BK is making the critics look foolish!!!

[mrhonline]

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But you wouldn't trade Duncan for Foster would you?

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Duncan yo-yo's? Or Tim Duncan, who when healthy is still the best player in the NBA?

[GoDawgs21]

Sothy you crack me up. So you say mid teens and you bring me the earliest prediction that doesnt even factor in senior years, or what teams need close to the draft after trades made, and its still 12th. So ok using yours. Thats 7 teams to trade with. Still dont know what big man would have been takin ahead of him. But in a draft that isnt deep no team traded up because they didnt think they would get enough value in return for what they were giving up. If you think a guy will fall to you that will help you, why trade up. I'm sure you knew we could get a first rd and move down and still get Shel, wish we all knew that. Way to find one sight that has it at 12, guess the 5 i should are all wrong, sorry I'll talk to the writers see why they didnt consult you.

Sorry ESPN isn't a credible enough source, sorry actual boxscores from CBSSPORTSLINE showing who started in games at each postion isnt good enough for you. I will start using the fantasy sites ,with playes fantasy eligablity. My apologies. Next you keep bringing up Luther, the only reason he has minutes right now is bonzi is hurt and Tmac was being brought along slowly with that back. But you once again prove my point. You said Chill would leave for the opp. to start. That he would want to start and not be a role player. Then your example is a bench guy coming in and getting sig. minutes. Isn't that what he does here? So why would he leave for the same role on a diffrent team? That kinda destroys your theory.

You actually think bringing up BK bashing by someone other then Chad Ford is new? Read any thread on here the media hates BK because he wont talk to them to give them stories, he likes to hold his cards close to his vest. So now you can only base you ideas off what biased journalist write??? Can you not form your own opinion?

I do find it funny in the last thread 4 people came out to tell you, you were wrong, with only pesimest walt coming to your defense. Funny how that works. The coverpage on NBA section of ESPN is a pic of Shell saying his and LO's presences down low is the key for our turnaround, yet you still wont beleive it.

[Sothron]

You wanted "sources" to verify what I had read and heard. I did a quick search online and unfortunately alot of the better draft sites have already removed their early mocks. The ONLY times you see Shellhead being considered at #5 or even in the top ten is when news of the promise was leaked. Apparently BK isn't as impervious to the media as he thought.

You again show your inability to read. I brought up Luther and said LAST season he started or played significant minutes at both the 1 and 2. The Rockets signed Bonzi as an upgrade to Luther for this season. If Chill had been available then don't you think they would go for him? Hell even WITH Bonzi on the team don't you think they would go after Chill if they could?

You are dodging the question again. You are the one who disagreed with me that Chill could easily start for a number of teams in the NBA. In fact you said he could not start for any team in the NBA. Then later on you disagreed with me about Chill and said he was a GREAT pick and you would take him over other players in that draft that ARE STARTING NOW. So which is it cupcake? Which side of your mouth do you want to argue from today, 11/16/6? Either Chill is good enough of a pick to start for other teams, and thus reduce our chances of keeping him OR he's just a glorified role player who couldn't start for ANY team in the NBA.

Pick a side and stick to it. Its almost comical to sit here and watch you own yourself in thread after thread but the way you keep coming back is enough to make it worth a chuckle of my time.

And I just have to add here...whose the one who told you guys about Knight's relationship with Ford and the media? Oh that's right...me. Whose the one who told you guys in the summer about Harrington and the ownership situation because he has sources inside the team? That's right....me. So you'll forgive me if I find your attempts to impugn my credibility as something bordering laughable.

And just to be fair there is a lot of criticism that Knight gets that is fair and not just from ruffled feathers from media guys who don't have the pipeline that Babcock was. Even people on your "side" of this argument have said on this site (and others) that Knight has made mistakes.

Are you KB21 posting under a new username here?

[GoDawgs21]

Been a member since 04' so no not KB, but funny how you dont read. igave you he could start for 3 or 4 teams. What I said was at his postion teams aren't going to throw thje kind of money at him that we couldnt match. There are too many talented players at that postion. I also posted the quote of how its harder to find a glue guy then a star. I showed you compared to the draft behind him Chill is equal or better then most every other pick, I cant help the draft didnt have any superstars after the top 2. Go back and read this, I love Chill, and thats why I want him. The whole debate was you saying a team would toss so much money at him to start we wouldnt be able to keep him. My point is I said look below for quote that he could start for 3 or 4 teams. But how many SG's become FA every year to fill those 3 or 4 openings. We havent gone crazy in cap space so we do have room to resign our core guys.

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no thats my point I am giving you 3 or 4 teams. But with so few teams looking for a guy like that and multiple guys at that postion it is highly unlikely that he gets an offer we cant match.

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See thats the real funny part you mention charlotte, but there starting back court is brevin knight and raymond felton. The exact guy you say we missed, and thus us havinga bad pick. So now you have him replacing a guy or upgrading a guy you used to say would have been a better pick later on by BK. Do you even think before you type, I just covered your first list. Your also list included boston which would be paul pierce. need i go on.

You mention luther Head and kirk snyder, funny they are on the same team and they are 3rd and 4th on the rockets depth charts. So yeh i think chill could be better then them, but we were looking for starters. tmac and bonzi are ahead of of those guys on their own team. Wait is that another team that can hold on to 4 guys that are 6-6 to 6-9, tmac at the 2, bonzi, battier, howard. funny i see more and more teams built like the hawks. all by gm's u say are better the bk but they are doing the same thing.

you are the king of changing your stance. earlier it was upgrading from a d to a c now its a c or b to b or a. Damn that bad pick with so many other options is going to be an all-star by the end of the night when you keep changing. I lvoe Chill cause he allows us to have that depth we need to run. Love him to death. But I am just showing your flip flop arguments, and why will be able to keep him. the same reason detriot kept prince. other teams arent ging to through more then 5 or 6 million a year to a guy at a spot they either have filled or have projects they want to work out. Thats not saying chill and prince are bad, they are key for their teams, but other teams dont give them tons of money to leave. Just a fact.

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Last paragraph my point in a nut shell.

[Sothron]

You have 115 posts in two years and I would guess that easily 40 of those posts have come from trolling, I mean, debating with me. So yes you'll forgive me if I think you are someone's troll alias on this site.

Let's get back to your crap.

The Hawks in case you missed the memo are in an ownership squabble that can easily last another two years beyond this. The Hawks in case you missed the memo are not in a position to pay the luxury tax. The Hawks in case you missed the memo are not in a position to be able to resign ALL of our young talent.

So what kind of money do you think Chill would take to stay here? The 1.12 or so exception? Between JJ, Claxton, Zaza, Marvin and Shellhead that is not going to leave much room for Smoove and Chill. Toss in Lo Down if he's still here or whatever guys we have to flush out the roster and I can *easily* see a scenario where we are forced to do a S&T with one or both of the Josh's. Now you may think that is a fine scenario and who knows, perhaps you could be right.

But that does not change the reality that it will be very difficult if impossible for the Hawks to keep both of those guys. Especially when you consider the ownership fiasco.

I have not seen any other poster on this site, from Walter to the anti-Walter in KB21 disagree with that opinion. Except for you.

And just for a closing thought for you cupcake: if Chill keeps up this play for the rest of his rookie contract he will be one of the hottest FA commodities on the market. Period. Care to disagree with that and add post 116 in your two year tenure?

[GoDawgs21]

So your agrument is proven invalid and you resort to calling me cupcake. Lets review, or you should do your hw before talking.

Note all major FA would not be until 2008 hopefully, it does not take 2 years to settle the owner mess. If we can start winning in Hawks or Thrashers and creating revenue I believe these owners would invest more money. They are Atlanta sports fans and do care about the teams. But in this assumption we wont even factor that in.

Atlanta Hawks Date # of total

Player signed years salary

misc FA

Esteban Batista ....... 9/12/05 2 ??? '07

Cedric Bozeman ........ 9/29/06 1 minimum '07

Matt Freije ........... 9/29/06 1 minimum '07

Royal Ivey ............ 10/3/04 3 $1.95 million '07

Josh Childress ........ 7/12/04 4 $11,662,931 rc '08

Solomon Jones ......... 7/12/06 2 minimum t-opt '08

Tyronn Lue ............ 8/24/05 3 ??? '08

Josh Smith ............ 7/12/04 4 $6,339,623 rc '08

Salim Stoudamire ...... 8/24/05 3 ??? '08

Lorenzen Wright ....... 8/30/06 2 $6 million '08

Zaza Pachulia ......... 8/8/05 4 $16 million '09

Marvin Williams ....... 7/12/05 4 $18,160,542 rc t-opt '09

Speedy Claxton ........ 7/12/06 4 $25 million '10

Joe Johnson ........... 8/19/05 5 $70 million '10

Shelden Williams ...... 7/10/06 4 $13,825,268 rc t-opt '09+10

http://www.dfw.net/%7Epatricia/contracts

Note the salary cap has been growing at about a 8% clip per year since 2002.

There fore we have until 2008 to worry bout the Josh's. JJ and Speedy are locked up until 2010. That gives us 2-4 years with this core. We are currently at $39.6 million against the cap.

So growing the salary cap at 8% that gives in 2008 a rough guess at the cap at $61.98 million. Note JJ's and Speedy's contracts actually decrease over time. So assuming we sign several of the role guys back like freije maybe bose, to the minimum. Grant you we sign maybe a mid level FA next year and our draft pick. Factor all that in with JJ and Speedy's decreasing salary. can we reasonable say in 2008 your salary is roughly $47 or $48 million??? That being mostly money on the draft picks. We can also assume with the development of Jones and Shel, that LO at his age will prob not be retained. So now we are talking about $45 million for 2008 budget. That gives us almost $19 million to resign Chill and Smith. Say Chill gets a deal simialar to Prince which is giving him a lot of credit.

Tayshaun Prince ....... 9/2/02,10/31/05 4+5 $4,541,153+$48 mill '11

We can then assume that with inflation that deal in 2008 probably becomes 6.5 million in year one? Is that not about what most starters get, not stars but starters. So that takes us to 12.5 million for Smoove. Assuming he gets which would still be on the ridiculously high side of $9 million. I am being generous here to show you what is realistic. it will probably be less. So now at the end of 2008 we have $3.5 million under the cap.

Now if the cap continues to grow i will even slow it down for you at 5%. So the new cap of 65 million. We have almost 7 million plus the exception for Zaza. So we could concieveable have our core signed through 2010. Im hoping somewhere in that 4 years we draft a PG to groom to take over for Speedy. So now you have him inserted and lose Speedy's contract in 2010. Keep in mind all the while Speedy and JJ's contracts descend giving more money each year which I am contributing to signing role players and smaller draft picks. Then in 2010 Speedy and JJ's contracts come off. You can use the money from Speedy's deal to toss at JJ on top of what he is making thus making it a max deal.

How hard is it to see that it is completely concivable to sign our guys still get smaller tier FA's and our draft picks for the next 4 seasons. You see this young group gelling now, give it 3 years of hopeful winning basketball.

All of this without exceeding the salary cap. Funny how when you do your homework you can actually prove a point.

[Sothron]

My point was actually proven. You said Childress couldn't start for any team, now he can start for 3-4 teams, then he can't start for any team, now he can start. Its like watching a tennis match played by one guy. You jump from one side to the other. Its comical.

It can easily take two years or more to settle the ownership fiasco. Another incorrect statement from you. The legal process involves multiple appeals from all sides and the likely legal intervention of the NBA and NHL against Belkin. You have no idea what you are talking about if you think this situation can't easily last two or more years. If Belkin drops his suits (or the AS) then it could potentially take less but the AS is budgeting around a very long legal fight. Key note: the current people in charge of the Hawks pursestrings are budgeting for a very long fight with roster restrictions put in place not only by the luxury tax but by the courts rulings.

Talk about not doing homework. I suppose in 116 posts in two years you must have missed the whole legal and court battles. But you aren't someone's troll alias.

In 2008 we will have to deal with having to resign both Joshes with an eye in 2009 to keeping Zaza and Marvin. Now call me crazy but if Zaza keeps progressing I'm going to guess that in the day and age when stiffs like Dampier get max salaries (or close to it) that Zaza is going to command at least 10 million a year and that's not including inflation. With inflation that's probably 13 million a year. We can't give Josh and Josh deals around 9-10 million a year and still expect to keep Zaza. We also would then have to include resigning Joe Cool in 2010. Or Marvin and Shellhead.

That btw does not include: signing some mid level (or higher) exception contracts for free agent(s) that gets BK's eye. Or making a trade that could get completely skew our payroll situation. Or having to give a second round pick mid level or more money to retain them if one of them comes along and earns it.

At some point in 2008 or 2009 or 2010 these young players and potential draft picks who pan out are all going to be getting real starter's money. And unless something drastic happens with our ownership this team won't pay the luxury tax. So for you to sit there and tell me its totally unrealistic to be apprehensive over rather or not we can keep the two Joshes is just insane.

One last point: this is just dollars and cents. If our team does not start to win games then I sincerely doubt either of these guys are going to take money to stay on a losing team in bench roles if another team can offer a better team and starter's minutes and roles. My worry is not just about the salary cap. Its about the mindset of two guys in their twenties who could leave for better pastures.

I'll repeat one last time for posterity's sake: I actually hope you ARE right about this. I'd like to keep both guys. I just don't think we can. We can keep debating hypothetical scenarios in two years time if you want but nothing you say or conjecture will change that apprehension.

[GoDawgs21]

Please go back and ACTUALLY read the link I posted with our thread. I never said Chill wouldnt start in your original list I even gave you two of your teams and agreed, from the get go. My point thats why even went back and pulled the quote, I conceeded from the beginning that he could start for 3-4 teams. My point was just like Prince who could start for 3 or 4 teams that thier postion if overloaded with draft picks that teams want to see get better or other FA's. Prince could start for probably 7 or 8 teams and he only recieved 5 mill a year. So now Chill who is marginally less or the same player to him and only saying start for 3 or 4 teams why are teams all of a sudden going to pay through the roof. I never said once he shouldnt start for 3 or 4 teams.

It is extremely evident that you dont even read, but just skim through my post. I factored in signing mid tier complimentary FA's in my scenario.

Secondly the reason I never posted was this reason right here. You [censored] bout BK not drafting well, then you say his draft pick will be the envy of the FA world, and are worried bout keeping a team togther in 2 years. I usually sit back and keep quite, but you sir seriously needed to be called out. Thats why 4 posters on the topic tried to show you your error in logic and flip flopping opinions.

I'm not doubting you being a fan, but to sit there and ridacule a man that was given basically a situation like the KNicks with aging veterans, and no cap room. Then waste a year stripping it all down, and then in 3 years has the team looking good to make possible a playoff run if not keep it intresting and a young core of guys to build off of with cap space. You insane. BK hasnt had the luxury of getting picks like Lebron, Howard, or the such. His first draft in rebuilding was the 22nd pick. You are the fan that whines when we are losing, yet cant see the progress. Then doesnt give any credit when we start winning.

[BusBoyIsBack]

WHo the hell cares where Shelden was projected to go in the draft?

The bottomline is that he was the most sensible pick. HE was a polished, interior defender. We were the youngest team in NBA history with the worst interior defense in the NBA.

And have we suffered because of that pick? No. We've gone from one of the worst defenses in the league, to one of the best. Is it all because of Shelden? Of course not, but he is a vocal leader that helps bring a defensive mindset to this team which is the side of the ball our coach is all about.

[Guest Walter]

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WHo the hell cares where Shelden was projected to go in the draft?

The bottomline is that he was the most sensible pick. HE was a polished, interior defender. We were the youngest team in NBA history with the worst interior defense in the NBA.

And have we suffered because of that pick? No. We've gone from one of the worst defenses in the league, to one of the best. Is it all because of Shelden? Of course not, but he is a vocal leader that helps bring a defensive mindset to this team which is the side of the ball our coach is all about.

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"Sensible" is for the mid 1st rd not top 5. Shame on you. A 26 win team losing it's 2nd best player can't think "sensible" when when "sensible" means benching MW, JS, or being a BU, especially when "clearly, undeniably better" (Roy) is available and "potentially game changing (Sene) could be traded down for. Shame on you.

W