Players take blame for collapse!! AJC

[gutz]

HAWKS

Players take blame for collapse

By SEKOU SMITH

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 12/22/06

It was all eyes on and ears open to the coaching staff for the Hawks Thursday.

Blowing a 21-point lead and losing to Utah Wednesday night had a stunning effect on Joe Johnson and his teammate.

So much so that Johnson and fellow Hawks veterans Tyronn Lue, Speedy Claxton and Lorenzen Wright conducted a players-only film session so they could review the carnage among themselves.

It took about an hour for them to watch 12 minutes of actual game film. It might take longer for them to overcome their collapse, their second straight come-from-ahead loss — they squandered a 16-point lead and lost to Chicago Saturday.

"We needed to watch it on our own," Johnson said. "We need to take a look at ourselves, and we need to hold ourselves accountable for what's going on out there on the floor late in games, in the fourth quarter when we're falling apart. That's our responsibility. Not the coaches or anyone else. Because what happened, blowing a 21-point lead, that's just not acceptable.

"We have to finish a team off. We have a team, and instead of us playing the way we played to get the lead, we're playing to protect the lead. If we take a 93-72 lead in the third quarter, it's up to us to make sure that lead grows or at least stays in that neighborhood."

Looking to the bench for an assist, Claxton said, is not how it works in the NBA. "Anybody expecting the coaches to get off a screen for them or make the guy guarding you stop grabbing your shirt on a cut to the basket is dreaming," he said. "There comes a point in games when you have to be able to assert yourself and execute plays the way they've been practiced. We're not doing that. But we have to if we expect to get it right."

Wow the Hawks players had a "players only" film session today to go over their MONUMENTAL collapse from last night. They seem pissed and ready to get it on!! I'm trying to optomistic as much as I can and I'm hoping that loss kicks their asses in gear. Huge game tomorrow night with AL Harrington and the Pacers coming in town. We NEED to smash them and hold on to the damn lead for once and make a statement. GO Hawks

[TheDude]

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HAWKS

Players take blame for collapse

By SEKOU SMITH

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 12/22/06

It was all eyes on and ears open to the coaching staff for the Hawks Thursday.

Blowing a 21-point lead and losing to Utah Wednesday night had a stunning effect on Joe Johnson and his teammate.

So much so that Johnson and fellow Hawks veterans Tyronn Lue, Speedy Claxton and Lorenzen Wright conducted a players-only film session so they could review the carnage among themselves.

It took about an hour for them to watch 12 minutes of actual game film. It might take longer for them to overcome their collapse, their second straight come-from-ahead loss — they squandered a 16-point lead and lost to Chicago Saturday.

"We needed to watch it on our own," Johnson said. "We need to take a look at ourselves, and we need to hold ourselves accountable for what's going on out there on the floor late in games, in the fourth quarter when we're falling apart. That's our responsibility. Not the coaches or anyone else. Because what happened, blowing a 21-point lead, that's just not acceptable.

"We have to finish a team off. We have a team, and instead of us playing the way we played to get the lead, we're playing to protect the lead. If we take a 93-72 lead in the third quarter, it's up to us to make sure that lead grows or at least stays in that neighborhood."

Looking to the bench for an assist, Claxton said, is not how it works in the NBA. "Anybody expecting the coaches to get off a screen for them or make the guy guarding you stop grabbing your shirt on a cut to the basket is dreaming," he said. "There comes a point in games when you have to be able to assert yourself and execute plays the way they've been practiced. We're not doing that. But we have to if we expect to get it right."

Wow the Hawks players had a "players only" film session today to go over their MONUMENTAL collapse from last night. They seem pissed and ready to get it on!! I'm trying to optomistic as much as I can and I'm hoping that loss kicks their asses in gear. Huge game tomorrow night with AL Harrington and the Pacers coming in town. We NEED to smash them and hold on to the damn lead for once and make a statement. GO Hawks

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yeah honestly i don't know how we can blame that big lead going away strictly on Woodson. if he had just sat there on the bench the whole time sure but he was up and in people's faces and involved in the game. even if he switched up his game plan, it wouldnt have been enough to lose a 21 point lead. i blame more of the playing not to lose. i mean you could tell as you were watching the game. i don't think woodson told salim to do the uncontested foul, marvin to turn the ball over and miss shots, and josh to start shooting jumpers. although he probably did call for zaza to stand out by the free throw line like a lighthouse when he should have been fighting down low.

[DJlaysitup]

Sounds to me like JJ got the players together and said something like "we've got to get it done in spite of these fools" - kinda like the movie "Stripes"...these guys are going to have to do it themselves - can't count on any real help from Woodhead or his minions...actually I see that as a sad commentary on our coaching situation.

Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...of course a strong coach wouldn't have allowed the collapse in the first place.

pitiful.

[Lascar78]

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Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...

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Players only meetings are pretty common in the NBA (and other levels), especially when things aren't going too well. It's not a slight to the coaching staff. It's more about the team itself trying to get even closer and tighten up the troops.

Granted Woody is clearly not that good as a coach, but I don't think that's what this is about.

If anything, this could be a sign that they know what Woody wants from them and they wanted a session without him to see why they don't do what he asks and what exactly happens. For instance if he's telling them to go to the hole and yet in the heat of the moment they keep shooting jumpers. Who knows?

I will say this, as Woody's tenure goes on, two things are excessively clear about him:

1-he is EXCELLENT at cultivating a team spirit, and keeping the team motivated even through all the losing and when they are down big in games.

2-he is BAD at X's and O's and substitution patterns. He's improved, but he's still bad. If he is ever to be an outstanding head coach, he would need a lot of support from an experienced assistant coach to help draw up plays and especially the substitutions.

I think we could really use a much better coach in here, but he shouldn't be fired until a much better guy is found. Firing Woody and brining in another green / average coach would hurt more than it helps.

[bootsybug]

^ i think that's really well stated.

[KB21]

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I think we could really use a much better coach in here, but he shouldn't be fired until a much better guy is found. Firing Woody and brining in another green / average coach would hurt more than it helps.

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I agree, but I also believe that if you fire him, you have to find a coach that will mesh well with the young players on this team. I believe there is enough talent in place that in two to three years time, there are a lot of veteran coaches that will jump at the chance to take this job. A lot of those veteran coaches may not be willing to go through the developmental period some of these players are going through though.

The Hawks still have the youngest basketball team in the NBA. They are going to make mistakes whether the coach is Mike Woodson or Mike Fratello.

The things I have noticed about Mike Woodson:

The Good

1. His players have not quit on him. Say what you want, but if Mike Woodson was as terrible as some on here are trying to make him out to be, you would be able to see it in the player's effort. These guys would walk through a wall for Mike though.

2. As you stated, he's excellent at cultivating team spirit. That may go into my first point about his players never quitting on him.

3. I think he has been excellent at player development.

4. I think he has done a very good job of identifying things such as Ty Lue playing better when he comes off the bench despite being a veteran and better player than any other option we had at the point guard position before we got Speedy. Also, he knew before the season started that Josh Smith was really fitting in at the power forward position in the line up, and that has been proven because Josh's game has taken off since Marvin came back and bumped him from the small forward spot.

The Bad

1. I agree that his substitution patterns are very inconsistent.

I don't know enough about the X's and O's of basketball to determine if he's good in that department.

[Diesel]

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Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...

of course a strong coach wouldn't have allowed the collapse in the first place.

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Really?

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Shareef Abdur-Rahim scored 21 points, including a 3-pointer in the final minute, and the Sacramento Kings rallied from a 16-point deficit to beat the Utah Jazz 98-97 Friday

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I guess Jerry Sloan is a weak coach...

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When Seattle’s lead grew to 14 it seemed the Mavericks were just on the wrong side of destiny on this rainy night in the Pacific Northwest.

The Mavericks’ bench is the fifth-worst in the league in terms of their point contribution, coming in right at 22 points per contest prior to the Seattle game. There was little reason to hope that someone would step in and help the Mavs recover. Jerry Stackhouse has been struggling with a groin injury all season (and much of last season, for that matter), and even when he has been in the lineup his shooting touch has been off. Devean George was expected to be a force off the bench, but has also had a hard time getting healthy and getting into Avery’s system.

It’s safe to say that the Mavericks’ fate seemed to be sealed when Nowitzki hit the court.

It didn’t take a 60-year old boxer coming out of retirement to save the day for the Mavs, but what happened seemed almost as unlikely. They used a 19-8 run to open the second half, a 10-0 run in the fourth, and a gargantuan performance from their stalwart center to turn what looked like a sure loss into a 103-95 win over the Sonics.

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I guess Seattle's coach sucks too.

You see DJay, Sometimes, it has nothing to do with coaching but it's about boneheaded plays committed... and sometimes, it's your best players who committ them. What's a coach to do? Pull the best player?

Or sometimes, it's because of the loss of momentum. Aside from calling timeouts and making what you feel is the right adjustment, there's nothing that can be done there either.

I don't blame Woody for what the team does. I blame him for some things that may be in-game. But to say that another coach would have stoppped the slide is silly. It just may be that another coach would not have had the 21 point lead in the first place.

However, JJ is right, the team has to do the things that got it to the lead. That's not coaching more than it is experience.

[Swatguy]

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You see DJay, Sometimes, it has nothing to do with coaching but it's about boneheaded plays committed... and sometimes, it's your best players who committ them. What's a coach to do? Pull the best player?

Or sometimes, it's because of the loss of momentum. Aside from calling timeouts and making what you feel is the right adjustment, there's nothing that can be done there either.

I don't blame Woody for what the team does. I blame him for some things that may be in-game. But to say that another coach would have stoppped the slide is silly. It just may be that another coach would not have had the 21 point lead in the first place.

However, JJ is right, the team has to do the things that got it to the lead. That's not coaching more than it is experience.

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I concur

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...

of course a strong coach wouldn't have allowed the collapse in the first place.

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Really?

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Shareef Abdur-Rahim scored 21 points, including a 3-pointer in the final minute, and the Sacramento Kings rallied from a 16-point deficit to beat the Utah Jazz 98-97 Friday

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I guess Jerry Sloan is a weak coach...

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When Seattle’s lead grew to 14 it seemed the Mavericks were just on the wrong side of destiny on this rainy night in the Pacific Northwest.

The Mavericks’ bench is the fifth-worst in the league in terms of their point contribution, coming in right at 22 points per contest prior to the Seattle game. There was little reason to hope that someone would step in and help the Mavs recover. Jerry Stackhouse has been struggling with a groin injury all season (and much of last season, for that matter), and even when he has been in the lineup his shooting touch has been off. Devean George was expected to be a force off the bench, but has also had a hard time getting healthy and getting into Avery’s system.

It’s safe to say that the Mavericks’ fate seemed to be sealed when Nowitzki hit the court.

It didn’t take a 60-year old boxer coming out of retirement to save the day for the Mavs, but what happened seemed almost as unlikely. They used a 19-8 run to open the second half, a 10-0 run in the fourth, and a gargantuan performance from their stalwart center to turn what looked like a sure loss into a 103-95 win over the Sonics.

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I guess Seattle's coach sucks too.

You see DJay, Sometimes, it has nothing to do with coaching but it's about boneheaded plays committed... and sometimes, it's your best players who committ them. What's a coach to do? Pull the best player?

Or sometimes, it's because of the loss of momentum. Aside from calling timeouts and making what you feel is the right adjustment, there's nothing that can be done there either.

I don't blame Woody for what the team does. I blame him for some things that may be in-game. But to say that another coach would have stoppped the slide is silly. It just may be that another coach would not have had the 21 point lead in the first place.

However, JJ is right, the team has to do the things that got it to the lead. That's not coaching more than it is experience.

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Excellent post Diesel.

People think everything in sports revolves around coaching. Well, even good coaches can look like crap, when they have players making horrible decisions on the floor. ( see Larry Brown ).

The Knicks are playing better this year under Isaiah, than under Brown. But no one in their right mind would say that Zeke is a better coach than Brown, because of that.

What was bad about Wednesday's meltdown, is that it happened offensively AND defensively. When you see a meltdown on both sides of the ball, that's not coaching. That's all on the players.

[KB21]

I agree. Good post!

I think people are forgetting that this is the same coach and same team that overcame a big lead that the Denver Nuggets had to come back and beat that team. Does that mean George Karl is a terrible coach?

[Guest]

that you mentioned with similar collapses had 16+ leads blown in the fourth quarter in consecutive games??? All that I saw was those particular coaches (Sloan, Karl, Hill...) had ONE game with a collapse. Woodson did this in consecutive games, wouldn't you think he would have learned his lesson the first time? He didn't, and thats why he should not be allowed to coach in the NBA. He does a piss-ass job of preparing this team.

I didn't start ranting about Woodson after the first blown game, but I am now because this is getting ridiculous. BK should be fired for hiring a coach where there is a serious conflict of interest (you don't do business with your best friend, its a common rule). BK cannot look at Woodson in any non-biased way because he will always try to defend his friend.

[Lascar78]

In all fairness those other coaches don't have the youngest team in the league either. The bottom line is that unless you know what Woody is saying, you can't know if Woody or the players should take most of the blame.

[Diesel]

In the Chicago game, I blame Woody more than the players. Woody took out a team that was working that included Lo and Salim (OMG) to replace them with JJ. JJ didn't do squat down the stretch and it was later revealed that JJ said that his legs were tired. Woody as the coach should have realized that JJ was not up to snuff just yet and kept going with what was winning.

In the Utah game, I don't think it was the timeouts, the play calling, or the rotation. It was a bunch of guys who just played the "prevent defense" because mentally, they felt that they had to protect the lead instead of do the things they did to keep the lead. Also, there may have been the feeling of "here we go again". The coach can do nothing about either of those things.

Now, had Woody put in Ivey, Carlos, and Freije... we would all be on here pissing mad. So you just can't put the coach in an unwinable situation like that.

[Guest]

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In the Chicago game, I blame Woody more than the players.

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I believe the post before you said:

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I don't blame Woody for what the team does.

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I will just reiterate that it isn't the Utah debacle or the Chicago debacle that has me over the edge on Woody, it is that he allowed the Utah debacle to happen just after they had a similar lead THE PREVIOUS GAME. Holy [censored], if that doesn't scream bad coaching then I don't know what does.

[DJlaysitup]

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Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...

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Players only meetings are pretty common in the NBA (and other levels), especially when things aren't going too well. It's not a slight to the coaching staff...

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I somewhat disagree - it shows that the team is at a loss. I doubt Lombardi's Packers or Red's Celtics had "players only - motivational" meetings. Strong leaders lead - others hope the "touchy-feely" team meetings help.

Winners impose their will. Coaching isn't over-rated (IMO).

As far as fluke collapses - se my signature block below.

[Hoosier]

Everyone should be taking responsibility for the loss to Utah, but it sounds like only the players are the only ones willing to step up and do so. If I were coaching the loser in that game, I would find the AJC reporter and take full accountability for that mess, that's just what real coaches do.

[Johnnybravo4]

I wonder when did the Atlanta Spirit remove y'alls nutts? You have got to be kidding me. If Woody bears no blame then we might as well save a few bucks and hire Coach Mccray from the Atlanta Celtics. I guarantee he is a better coach than Woody is.

[DJlaysitup]

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Everyone should be taking responsibility for the loss to Utah, but it sounds like only the players are the only ones willing to step up and do so. If I were coaching the loser in that game, I would find the AJC reporter and take full accountability for that mess, that's just what real coaches do.

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Exactly right.

[Diesel]

Hello dumbass...

I don't blame woody for what the team does. I also said directly following that statement, I blame Woody for IN-GAME COACHING DECISIONS...

Learn to read.

If Woody would have gone out there and Caused Salim to make stupid fouls, I would have blamed Woody and not Salim...

However, when Woody puts an ineffective team on the floor... I blame him for that and not the players...

LEARN TO READ!!!!

[Guest]

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I don't blame woody for what the team does.

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This implies that you do not blame Woody for whether or not the team wins or loses the game. Bright statement.

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I also said directly following that statement, I blame Woody for IN-GAME COACHING DECISIONS...

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Well no [censored], that IS the coach's job. And that directly affects the team. That is what you blame the coach for, what exactly are you implying you don't blame Woody for?

Diesel you just either 1)said a ridiculously stupid statement about not blaming a coach because he didn't go "out there and Caused Salim to make stupid fouls" or 2)contradicted yourself in consecutive posts. You see, I assumed you weren't stupid enough to make the 1) statement, but I guess I was wrong. My bad, didn't know you literally meant you don't blame Woody when we make a turnover. Next time I will think of you as even dumber than you appear to be.