please share your thoughts on fixing the Hawks

[gsuteke]

that is assuming you think there are some changes that need to be made. if you don't believe there are any then feel free to articulate that also.

Please, let's use this thread as an opportunity to exchange ideas as opposed to a chance to flame one another. if you do not agree with someone else's idea please convey that through posting an alternate scenario.

Remember there are three possible correct answers to any disagreement between two individuals. The answer you think is right, they answer they think is right, and more often than not the answer neither have you have thought of yet:

i wish Billy could find a way to trade for a defensive minded center, even if he were an inch or two short which made him a bit more affordable. Zaza let Eddie Curry get position last night at will. Ren doesn't have much left in the tank. Woody refuses to play Shelden much at all.

from the guard position the Hawks aren't getting the ball pushed and in the half court they are stagnant. the hawks are in need of a traditional run the team, shoot first play defense second tell people where they need to be on the floor 3rd shoot 8th way down on the list. it seems like there are no plays being run. set a screen for Joe and let him shoot, pass the ball to Joe and watch him back his man down for a turnaround, pass the ball to Joe and watch him kick it back out to someone for a three. do you think Woodson calls those plays "1, 2, 3" as the Hawks are bringing the ball up or do the players kind of figure out which of the three to do in the half court set?

Billy Knight has taken alot of heat in regards to his draft record. while i may not agree with some of it it's still there. ultimately either Billy has shown he's loyal to a fault to Mike Woodson or perhaps he feels like Woodson is his security blanket.

if it's not Woodson's fault this thing isn't morphing into what has been envisioned then it's a Billy Knight thing.

firing Woodson would signal a shift in philosophy within the organization. firing Billy Knight would signal another full blown rebuilding campaign as another GM would surely trade the desireable assets the Hawks have outside of Joe Johnson to get his own style of player in Atlanta.

I think the best scenario would be to concentrate on putting some dollars into a point guard or center, whether that is through drafting those two positions exclusively, signing free agents at those positions, or better yet both. while i am not condoning the firing of Mike Woodson just yet due to a number of extenuating circumstances on the club I'm sure exist that I just don't have knowledge of due to lack of access, I believe a hard look at Mike Woodson and his assistants is also in order.

[AHF]

I have some thoughts but would really want to see where this team is when Chills, Marvin and JJ are all back healthy so we have the team that management envisioned and Woodson expects to coach. Also, I cannot believe that Speedy will continue to look as bad as he has so far.

Things look bleak right now with JJ out and they are likely only going to get worse in the immediate future. We have a very difficult schedule the remainder of this month and no clear date our star will return.

In terms of personnel, we still need a long-term answer at PG and more interior defense. Solomon looks like he may help long-term but he is too raw and too light right now. Lo has been a real dissappointment as someone who you figured would be productive for 10mpg off the bench. Zaza is a quality big man whose defense will hopefully improve but he isn't there yet and likely will never be a real plus defender. We should keep our eyes open and aggressively pursue some Reggie Evans, Etan Thomas, etc. type backup big men to add to our depth and toughness in the paint.

At PG, we need to draft a young guy to groom for 3-4 years down the line (or sooner!). It is a shame we couldn't get Jack in the draft when we were trying to trade up for him and that we couldn't get someone like Rondo or Marcus Williams on the cheap. (I am not opening the door to the Paul/Deron/Marvin line so please don't bother stating the obvious for fear of running this thread off track). I do think we will need someone like those guys in the near future. We should be well positioned to get one of the mid-round PGs that have been seen in recent years like Tony Parker, Jamaal Tinsley, Marcus Banks, Leandro Barbosa, Jameer Nelson, etc.

At SG we are obviously set.

At SF & PF I think we are set with Marvin, Josh Smith and Shelden. Chills providing depth at the G and F spots is great bench strength.

I think some of the issues we have can only be fixed by father-time (for example, Josh Smith will be twice the defender he is now in another 3 years, IMO).

As far as coaching, we need to make a decision this year and either commit to Woodson or go in another direction but the ownership issues really hurt us in this regard. It will be impossible to get a proven coach in Atlanta until the ownership situation is resolved. This will also continue to hurt us in FA - both in terms of $$ available and in terms of interest from FAs.

I think we will have more clarity on the team's true shape in mid-February of this year.

[Diesel]

Seeing that the Hawks have ownership difficulties I don't think many coaches would want to come here for fear of being fired. However, there's a few who would come because they have something to prove... I would get one of those..

My coach would be Paul Westhead.

Westhead was the architecht of LA Showtime and one of the most high powered offenses ever made... It worked on Rebounding, outlet pass, continuous running.

Secondly, we need to clean some house...

Here's how I would clean house:

Ivey... Bye bye.

Lo Wright... Bye Bye.

Freije... Bye Bye.

I would pick up:

Keith Van Horn.

Milt Palacio.

Keon Clark (get your sniffing dogs)..

And our team would be built to run. We still won't stop anybody but our goal would be to run run run until they get tired...

Most NBA teams today are out of shape and cannot control the tempo of a game...

We already have the wing players and may have the shooters!

[Packfill]

1. I agree with AHF that we need a young dynamic point guard to develop as a future starter and someone who can immediately back-up Speedy. I would love Jack but realize he is not an option, if the Hawks can draft someone next year or get their hands on someone like Rondo, Marcus Williams or Jordan Farmar that would be great (trade Lue, Salim or both).

2. Need veteran defender down low - something Lorenzen was supposed to be. Not sure who that guy is but it needs to be someone who can set the tone defensively and show the young guys by example how it is done. Has to be someone that can actually play 20+ minutes a night. Woodson or whomever the coach is needs to bench Zaza, Smith, Sheldon or whomever if they don't d-up.

3. We probably need a new coach. No point in making a midseason move but I think if management really wants to take this team to the next level a new coach is a must for next season.

4. If Speedy is going to be the starting point guard then the team needs a shooter not named Joe Johnson. Salim does not make sense because he really would only play in place of JJ or Speedy. What the team would really need is a forward that can shoot from the outside. I am not sure if Marvin, Josh or Josh is that guy.

5. Even though the team will still be young next year I see absolutely no reason why it should be considered an excuse for why the team is not winning next year. I repeat, next year, not this year. Childress, Smith, Marvin and Sheldon will all hopefully continue to improve beyond next year but they all will have had a decent amount of experience and should start realizing some of their potential.

[SmooveTheFuture]

The way this team is gonna improve is by letting the young guys lead this team with Joe Johnson. All our young guys need to touch the ball and get involved in the offense and defense. We should not have 9 year old veterans like Tyron Lue thinking he runs the team and shooting every time he gets it. This does nothing at all for the future of this team. We need to put the ball in the hands Of Smith, Marvin , Chill and Shelden and let them become players in this league. Let them get as many touches as possoble and play like a team. We are building this team around that core and we should play them that way. Im sure there will be ups and downs they will make mistakes but they will be more highs then lows Ill tell you that. Thats the only the way these guys will improve and be consistent night in and night out. The more these guys play and get inolved the better this team will be in the long run if were gonna lose games I dont want it to be by guys like Tyron Lue and Others playing big minutes shooting tons of shots for no reason. I have said it for months now this team will start to turn the corner when our young playes show big progress and start to lead this team with there on court play.

[TheDude]

Paint Defense- ZaZa actually seemed to start well in keeping Curry from getting in the paint but was not able to continue to do so. Maybe he is still too weak to continue to do that all game. His offensive game seems to falter more as the game goes on also. strange. Lo has been a disappointment because we all figured he's better than John Edwards so adding him and Shelden would solidify our paintD. But it hasnt. I agree with AHF that we need an Etan Thomas or Reggie Evans type rugged player to help. ZaZa is also still learning.

Point play- No matter what, we need a young point to groom. Speedy hasnt been as good as we hoped but honestly I see him getting better, especially on defensive end. Offensivly, he's trying to be aggressive but just isnt' hitting his shots

Scottie Pippen- We've got our Jordan. Will Marvin be our Pippen? Not sure but we need him to develop. We need some type of playmaker other than Joe. Joe's got the Iverson/Garnett complex- superstar with no help. Maybe Iverson is the Answer? (my only concern would be Marvin's devlopment)

I like Josh Smith. I don't mind him taking those 3 point shots if he's open. It's like Frazier said last night, he has to learn to hit those shots to raise his level as a player. As long as he is open. Keep up the hussle Josh.

We need to call offensive plays other than Go Joe! Maybe they are and the young folk aren't executing it correctly. I don't know but that HAS to get corrected.

and we just need some folk that can shoot

[exodus]

The Hawks have the same needs that they had last season, a pg ( who can play both ends) and a center who can play some D. They don't have to be great just better than average.

For example Jack/Farmar and Prz/Mihm would make this team look a lot different.

Unfortunately BK has backed himself into a corner by refusing to address these needs in the past, or by trying to plug holes with weak players. Now he is in a position where, in order to fill the holes at pg and center, he may have to trade someone that he wants to hold onto.

Portland needs a small forward and they have 3 guys playing center along with 2 pgs, Jack and Sergio. Laker fans seem to think Smush is garbage. However they like Lue. Farmer has basically taken over there. Mihm is out hurt and they seem to be doing well with Kwame/Bynum at C.

There could be a deal there somewhere.

[newkid]

A few thoughts:

After several years of observations, it should be clear to BK and the Spirit that Coach Woodson has limitations that'll render him the improper choice to lead this assemblage of players to the next level. His lessons (as it were) are either non-exist, or not resonating with the players. He and his staff haven't been successful in getting consistent team performances this season or last; he and his staff haven't been effective in getting some individuals to develop and display skill sets necessary to enrich the team; he and his coaches do not display the acumen needed to satisfactorily address a multitude of game situations. While the rationale (or excuse) of injured players is often handy, it seems quite apparent that even with all of our players healthy, Coach Woodson and his cadre must be replaced by a group more capable of the teaching, inspiring, and coaching that this young group needs. Not saying precisely WHEN it needs to happen; just that it clearly NEEDS to happen.

We've got some of the on-court ingredients we need to be a consistent winner, but it should be clear to all that we're missing some essential pieces. What's not clear is how effective this current group could be IF we had a more capable group of coaches. Can Speedy be the on-court pg orchestrator that we need? I doubt it, but how do we know given his health status thus far and a questionable coaching approach to the construction of our offense. If he isn't, we MUST fix the pg position THIS season if at all possible. That means we've gotta seriously consider the likelihood that we'll need to package at least one of our young forwards if we're to get a long-term REAL fix at pg.

Clearly BK hasn't fixed the hole in the middle, and it seems doubtful that there are realistic in-season opportunities to address this need. I wouldn't recommend rashness. One of our best chances of addressing this need is with the Indy pick. Not saying that we'll like what's there when we select, but we may find ourselves having to package the pick with an existing asset (or two) to acquire the pivot player this team needs.

Bottom line: fix the coaching situation soon, fix the point guard situation soon, and position ourselves to fix the center position either in the draft or in an off-season exchange with another team. Oh, and get Randolph Morris under contract BEFORE the end of the NBA season so that we'll have the option of packaging him in a deal unfettered by the requirement to not deal 'off-season' FA signees until mid-December.

[chillzatl]

I'm perfectly content to take a wait and see approach. It's obvious to me and anyone who employs rational thought that we are a solid team when we're healthy. Are we world beaters yet? No, but I don't expect us to be.

I prefer to avoid the "we should do this" comments until we have a healthy team. We've been competitive in most of our games despite having a long list of injured players who are key to what we are trying to do here.

While not having Joe the last few days is a major one. Not having Childress for the last few weeks is equally big. He was a good defender, rebounder, outside shooter and overall energy guy. You can't simply replace that on a team that doesn't have much veteran depth.

Not having Marvin for the entire season was also big because while he still had plenty to learn, he proved that he can be an guy who can create his own shot, both inside and out and also play good defense. We don't have anyone else on this roster who can do that.

Again, I'm content to let these guys come back adn then see what we have. I know that this team is nowhere near being complete. Trades will be made, free agents will be brought in and players will leave. I don't expect this team, as is, to compete for a championship and it's unrealistic for anyone to expect that. But I've seen enough to know that we have key pieces in place that should allow us to compete at that level in the future.

[exodus]

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I prefer to avoid the "we should do this" comments until we have a healthy team.

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Zaza and Lo have been healthy and they have sucked. No matter what goes on with the rest of the team this duo doesn't cut it at center.

[chillzatl]

I don't think anyone could realistically have expected much from Lo. When he was young he wasn't a stud player. Zaza is.. well, he's zaza...

[gsuteke]

the wait and see approach as articulated by many of you makes the most sense.

Diesel is right when he suggests that there are 3 to 4 players that should be removed or replaced with ones that will fit a tempo that the Hawks will be comfortable running, whatever that may be.

even with the wait and see approach there will be slight changes on the roster. i believe the C and PG will no doubt still need to be worked on for this to be a finished product. the Hawks should be able to use 2 draft picks this year to pick up a future starter and another project player like Solomon. the FA dollars could be spent on any number of players that will command MLE type money. if the owners are willing to go over the cap without getting into luxury tax territory they can still resign the young players on top of 2 new contracts.

Lastly once again how long does the team stick with Woody? is the team underperforming? I'd say probably not at 8-12 with the injuries they've dealt with. That being said are the players on the floor giving a spirited effort even if the team is shorthanded?

[newkid]

"Lastly once again how long does the team stick with Woody?"

In my view we stick with him only long enough to allow us to get Kareem Abdul-Jabbar down here to be either our interim or long-term head coach. Get it done NOW BK.

[AHF]

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"Lastly once again how long does the team stick with Woody?"

In my view we stick with him only long enough to allow us to get Kareem Abdul-Jabbar down here to be either our interim or long-term head coach. Get it done NOW BK.

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What makes you tink Kareem would cut it as an NBA head coach? He hasn't even been an assistant at the NBA level and has a reputation for having issues with his communication skills (particularly with fans, media, etc.)

[Popeye]

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The way this team is gonna improve is by letting the young guys lead this team with Joe Johnson. All our young guys need to touch the ball and get involved in the offense and defense. We should not have 9 year old veterans like Tyron Lue thinking he runs the team and shooting every time he gets it. This does nothing at all for the future of this team. We need to put the ball in the hands Of Smith, Marvin , Chill and Shelden and let them become players in this league. Let them get as many touches as possoble and play like a team. We are building this team around that core and we should play them that way. Im sure there will be ups and downs they will make mistakes but they will be more highs then lows Ill tell you that. Thats the only the way these guys will improve and be consistent night in and night out. The more these guys play and get inolved the better this team will be in the long run if were gonna lose games I dont want it to be by guys like Tyron Lue and Others playing big minutes shooting tons of shots for no reason. I have said it for months now this team will start to turn the corner when our young playes show big progress and start to lead this team with there on court play.

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Exatcly, i don't want to see Smoove just standing at the 3point line 3 years from now. I don't want to see Shelden's only offensive weapon is that jumper that he has 3 years from now. I don't want to see Marvin not getting the ball enough and not running plays for him in 3 years from now. I want Childress to get the ball and to run plays for him. These guys are too damn talented to stand and watch freaking Lue dominate the ball.

Unfortunately we will see all of this with Woody here and if Billy hires a another challenged coah like him.

[Packfill]

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The way this team is gonna improve is by letting the young guys lead this team with Joe Johnson. All our young guys need to touch the ball and get involved in the offense and defense. We should not have 9 year old veterans like Tyron Lue thinking he runs the team and shooting every time he gets it. This does nothing at all for the future of this team. We need to put the ball in the hands Of Smith, Marvin , Chill and Shelden and let them become players in this league. Let them get as many touches as possoble and play like a team. We are building this team around that core and we should play them that way. Im sure there will be ups and downs they will make mistakes but they will be more highs then lows Ill tell you that. Thats the only the way these guys will improve and be consistent night in and night out. The more these guys play and get inolved the better this team will be in the long run if were gonna lose games I dont want it to be by guys like Tyron Lue and Others playing big minutes shooting tons of shots for no reason. I have said it for months now this team will start to turn the corner when our young playes show big progress and start to lead this team with there on court play.

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Exatcly, i don't want to see Smoove just standing at the 3point line 3 years from now. I don't want to see Shelden's only offensive weapon is that jumper that he has 3 years from now. I don't want to see Marvin not getting the ball enough and not running plays for him in 3 years from now. I want Childress to get the ball and to run plays for him. These guys are too damn talented to stand and watch freaking Lue dominate the ball.

Unfortunately we will see all of this with Woody here and if Billy hires a another challenged coah like him.

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That is exactly why the team needs a real point guard - to get these guys the ball where they are comfortable with the ball and where they have an opportunity to score. A good point guard could really do wonders for Marvin and Smith by getting them the ball where they can use their athleticism to overwhelm opponents.

[frosgrim]

As mentioned in earlier posts, we can't really know what we have as a team until everyone gets back. JJ, Marvin, Chills, and Speedy all being out for significant stretches has hurt. Sheldon's shoulder is worrisome. The team is stuck in one of those injury-bug cycles. Injuries follow injuries because players are forced to either play too many minutes, or play in positions that they aren't suited for.

Once the Hawks get through this cycle, I think we can see what we really have in terms of raw talent and how its developing.

I have never been a Woody fan, and his refusal/inability to be creative on offense is killing the team. Where is the movement? Where are the low-post picks for Josh or Marvin to get free on the baseline for easy put-ins? Where is the ball movement. I have to think that Lue pounds the ball because that is what Woody told him to do. Quick offense is a solution to the teams shooting issues. These don't need to be thinking on offense they need to be shooting.

That said, the number 1 problem with the team is ownership. Until that situation is solved, the Hawks organization is stuck. It can't hire another coach. It can't make big deals. The organization is simply stuck in limbo. I do believe a better coaching staff would have the team playing better, at least on offense. I think the Hawks have two plays in the playbook and neither are all that effective. I would love to see Adleman here, but that isn't going to happen with the ownership problems.

[newkid]

I'm not CONVINCED he can, but I'm also not convinced he can't. Avery Johnson had very little experience as an NBA coach when he was hired by Dallas; he has done quite well largely because he was a student of the game before becoming a coach. I don't believe Mike D'Antoni was long on NBA coaching experience when he was hired by the Suns; he has done quite well. Many coaches who've had coaching experience in other environs (e.g., college) have come into the NBA and done exceptionally well.

You're right, Kareem does have somewhat of a reputation as it relates to communication with the media. But doesn't Bobby Knight (2nd winningest coach in college basketball)? I wouldn't forever relegate the guy to purgatory because of a reputation he had that was founded on Coach Wooden's desire to protect him from the overwhelming media attention he received as the nation's premier college athlete in the late 1960's. Kareem has admitted that the approach formerly used to try and shield him from the media, while well intended, was not the wise approach to use.

Kareem has been tutoring Bynum for less than a year, and the kid's progress can readily be seen on the floor. Says to me the guy knows how to teach. Smoove's in his third year in the NBA and there's precious little on-court demonstration of lessons learned (from Woody or anyone else) over that period. We're likely gonna get a young big man this coming draft or off-season trade. Who better to learn from the the master?

[chillzatl]

You are echoing the same ideas that I have offered up for a few years now and I appreciate the logical approach as opposed to the "we want it all, now" mentality of many here.

Every buildup of a team has a lifespan. Typically I'd say it's around 4-6 years, give or take. You get some key pieces and start shuffling the others to find the mix that works and hopefully gets you to a title. That's pretty much how it is in every sport. The way I see this team, we're in year 1, maybe 2, of that lifespan. We will continue to shuffle talent until we find the right mix or we come to a point that it all has to be torn down.

We certainly aren't at a point where it all needs to be torn down and I've only seen a few here who seem to think that way. We're also not at a point where we should be expected to be a title contender. We've got too much undeveloped talent for either.

That's where have a problem with the "we want it all" crowd. I don't see how anyone can look at this team and the talent on it (or lack of) and logically expect us to win. I don't see how they can blame any one aspect for this either. I don't blame the players because most of them are young and inconsistant. That's just part of the maturation process. We've just got to be careful of crossing that fine line of recognizing when a guy simply isn't going to develop and getting something good in return for him.

I can't blame the coach because of what he's working with. When you don't know what you're going to get from a guy night after night, it's hard to do too much. We get consistant play from our vets, we just don't have enough of them. Also, when I look around the league I see so called star coaches being dumped left and right because their teams tune them out and quit on them. This team hasn't done that yet, despite all the losses and bad games. He's managed to keep a young team focused and giving good effort. That's a hard thing to do. From an x's and o's standpoint it's easy to tear him down becuase we see everything he does. realistically he probably screws up about as much as everyone else, we just see every one of his games so it's magnified.

Could someone else do better? Maybe, but I think we're talking a few games better and not 20 games better. The talent simply isn't there, IMO.

[exodus]

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We get consistant play from our vets, we just don't have enough of them.

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The problem is that, in the case of Speedy and BLo, they are consistently horrible.