The uncomfortable truth

[Sothron]

Gutzy, go ask teh Sixers fans on realgm.com what they think of Iverson's defense. They will tell you he is a bad defensive player.

[exodus]

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Well Iverson supporting cast has sucked his whole career and this year

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There is nobody on this team other than JJ that has EVER AVERAGED 14 PPG FOR A SEASON! Our number 2 scorer is a guy who has been a backup his whole career.

And you are saying Iverson has never had a supporting cast this good? You are definitely a few fries short of a happy meal if you think that.

[gutz]

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Gutzy, go ask teh Sixers fans on realgm.com what they think of Iverson's defense. They will tell you he is a bad defensive player.

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Sothron you pal Exodus just posted some replies from the Sixer board that said IVerson's defense isn't great but not that bad. Read the above posts. Either way I think Iversons incredible offensive game makes up for a few shortcomings he has on defense right? Paul, Nash and so on are worse defenders than Iverson and have half the offensive game he does so why in the hell do you all keep harping that he plays no defense? Give it a rest already!

[VarsitySlacker]

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Exodus that is still a decent good shooting percentage for someone who HAS HAD to be the whole offense on his team. Again Iverson has NEVER had a player of JJ's caliber alongside him to play with. DO you expect him to shoot 50% with no other proven scorer on his team? If Iverson was on the Hawks his assist numbers would go up even more also allowing him to take better shots since JJ commands respect on the offensive end as well. Do you people not understand that?

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Out of the entire NBA, the following players average 17 points a game and shoot below 44%:

Mike Bibby

Ben Gordon

Tracy McGrady

Ray Allen

Allen Iverson

Gilbert Arenas

Below 42%:

Allen Iverson

Tracy McGrady

Mike Bibby

Below Iverson:

Mike Bibby

That's out of 42 people. Are you going to tell me 40 of the top scorers only shoot better than Iverson because they have better backup options? Because I'm pretty sure that Michael Redd, LeBron James, Paul Pierce, and Monta Ellis would disagree. Kevin Martin would have a serious case. And that's just the guards.

Going down the list of leaders in shots attempted, you have to go down to Number 35 (again, Mike Bibby) to find someone who shoots worse than Iverson (Number 1)

Iverson is a prolific scorer, I'm not going to argue that point. And if you want to have someone who can pick up a team of role-players and carry them on his back, then he's the guy. We don't need someone to carry us on their back, however, we just need someone who can knock the other team on their asses.

Edit: Josh "1 for 10 on three pointers" Smith almost has a better shooting percentage than Iverson does.

Also, I failed to mention this already, but Tyronne Lue is currently the leader on the Hawks for assists. Is he the best distributer? No, but when he passes the ball, someone manages to make the shot enough times to get him credit. And, yes, Iverson has control of the ball approximately twice as much as Lue does.

No, I'm not saying that Lue is Iverson. But they do have similar games. Undersized guard stands at the top of the key, dribbles, and drives in to shoot a layup or passes out when there is no hope. Mix in the occasional missed jump shot. AI is approximately 100 times better at it than Lue, but they do have similar games.

[gutz]

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Well Iverson supporting cast has sucked his whole career and this year

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There is nobody on this team other than JJ that has EVER AVERAGED 14 PPG FOR A SEASON! Our number 2 scorer is a guy who has been a backup his whole career.

And you are saying Iverson has never had a supporting cast this good? You are definitely a few fries short of a happy meal if you think that.

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Oh you seemed to have forgot that we are in our 3rd yr of rebuilding Exodus!! hahahah LOL . Of course there isn't any scorer on this team other than JJ because they are all 23 and younger, underdeveloped, and incredibly inconsistent. So of course we don't have any consistent 14pt scorer yet but by the end of the year you can bet on that Smoove and Marvin will be averaging closer to that mark. Give me a break. You guys are a joke with this Iverson talk. You can't win

[gutz]

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Exodus that is still a decent good shooting percentage for someone who HAS HAD to be the whole offense on his team. Again Iverson has NEVER had a player of JJ's caliber alongside him to play with. DO you expect him to shoot 50% with no other proven scorer on his team? If Iverson was on the Hawks his assist numbers would go up even more also allowing him to take better shots since JJ commands respect on the offensive end as well. Do you people not understand that?

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Out of the entire NBA, the following players average 17 points a game and shoot below 44%:

Mike Bibby

Ben Gordon

Tracy McGrady

Ray Allen

Allen Iverson

Gilbert Arenas

Below 42%:

Allen Iverson

Tracy McGrady

Mike Bibby

Below Iverson:

Mike Bibby

That's out of 42 people. Are you going to tell me 40 of the top scorers only shoot better than Iverson because they have better backup options? Because I'm pretty sure that Michael Redd, LeBron James, Paul Pierce, and Monta Ellis would disagree. Kevin Martin would have a serious case. And that's just the guards.

Going down the list of leaders in shots attempted, you have to go down to Number 35 (again, Mike Bibby) to find someone who shoots worse than Iverson (Number 1)

Iverson is a prolific scorer, I'm not going to argue that point. And if you want to have someone who can pick up a team of role-players and carry them on his back, then he's the guy. We don't need someone to carry us on their back, however, we just need someone who can knock the other team on their asses.

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So I guess Arenas sucks too huh? He is shooting 42% on the year with tons of better players around him than Iverson EVER had. I guess Mcgrady isn't all that good either then huh? Your talking about 1% point here people. I think most of you can agree that no team has really EVER made the NBA Finals with only one star player except Iverson in 2000. Arenas, McGrady, Allen and so on AT LEAST have one other legit #2 scoring option. Again quit harping on this ridiculous arguement that has no merit. Its not that huge of a deal to hate on Iverson. I'm not even saying we need to get him but you guys are hating on him for stupid reasons. If anything I would hate on his attitude not his play.

[VarsitySlacker]

Before someone calls me out on it, I did not mean to put Monta Ellis on the list I had above. He does have better scoring options behind him. And 6% higher FG%

[Johnnybravo4]

You would have to base that analysis based upon the number of shots they take per game. Brett Farve is known for throwing a lot of interceptions. He also throws a lot of touchdowns. Iverson's shooting percentage is a product of the number of shots he takes per game plus the degree of difficulty in the shots he takes. Unlike Joe Johnson or other larger guards he doesn't get his points close to the rim. When he goes into the paint it is to draw fouls. If you factor in his free throw percentage into the equation he actually shoots a higher percent.

[Johnnybravo4]

And I guess Nique sucked too huh?

[exodus]

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Oh you seemed to have forgot that we are in our 3rd yr of rebuilding Exodus!

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Exactly. Which is why JJ's supporting cast ISN'T THAT GOOD.

You think there is anyone on this team who can average 20 ppg, which Webber did last year?

It is absolutely insane to think that Iverson has played 10 years with a worse supporting cast than JJ has now.

[VarsitySlacker]

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So I guess Arenas sucks too huh? He is shooting 42% on the year with tons of better players around him than Iverson EVER had. I guess Mcgrady isn't all that good either then huh? Your talking about 1% point here people. Again quit harping on this ridiculous arguement that has no merit.

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"If you need someone to put a team on their back..."

Arenas is a prolific scorer, yes. I LOVE Gilbert (If only because he's crazy) but if you follow his games rather than his scoring average, he has enough 3 for 21 games to absolutely murder his team. And Tracy McGrady is, for better or for worse, not the same player he was in Orlando. His knees are shot, his back is shot, and Houston fans are sick of him and his contract. Houston banks most of their wins on the play of Yao Ming.

And it's not a 1% point. I gave a 3% point. Allen Iverson averages 1,910 shots per year. That's an additional 57.3 shots made over the course of the season, which assuming they're all two point shots, is an additional 115 points over the course of the season. Is that only about another shot per game? Perhaps, but a Hawks fan of all people should know the value of those extra two points. Furthermore, those two points make the difference between a poor shooter (Iverson) and a below average one (44%). If you were to bring him up to Johnson's shooting percentage, well...I'll let you do the math.

[gutz]

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Oh you seemed to have forgot that we are in our 3rd yr of rebuilding Exodus!

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Exactly. Which is why JJ's supporting cast ISN'T THAT GOOD.

You think there is anyone on this team who can average 20 ppg, which Webber did last year?

It is absolutely insane to think that Iverson has played 10 years with a worse supporting cast than JJ has now.

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Okay so who on the Sixers is a viable #2 scoring option or ever has been with Iverson? Webber is awful dude. I don't care if he averaged 20pts last year that just shows that Iverson isn't all that bad then and isn't the ballhog you say he is. Webber is not where near a star anymore and is washed up. JJ is a SG as well and doesn't get to the line near as many times as Iverson does. IF JJ can keep shooting 50% ALL Year then maybe you have a point but until then your arguement is clueless and irrevelant.

[gutz]

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So I guess Arenas sucks too huh? He is shooting 42% on the year with tons of better players around him than Iverson EVER had. I guess Mcgrady isn't all that good either then huh? Your talking about 1% point here people. Again quit harping on this ridiculous arguement that has no merit.

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"If you need someone to put a team on their back..."

Arenas is a prolific scorer, yes. I LOVE Gilbert (If only because he's crazy) but if you follow his games rather than his scoring average, he has enough 3 for 21 games to absolutely murder his team. And Tracy McGrady is, for better or for worse, not the same player he was in Orlando. His knees are shot, his back is shot, and Houston fans are sick of him and his contract. Houston banks most of their wins on the play of Yao Ming.

And it's not a 1% point. I gave a 3% point. Allen Iverson averages 1,910 shots per year. That's an additional 57.3 shots made over the course of the season, which assuming they're all two point shots, is an additional 115 points over the course of the season. Is that only about another shot per game? Perhaps, but a Hawks fan of all people should know the value of those extra two points. Furthermore, those two points make the difference between a poor shooter (Iverson) and a below average one (44%). If you were to bring him up to Johnson's shooting percentage, well...I'll let you do the math.

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My WHOLE point here is that Iverson would not need to take so many shots with JJ alongside him. He can actually TRUST JJ to get the job done and put the ball in the basket. I would bet you a million dollars that IVerson would shoot a better percentage here alongside JJ. Thats my point! Have you not realized that? Good lord guys. Get a grip

[exodus]

JJ has never been to the All-Star game and Iverson is a HOF player. Surely if JJ can do it for a month than Iverson can.

I told you where to find the game logs for every game iverson has played in the NBA. You will not find one month where iverson shot 50%.

And believe me i will save this thread and laugh at you when the season is over.

[VarsitySlacker]

Number One: First and foremost. Nique averaged 46% shooting in his NBA career. This is after his post-Hawk years where he was not a great player and exponentially got worse shooting percentages (424-417-379) (He also averaged two less shots per game than Iverson). I'm not quite sure how he compares to Iverson, but according to you Tim Duncan and Dikembe Mutombo are comparable to Iverson.

Number Two: Brett Farve, over his career, has averaged a 62% completion rate. He has thrown 413 touchdowns to 267 interceptions. That's about 1.65 TD:Interceptions. This is still exceptionally good, especially for the longetivity that he has endured.

I'm not quite sure how you compare football and basketball, since they are fundamentally different, but assuming you're taking into account the clutch factor, fine. Brett Farve makes big plays to win big games. Allen Iverson hasn't been in a big game in three years, a TRULY big game in 6. And while he made the points, he was relying on someone else to clean up after him.

Brett Farve gets respect beyond his numbers because he wins championships. How many championships as Iverson won?

[gutz]

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JJ has never been to the All-Star game and Iverson is a HOF player. Surely if JJ can do it for a month than Iverson can.

I told you where to find the game logs for every game iverson has played in the NBA. You will not find one month where iverson shot 50%.

And believe me i will save this thread and laugh at you when the season is over.

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your the one that wanted to use JJ's shooting percentage not me. I think its all clear to us that JJ will be going to the Allstar game this year and many more to come in his YOUNG career. I honestly don't care if Iverson has ever averaged 50% shooting. HARDLY any guards do dude much less the whole year especially guards like Iverson who are forced to take a lot of shots because they have no second options on their team. Thats not my point! My point was that you guys are not realizing that Iverson would not need to take 30+ shots a game with an adequate #2 scorer like JJ alongside him. Hence his scoring might go down a little but his FG% would go up tremendously. Since that is all you guys are critiqueing from Iverson's game is his FG% when guys like Arenas and McGrady are shooting the same % with way better talent around them. ROFLMAO

[VarsitySlacker]

The previous post, obviously, was for Johnny.

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My WHOLE point here is that Iverson would not need to take so many shots with JJ alongside him. He can actually TRUST JJ to get the job done and put the ball in the basket. I would bet you a million dollars that IVerson would shoot a better percentage here alongside JJ. Thats my point! Have you not realized that? Good lord guys. Get a grip

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I tend to think I've been very reasonable throughout arguing the point. I certainly don't need to get a grip.

While Iverson has never had Joe Johnson in the backcourt, he did have:

1998: Jerry Stackhouse: 16 PPG, 45% FG

2002: Derrick Coleman: 15 PPG, 45% FG

2003: Keith Van Horn: 16 PPG, 48% FG

2004: Glenn Robinson: 21 PPG, 45% FG

Are they players quite the caliber of Joe Johnson? No. But they are scorers who did not have a problem putting the ball in the basket, and could potentially have been even better had Iverson gotten the ball to them more. (Coleman averaged 15 shots less than Iverson. Van Horn averaged 11 less. Even Big Dog, who never saw a shot he didn't like, had 4 less.) And even WITH a legit second scoring option in Big Dog (Who, loathe him as I may, the man could put points on the board), still shot a putrid .38 percent.

I don't know how many more times I have to say it: Allen Iverson is the guy who wants to take the team on his back. He gets a bum rap for being a bad teammate - This is a lie. He pushes everyone around him, and challenges the team to be better. But HE has to be the one who is in control. This has been evident in Philadelphia, was evident in the Olympics, and would be evident in Atlanta. This is Joe's team. Iverson should be his number two, not the other way around. You and I both know this wouldn't happen, and it's not worth it for the team for Iverson to take over.

[AHF]

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Number Two: Brett Farve, over his career, has averaged a 62% completion rate. He has thrown 413 touchdowns to 267 interceptions. That's about 1.65 TD:Interceptions. This is still exceptionally good, especially for the longetivity that he has endured.

I'm not quite sure how you compare football and basketball, since they are fundamentally different, but assuming you're taking into account the clutch factor, fine. Brett Farve makes big plays to win big games. Allen Iverson hasn't been in a big game in three years, a TRULY big game in 6. And while he made the points, he was relying on someone else to clean up after him.

Brett Farve gets respect beyond his numbers because he wins championships. How many championships as Iverson won?

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More to the point - Farve is no longer a standout QB in the NFL. No team with a good QB would trade that player for Favre with the way he plays now. Coaches don't want their players throwing that many INTs if they are trying to contend. Favre is still starting because (1) he is a legend; (2) he is chasing the TD record; and (3) the Packers' only other option sucks terribly, meaning there is really no alternative. If the Packers had a Philip Rivers, Tom Brady, etc. on their team, Brett would have said aloha a couple seasons ago.

[gutz]

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The previous post, obviously, was for Johnny.

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My WHOLE point here is that Iverson would not need to take so many shots with JJ alongside him. He can actually TRUST JJ to get the job done and put the ball in the basket. I would bet you a million dollars that IVerson would shoot a better percentage here alongside JJ. Thats my point! Have you not realized that? Good lord guys. Get a grip

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I tend to think I've been very reasonable throughout arguing the point. I certainly don't need to get a grip.

While Iverson has never had Joe Johnson in the backcourt, he did have:

1998: Jerry Stackhouse: 16 PPG, 45% FG

2002: Derrick Coleman: 15 PPG, 45% FG

2003: Keith Van Horn: 16 PPG, 48% FG

2004: Glenn Robinson: 21 PPG, 45% FG

Are they players quite the caliber of Joe Johnson? No. But they are scorers who did not have a problem putting the ball in the basket, and could potentially have been even better had Iverson gotten the ball to them more. (Coleman averaged 15 shots less than Iverson. Van Horn averaged 11 less. Even Big Dog, who never saw a shot he didn't like, had 4 less.) And even WITH a legit second scoring option in Big Dog (Who, loathe him as I may, the man could put points on the board), still shot a putrid .38 percent.

I don't know how many more times I have to say it: Allen Iverson is the guy who wants to take the team on his back. He gets a bum rap for being a bad teammate - This is a lie. He pushes everyone around him, and challenges the team to be better. But HE has to be the one who is in control. This has been evident in Philadelphia, was evident in the Olympics, and would be evident in Atlanta. This is Joe's team. Iverson should be his number two, not the other way around. You and I both know this wouldn't happen, and it's not worth it for the team for Iverson to take over.

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Yeah Stackhouse at the time he played with Iverson wanted to be Iverson, Van Horn just sucks, Coleman and Big Dog played with him towards the end of their pathetic careers so if thats the best he has played with, it more than proves my point that Iverson has never played with anyone NEAR the caliber of JJ. But you are right that he does want to be the main focus of the Sixers and rightfully so. But I disagree that he would come here and say this is my team. It would be both JJ and Iverson's team. He would notice that the minute he stepped on the court with JJ and realized his talent. Your just making assumptions really. A change of scenery might be all he needs and of course another star to play with. But we will never know so its really pointless argueing about it.

[exodus]

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My point was that you guys are not realizing that Iverson would not need to take 30+ shots a game with an adequate #2 scorer like JJ alongside him.

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He doesn't need to take that many shots NOW, since the team as a whole is shooting much better than him.