For all of those who wanted Paul instead of Marvin

[drzachary]

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Deron Williams is the MVP of the season so far. He not only does everything Paul does on offense he is about 9123902183082 times better on defense. It was a huge mistake passing on Deron Williams. I don't care about Paul. Never did. He can't defend his man and the Hornets record and points allowed shows it. Just watch their games and you can see how much he struggles on defense. Unlike Deron who has a perfect NBA point guard body.

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I thought he'd be a little slower coming along than Paul but Paul exploded last year making many of the "Deron 1st, any franchise Pg 2nd" contengency squirm a little. MW not only has to become better than these guys to justify BK's selection of him over them, but he has to be significantly better as the Pg position is harder to fill, more important to the team, and we had JC, JS, and Diaw already at Sf.

W

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I always wondered why the PG position is so hard to fill (not that I disagree.) After all, isn't the potential pool of NBA players who are 5'10"-6-3" much bigger than the potential pool of NBA players who are taller?

[Guest Walter]

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...We went into that draft with a glaring need and the resources to fill that need were present throughout the first round. Inexplicably, we failed to draft a PG and instead grabbed another SF. How is that even possible?!?!? Do you realize how well this team would be doing right now with one of those PG's from that draft? I can't understand the reasoning of some on this board.

This can't be explained away with team stats. It was a mistake pure and simple. Paul/Deron/Felton/Jack were/are the answers to our continuing problems at PG. We had the chance to groom a high quality PG to grow with this young team and we blew it.

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It was a gigantic mistake and I think "overthinking it" best represents the nature of the mistake (in the same manner "underthinking" the choice of SW in large part by not even trying out the best prospects).

I'm confused also.

Just like there are people here who will one minute claim BK will never draft SW because he's not a BK-type player and not the BPA and that doing so rather than drafting the "perfect backcourt compliment to JJ" in Roy would be the biggest mistake he could make and then when he does draft SW, claim that it was somehow a BK-minded move, that SW was a perfect selection, and that Roy wasn't a perfect compliment to JJ...there are people who will insist that FOR THE HAWKS Marvin was the right draft pick. It takes an F-ed up mind to continue to think we're winning the war in Iraq and some of the same "truthiness" (Webster's word of the year) applies here when insisting MW will be better. He's got to be one hell-of-alot better if it means we lose JS or JC and never get the franchise Pg we need.

W

[VarsitySlacker]

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I always wondered why the PG position is so hard to fill (not that I disagree.) After all, isn't the potential pool of NBA players who are 5'10"-6-3" much bigger than the potential pool of NBA players who are taller?

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To be a PG it requires a certain mindset. Not only do you have to produce, but you have to be able to set your teammates up to produce. Also, you have to be able to have superb ball control, because the ball is in your hands more than anyone.

The same reason Team USA was criticized in the playoffs is the reason we don't see more PGs. Everyone wants to be a finisher, to make the highlight reels. PG is not as glamorous of a position, so not as many people work on passing and ball control (Unless it's that "killa crossover")

[Guest Walter]

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I always wondered why the PG position is so hard to fill (not that I disagree.) After all, isn't the potential pool of NBA players who are 5'10"-6-3" much bigger than the potential pool of NBA players who are taller?

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And sheer numbers of 5'10" to 6'3" players may make for more competition at the Pg position, but they also make for a higher standard, meaning you have to find players that measure up to the standard. And as far as height goes, there are alot of Salim's out there, or rather short 2 guards. Height isn't the issue here.

I would argue that any position that is not book-ended by another position, be it C or Pg is harder to fill. There's no possibility of subbing "up" a position for a Pg or "down" a position for a C.

W

[KB21]

I knew Atlanta would take Marvin the entire time. He is a Billy Knight type of player, and the situation the Hawks were in at that time wouldn't allow them to pass on a guy with the kind of star potential that Marvin has. When you have the chance to get a superstar player in the draft, you take it. Had Joe Johnson already been in the fold, then I think the Hawks may have been able to afford passing on Marvin Williams for Deron Williams.

[drzachary]

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I always wondered why the PG position is so hard to fill (not that I disagree.) After all, isn't the potential pool of NBA players who are 5'10"-6-3" much bigger than the potential pool of NBA players who are taller?

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And sheer numbers of 5'10" to 6'3" players may make for more competition at the Pg position, but they also make for a higher standard, meaning you have to find players that measure up to the standard. And as far as height goes, there are alot of Salim's out there, or rather short 2 guards. Height isn't the issue here.

I would argue that any position that is not book-ended by another position, be it C or Pg is harder to fill. There's no possibility of subbing "up" a position for a Pg or "down" a position for a C.

W

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Your book-end argument is spot on. I run into that same thing on whatifsports.com all the time when recruiting for my hoops dynasty team.

[SmooveTheFuture]

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I knew Atlanta would take Marvin the entire time. He is a Billy Knight type of player, and the situation the Hawks were in at that time wouldn't allow them to pass on a guy with the kind of star potential that Marvin has. When you have the chance to get a superstar player in the draft, you take it. Had Joe Johnson already been in the fold, then I think the Hawks may have been able to afford passing on Marvin Williams for Deron Williams.

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[SmooveTheFuture]

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I knew Atlanta would take Marvin the entire time. He is a Billy Knight type of player, and the situation the Hawks were in at that time wouldn't allow them to pass on a guy with the kind of star potential that Marvin has. When you have the chance to get a superstar player in the draft, you take it. Had Joe Johnson already been in the fold, then I think the Hawks may have been able to afford passing on Marvin Williams for Deron Williams.

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What situtaion was that???? drafting 4 SFs in the draft prior to that one.... If you are saying our hole At SF was bigger then at point guard your nuts. If Marvin is anything short of a mega superstar this pick was a total flop.

[TheDude]

I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there).

As far as numbers go, here ya go.

2005 draft, shoulda woulda couldas:

Fran Vazquez

Yaroslav Korolev

Antoine Wright

Maxiel

drafted over players like Hakim Warrick and David Lee

2004 draft, shoulda woulda couldas:

shaun livingston over devin harris

luke jackson (10th pick) over everyone below him such as josh smith, jr smith, jameer nelson, al jefferson

2003 draft, should woulda couldas:

Darko over Anthony, Bosh, and Wade

moral of story, GM's aren't going to be perfect every time. But if they are solid to very good and don't do something moronic like pick Renaldo Balkmon that high, then they aren't bad. If anything BK has been AT THE VERY LEAST one of the better drafting GMs in the league. Paul came into the league and tore it up beyond EVERY SINGLE GM'S EXPECTATIONS, even the couple that might have drafted him over Marvin.

This so stupid that the media and fans keep talking about this. Get over it! This does not define our team nor does it define the skill level or success that BK has had.

[Diesel]

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Let me put it out there... [Re: Buzzard]

#89739 - 07/12/05 05:45 AM

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I think Marvin will be the second coming of Lamar Odom without the drugs...

He will be a very skilled player but not a player with the personality to carry a team. I just don't see the superstar mentality in Marvin.

I still believe that Deron will be as good if not better than Kidd, especially in UTAH. IN Utah, Deron will be put in the same system that Stockton played in and the difference between Deron and Kidd is defense and FG%.

I still believe that Paul will be ROY and if he remains Durableenough he will show better than Howard and Okafor last year. I think Paul will be the first 18-20 ppg rookie that has played since Lebron.

Mark it down, take a picture remember it!

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Click here

[Diesel]

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Re: I think his concerns are completely valid [Re: Buzzard]

#90008 -

07/13/05 08:21 AM

The reason I do that and am right is because

We know much more about Deron and Paul than Marvin. I have seen Deron/Paul play under pressure against the best teams and step up. Marvin has not or atleast haven't stepped up.

I can make a more informed decision with more information.

Yet people here are quick to claim MWill better than guys like Paul/Deron... When we know nothing about MWill.. not really.

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[AtLaS]

Marvin wasn't THAT far ahead of Paul and Deron. I agree most GM's had Marvin over them, but it was based on potential alone, he was pretty much unproven in college.

You don't draft another SF when you already had 2 good young ones like Chill and Smith (AND Diaw), not to mention we still had Harrington. And especially considering our GLARING need at PG.

I just don't see how it's so inconceivable that Paul wouldn't be a good player. I admit I wasn't that high on Deron, I actually really liked Felton too. But Paul had a good shot, was a great passer, is super quick, and was a league leader in steals.

It's not like Marvin had a Melo like freshman year, he came off the bench and scored 10 ppg, Mike Mercer did that last year. I agree he has a pretty good shot and the TOOLS to be a great player, but he was based on potential alone and we already had SO much of that on our roster.

BTW I don't think that most other GM's would have drafted Marvin over Paul if they were in BK's situation. I remember RIGHT AFTER the draft people were questioning the pick. Almost EVERY mock draft I saw had us picking Paul. I also remember an interview with Paul and he even THOUGHT he was going to Atlanta because he had a great workout here. Marvin, on the other hand, came in almost an inch shorter than reported and was out of shape when he worked out.

All that being said, I like Marvin and am rooting for him to be great, and I also know that it is expected for him to take a few years to realize his potential. But at this point it was a bad pick.

[Diesel]

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A+ You must be kidding? [Re: emeans]

#86493 - 06/29/05 05:20 AM

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BK did the same thing that Rob Babcock did. Babcock gets shyt from everyone and you want to throw a party for BK...

We didn't fill any need. NOT 1.

The C for this year is still Drobs.

The Pf for this year is still Al.

We are in the same situation as before... With Marvin Williams playing the role of Antoine Walker... And I believe that Antoine Walker is better.

Salim Stoudamire. Too small for the pros. NOT a PG. Stoudamire is JT all over again except he's more tempermental and he has less natural PG skills.

A+???

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[Diesel]

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No... Woody is the scapegoat. [Re: Lascar78]

#84592 - 06/23/05 06:38 AM

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This year it's Marvin Williams. Next year it's Rudy Gay.

What's going to happen when Deron Williams and Paul Blow up and become mega stars?

For argument sakes... Let's say that MWill does fulfill his potential. BUt let's also say that Paul and Williams are right there with him at the allstar game because they are superstars...

What would there be to say about our franchise.

FAcy is not producing many good PGs...

After this draft, I don't see any great PGs coming down the pike...

We will have the next....Lamar Odom but we will not have a PG that can lead.

How silly will this team look with a great core of Sfs and no PG or better yet, Lue as the starting PG.

If I were Woodson, I would be concerned because he's the skapegoat for BK's whims.

I think Smoovefan makes a good point above... we cannot just continue to take the best Sf present just because he's there. At some point we have to examine our other needs. We came into this draft needing:

A C, A PG, A Shooter, or a Power player...

Marvin Williams is none of that. .. Hell, we don't even know if he's a good defender...

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[AtLaS]

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This is just a poor argument. Other than Paul, who on the Hornets can pass the ball? Who can create their own shot? That alone explains the low ppg and fg%.

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Peja Stojakovic, David West, Jannero Pargo, Bobby Jackson, and the rest of the guys are the athletes that most point guards want. Chandler, Bobby Simmons, Armstrong, Butler, and Mason.

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This is laughable. When has Peja ever created his own shot or made a pass? Chris Paul MADE David West. Bobby Jackson can't pass either, he's always been known as a shoot first pg. Did you really mention all the rest of those guys? Chandler might be the worst offensive center in the NBA.

[VarsitySlacker]

Diesel, one thing I've never understood.

Why do you reply to your own posts? Is there some misbegotten feature on HawkSquawk that only allows you one quote per post? Or is it that your own ego just likes to see your avatar and name two times for every one you see for the rest of the posters?

Yes, we all know that you favored Deron and then Paul. We know, because you've tooted that horn as many times as your possibly could. Conviniently, I don't recall seeing much in the way of Deron last year, though, when he looked like a middling prospect. But in his sophomore year, imagine that, he broke out. And now, here you are again, shoving [censored] into the face of everyone not once, but four times in the span of ten minutes. Not to reply to your detractors, but to see your name over and over again. Unfortunately for you, AtlaS posted in the middle of Dieselmania, so the full effect of your ego was not felt.

Get ahold of yourself.

[hawkman]

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Marvin wasn't THAT far ahead of Paul and Deron. I agree most GM's had Marvin over them, but it was based on potential alone, he was pretty much unproven in college.

You don't draft another SF when you already had 2 good young ones like Chill and Smith (AND Diaw), not to mention we still had Harrington. And especially considering our GLARING need at PG.

I just don't see how it's so inconceivable that Paul wouldn't be a good player. I admit I wasn't that high on Deron, I actually really liked Felton too. But Paul had a good shot, was a great passer, is super quick, and was a league leader in steals.

It's not like Marvin had a Melo like freshman year, he came off the bench and scored 10 ppg, Mike Mercer did that last year. I agree he has a pretty good shot and the TOOLS to be a great player, but he was based on potential alone and we already had SO much of that on our roster.

BTW I don't think that most other GM's would have drafted Marvin over Paul if they were in BK's situation. I remember RIGHT AFTER the draft people were questioning the pick. Almost EVERY mock draft I saw had us picking Paul. I also remember an interview with Paul and he even THOUGHT he was going to Atlanta because he had a great workout here. Marvin, on the other hand, came in almost an inch shorter than reported and was out of shape when he worked out.

All that being said, I like Marvin and am rooting for him to be great, and I also know that it is expected for him to take a few years to realize his potential. But at this point it was a bad pick.

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Exactly. I hate the fact that we had this philosophy to draft purely on potential at what has to be the most inconvenient time in our franchise's recent history. We needed a PG. We worked out a PG. That PG had the best workout of any prospect that we brought in. Then we drafted the player who had an "OK" workout, but seemed to have "potential". I don't care what any talking head had to say about this draft, BK...WE NEEDED A POINT GUARD!!!! A point guard came in highly decorated and heralded and then proceeded to ace the workout. That same point guard was available in the draft when it was your time to pick. What do you do??? Duh, pick another SF because we we want to, and I quote, "deal from a position of strength". UNBELIEVEABLE!!! Heck, for the sake of argument, let's throw out this whole Marv vs. CP3 thing altogether. That still leaves us with 3...count 'em...3 point guards that could have run this team for the next ten years. How in the world do you blow that and call yourself a GM?!?!?! This whole Marv vs. Paul thing isn't even an argument. It shouldn't even be up for debate until Marv does better than the 8ppg and 5reb's he averaged last season. As it stands now, it was a mistake and any debate otherwise is laughable. With that said I hope Marvin becomes all that everyone hopes he will become because I sincerely believe the Hawks' future as a franchise is tied to that pick.

[hawkman]

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I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there).

As far as numbers go, here ya go.

2005 draft, shoulda woulda couldas:

Fran Vazquez

Yaroslav Korolev

Antoine Wright

Maxiel

drafted over players like Hakim Warrick and David Lee

2004 draft, shoulda woulda couldas:

shaun livingston over devin harris

luke jackson (10th pick) over everyone below him such as josh smith, jr smith, jameer nelson, al jefferson

2003 draft, should woulda couldas:

Darko over Anthony, Bosh, and Wade

moral of story, GM's aren't going to be perfect every time. But if they are solid to very good and don't do something moronic like pick

Renaldo Balkman

that high, then they aren't bad. If anything BK has been AT THE VERY LEAST one of the better drafting GMs in the league. Paul came into the league and tore it up beyond EVERY SINGLE GM'S EXPECTATIONS, even the couple that might have drafted him over Marvin.

This so stupid that the media and fans keep talking about this. Get over it! This does not define our team nor does it define the skill level or success that BK has had.

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Hey! I like Renaldo Balkman. Great BBall IQ. Kinda reminds me of a poor man's Scottie Pippen

[KB21]

That line of thinking is why Portland drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. You don't ignore superstar ability just to fill a need.

[Peoriabird]

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This is laughable. When has Peja ever created his own shot or made a pass?

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Why would you need a player to create his own shot with the great Chris Paul as your point guard?

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Chris Paul MADE David West.

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Oh really? Then why were the Hornets undefeated in games Chris Paul didn't play in last year?

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Bobby Jackson can't pass either, he's always been known as a shoot first pg.

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Why are you pointing this out? Do you think it help your argument whatever that may be?

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Did you really mention all the rest of those guys? Chandler might be the worst offensive center in the NBA.

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I mentioned the other athletes on the team because that is basically what we have...A lot of athletes that are not very good at creating their own shot. I thought that was the whole argument behind drafting Chris Paul!