BK but I can't think of the guys name. There is my list and I'm sure you will tear it to pieces...its the popular thing to do.

[GoDawgs21]

Im not about tearing your guys to pieces. I am just trying to say you are picking apart BK for every lil detail.

PHX giving Diaw all that money. Letting JJ go.

MIA um there teams age. Not one significant player other then Wade is under 30. So you go one pop like the Marlins to pad Riley's record but what do they do in several years when everyone is gone.

Chicago- You personal favorite, oh I am overjoyed you took this one. They missed the playoffs for 7 years. So it took them 7 years to rebuild. We are turnign the corner in year 4. Thanks for proving my point. They just made the 1st round and thats it. If we do that this year or next wouldnt that make BK's job quicker and equal. Thanks for picking that one buddy, you made my job too easy.

Dallas with that absurd contract to Dampier. Is worse then anything BK has done.

My point isnt that I am teraing you down. You are giving BK a short stick when even the GM's you put on this list have made bigger mistakes then any that BK has. So if you are willing to over look their mistakes, and only look at their positives why cant you see BK got us JJ,Zaza, Smoove, and cap room. Most of the guys on your list got 1 player from the top 3 picks, and havent done much else. With a bad trade or something they have negativie too. BK is really in his first year with his top pick Marvin. All I am saying is dont trash him for his 2nd rd pick and an NBDL guy.

[gsuteke]

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Gutz, you don't know a thing about whether BK's hands are tied or not. Not a thing. In fact, listening to Bruce Levenson (who is a class guy), it is the exact opposite...BK just hasn't found the right guys. So, between you and GD, I have a hard time responding because your facts are off. Second, don't call me dude. I'm not one of your HS classmates. BK had options that you don't know about, that I know about because I have a direct line into two owners. They know how I feel about the situation and happen to disagree. But you need to clam up yourself, the only idiot in this deal is you because you don't know a thing about whats happening in the organization. BTW, the Hawks had other options in the AL deal and chose the Indy deal, but there were options. I take it you wouldn't take CP3 over MW? Iggy over Chill? Roy over SW? Ellis over Salim? Paul Milsap (you probably don't know him) over Solomon Jones? And I bet you loved that your boy Billy didn't work out the top 6 players in the draft, that was fine right? BK is not the worst GM and he isn't in the top 10 either. But all you have in this world is your track record and his isn't too good. He is measured in W's and L's and his Grizzlies and Hawks gigs make him the worst GM record wise in NBA history. Now, you may defend that dubious distinction...but I'm not as sold or as blind as you are. Try supporting the team with your hard earned cash and then come back and talk to me. It might also help if you watch a few games on the tube. And not just Hawks games so you can watch some of the guys your buddy passed on.

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Hey DUDE I can call you that all I want. What are you gonna do about it? Don't act like i'm some young HS punk. Second i'm sure you have direct ties with the owners. Give me a break. How can you say he doesn't have his hands tied? are you nuts? The courts even said he can't sign anyone over 4yrs. Get your facts straight man! Your the one showing zero facts with your arguments. You haven't backed one of them yet. I've also heard of Milsap btw. He is a great rebounder no doubt but undersized. I know a lot more about college basketball and its players than you. Trust me.

Pertaining to BK and his decisions in FA, that was exactly my point in the last post if you care to read it. There hasn't been one good FA out there for BK to throw some serious money at. I'm sure if the owners wanted to go another way in the AL trade they would have made that clear to BK obviously. They own the team right? That is another reason why I seriously doubt your so-called ownership connections. I could care less either way. I also watch plenty of basketball and obviously have more knowledge of it than you.

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he got internet gangster on here yesterday. he's a bad mo fo

[Sothron]

Paxson was not the GM for all 7 years of their missing the playoffs. If Krause had not been an idiot the Bulls would right now be the best team in the NBA if Elton Brand was still there and with Ben Wallce on the team as it currently stands. I still can't believe they traded Brand away for Chandler because Brand was "only" a 20/10 PF.

[TexasPete]

LOL...Billy was dying to sign that stiff Dampier...and was turned down. Paxson didn't miss the playoffs 7 years. He cleaned up the mess, quickly I might add. I was supposed to list 10 GM's better than BK IMO. That's what I did. I would love Northcydes response.

[GoDawgs21]

Um, side note we never offered Damp the max we offered him sig. less to what we thought he was worth, dont get what people say on here or in the media as to what we actually want. We wanted a body but not for the max deal he got.

Secondly in response to the Paxson deal. Not I said the Bulls took 7 years. In your previous post you said how long of a playoff drought does it take for money paying fans to get upset ad you said 6 or 7 years. You held BK accountable for havingthe time before him. Can we not say that Paxson walked into a team that was already rebuidling. He ad pieces he could use to trade like Curry and Chandler. As noted in the previous post he also had 3 top 10 picks to aide in the rebuilding. Look at his average draft position compared to Atl. BK literally had to spend a year undoing what Babcock did to allow himself to be able to manuever under the salary cap. Paxson came in with the Bulls way under and could go out and do as he pleased. Billy had to wait to get rid of the bloated contracts. They take over at the same time say you are a GM from a third team and you get two calls.

"Dear Sir we have this player he is a 33 yr old center with two years left on his overpriced contract, what do you think"

"Dear Sir we have a 22 year old that still might his peak on his rookie contract and we want a lotto pick.

Now which team o you think they trade with, and you wonder why Paxson was able to get his 3 top ten picks.

[terrynoonan]

I've played with and against Louis quite a few times. He used to run at Lenora Park before being a Sixer and he still shows up now and again. He's a great kid, but the greatest you ever saw? He performed horribly in the All-Star games against other High School comp. He can rise with the best of them, but he's very small for an NBA palyer. That makes a lot of things difficult. Period.

I haven't read this whole thread but it seems really nerdy guys. Talking about who you would have picked and then based on that...? Let's talk about who we have.