Atlanta Spirit bashing: misguided or justified?

[gsuteke]

I think the financial liability that the AS has on the line with this court case goes either unnoticed or ignored by many here.

As it stands now they lost the last round. There may be a temporary stay of execution, however if this thing was dropped tomorrow Belkin won the last judgement in Maryland was it?

The Atlanta Hawks are losing money right now and the AS members will have to cover this either out of their pockets or it will come out of their buyout amount they receive as individuals from Belkin. If they bring in an additional 10 million dollars in payroll this year divide that up by X number of AS members and you have X amount coming out of their pockets. These guys have money, but we aren't talking Bill Gates type money here. I'm sure as the Hawks lose money these owners' individual portfolios are feeling the pinch.

Once this court case is settled we will see a new dynamic start to take shape. I think right now the mandate is wait and see for a few months while the young talent matures on the court. This ownership group has given us no reason to think they want anything other than a winning product on the court.

The Billy Knight/Mike Woodson angles are just that, angles. Those are opinions. The AS people may think they are doing a fantastic job. Many of us disagree. That still doesn't change the fact that they seem committed to putting a winning product on the floor.

[Guest Walter]

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The Billy Knight/Mike Woodson angles are just that, angles. Those are opinions. The AS people may think they are doing a fantastic job. Many of us disagree. That still doesn't change the fact that they seem committed to putting a winning product on the floor.

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I believe there is quite a bit of fact demonstrating failed leadership regarding both of them.

As far as the AS, I don't doubt their intentions are good, but a fortune cookie once said, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". They are tied at the hip to BK and him to Woody after the JJ trade/ownership scandal and (if you agree they have good intentions) they are rather incompetent businessmen. The court cases could drag on for 4-5 more years I would assume as the next decision will certainly be appealed. I would take lesser intentions (though not to Belkins' extent) over lesser competence from ownership to GM to coach any day of the week. I don't think we have to make that trade off to get a more competent owner, GM, and/or coach. Just stating the lengths I'd be willing to go to be rid of coach, GM, owners in that order.

W

[gsuteke]

Don't you think that is a little harsh Walter?

Subsequently you didn't address the potential financial situation (which is total speculation on my part of course) that may have some things in a holding pattern.

Haven't they demonstrated through the Thrashers that they are committed to atleast trying to put a winning product in the Arena?

[bootsybug]

how did the thrashers end up in such a good situation and the hawks end up in such a bad situation? how did the thrashers get a really experienced coach and we get woodsen? i know the A+ coaches may not want to come here, but there have to be some experienced guys who can buy into our youth and talent.

just wish something would go our way for a change.

[Guest Walter]

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Don't you think that is a little harsh Walter?

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...but to this date they are proven incompetent as owners and are too tied to their underlings in part due to their (needing to justify their ownership disruptive past loyalty to said underlings and) incompetence. The facts are that they didn't know their lead partner well enough, read the fine print close enough, and didn't act assertively enough in the resulting court proceedings.

I don't question their heart and soul. I question their mind. I do question their wallet as long as this court battle continues and it may continue for alot longer than many want to conceed. By then, if the life of this rebuild is not already sucked out by the actions of other parties, the rebuild might be starved to death. Again, I'd prefer lesser intentions over lesser competence, although I don't see us having to conceed the first for the second.

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Subsequently you didn't address the potential financial situation (which is total speculation on my part of course) that may have some things in a holding pattern.

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Don't doubt it. I don't believe that was the case until the AS were "shocked" to lose their initial appeal. Alot could have been done before the appeal results such as trade Al during last season.

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Haven't they demonstrated through the Thrashers that they are committed to atleast trying to put a winning product in the Arena?

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Yes. Commited to a large extent. Not to the extreme point of throwing extravagant sums of money blindly into a product they may have to sell at less than cost, but commited they are. Maybe I would long for that commitment if we lacked it but were run better from coach to GM and not in this ownership disaster. Unfortunately, we are. It is hard to applaud commitment when these are the results.

W

[gsuteke]

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how did the thrashers end up in such a good situation and the hawks end up in such a bad situation? how did the thrashers get a really experienced coach and we get woodsen? i know the A+ coaches may not want to come here, but there have to be some experienced guys who can buy into our youth and talent.

just wish something would go our way for a change.

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the Blank/AS thread is what made me think of this. there are a ton of variables going on here and I know many of them are being overlooked.

Can the Hawks field a competitive team even with this Belkin stuff going on? of course.

[Guest Walter]

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Can the Hawks field a competitive team even with this Belkin stuff going on? of course.

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The Belkin stuff didn't affect major decisions until this offseason court ruling IMHO. When the remaining AS lost it it was like a shock to them it seemed and suddenly they had to rethink their "commitment". Just my opinion (and this really is a guess-timate).

My answer? I don't know. Depends upon what "competitive" means. Had we not made the two major draft errors of the past two drafts, neither impacted by the ownership situation, I'd agree, "of course" and "competitive could mean contention.

W

[Diesel]

People here do not realize the severity of the Split and the possible ramification of the Spirit not getting the team.

IF the ruling holds up, then it doesn't matter how much AS spends on the team, they have to sell it to Belkin at Cost...

That would make any "potential owner" slow down the spending... and try to cruise.

The other thing is that AS is not exactly Losing money. I think that BK has done a great job of keeping the team cheap so that they can break even. Overally, I think they have lost a whole lot of money paying off previous debts. For any Judge to just give Belkin this team at cost because Belkin was successful in holding up the sell is ridiculous. It's as simple as this, Belkin agreed to sell his share of the team to the other partners. At this point, there should have been some court ordered arbitrator who was given the time to make sure that the deal was complete. If AS signed something that said otherwise, then by the law, they may be screwed.

If they are screwed, then they want to get out of this deal without losing their shirts.

[Diesel]

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They are tied at the hip to BK and him to Woody after the JJ trade/ownership scandal and (if you agree they have good intentions) they are rather incompetent businessmen.

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I think you have to realize that everything that BK had done up until the start of FAcy was part of a plan. I think Once FAcy hit and Belkin's ruling came down the pike, it changed everything about the plan. Instead of getting a signed Magloire for AL, they had to settle for Lo Wright and a midround pick in the draft.

Because if you look at the moves before the Al trade...

Speedy - PG.

Shelden - PF.

Their next move was for a Center.

Rumored was:

Magloire.

Dalembert.

Camby.

Mihm.

If we could have gotten Camby, i would have slapped a newborn in the face! but I think that the money issues stopped what would have been.

[Packfill]

I think the non-Belkin spirit group is dissapointing. I am not saying Belkin would be better, but these dolts let Belkin outsmart them on at least two occassions and that does not bode for the future (and it has further contributed to the Hawks poor reputation around the league).

[macdaddy]

Belkin did not negotiate in good faith though and that will come back to bite him. He delibrately sabotaged the deal he agreed to and I think the Spirit group is banking on a higher court nixing this as a pre-meditated scam.

[Diesel]

I think Belkin is very shrewd but at the same time, he deals in bad business. I really don't want a guy who is that Shady owning my favorite team. He doesn't care about the Hawks. He only cares about having power and getting Money. He's not trying to build a winner at all.

Yes, the AS group were suckers.. all day. Yes, they have been duped and look like novices... they probably are novices.... compared to Belk who does this sort of thing all the time. But I know that they are in it as fans first and then business men.

I hear some of the guys here talk about letting real businessmen (like Blank) run the team?? That's stupid. A real businessman knows nothing about basketball or what the fans want. The fans are still the consumer. A real businessman would have let JJ go. A real businessman would not do what was needed but would only care about the bottomline.

Give me owners who are just as passionate about the team as I am.

[Packfill]

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Belkin did not negotiate in good faith though and that will come back to bite him. He delibrately sabotaged the deal he agreed to and I think the Spirit group is banking on a higher court nixing this as a pre-meditated scam.

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I hope it does. He is scum. That said, I don't think the rest of the spirit group inspires confidence either. Kind of like picking the lesser of two evils.

[gsuteke]

no I'm not talking about what Diesel had for breakfast....

David Stern. This guy is a micro-manager and you know he has a plan in place once this next ruling is handed down. he has been conspicuously silent.

[Guest Walter]

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I think you have to realize that everything that BK had done up until the start of FAcy was part of a plan. I think Once FAcy hit and Belkin's ruling came down the pike, it changed everything about the plan.

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"Plan"? Please. Ideology yes, plan no. "Everybody, even less talented 6'8" players on board, we'll sort it out later." If that's a plan then...

Once constraints from the court ruling set in mid this offseason (after Speedy signing I believe) and it seems the remaining ownership group had to wake up (and conceivably lower spending projections), given BK's history, it just as easily stopped BK from making an even worse bonehead move rather than a legit center acquiring one. I'd say what BK did in this situation is about HIS par for the course.

W

W

[Sothron]

I think the AS absolutely deserves some slack here. Belkin is trying to steal the team as he knows its the only way he'd ever have the chance to be principal owner of a NBA franchise.

[Guest Walter]

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I think the AS absolutely deserves some slack here. Belkin is trying to steal the team as he knows its the only way he'd ever have the chance to be principal owner of a NBA franchise.

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Belkin is a very bad guy, but they chose to do business, very poor business with him.

Good intentions don't excuse a miriad of mistakes made that continue to negatively effect the Hawks' franchise. I choose to separate "cutting them slack" from endorsing them as Hawks' owners. I hope they "win" the court cases to come but even if they do, the Hawks franchise still lost in all this.

If this is all settled prior to say next offseason, I may change my mind. I can't imagine it being settled that quickly as I see at least one more appeal. Maybe the next judgment will be worded strongly enough to cease all these actions.

W

[AHF]

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Belkin is a very bad guy, but they chose to do business, very poor business with him.

I choose to separate "cutting them slack" from endorsing them as Hawks' owners. I hope they "win" the court cases to come but even if they do, the Hawks franchise still lost in all this.

I can't imagine it being settled that quickly as I see at least one more appeal. Maybe the next judgment will be worded strongly enough to cease all these actions.

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This is a pretty fair and balanced read on the situation, IMO.

I would add that it is difficult to really assess BK's performance or AS's while the ownership problems continue. BK can't replace Woodson with a quality coach during that time and the AS has to either dump money they may never see again into the team or adopt a "wait and see" approach where they try to make good moves for the future when they can open their wallets if they win the case. They have obviously gone for the second approach.

I want to see them win but am very frustrated with the way this buyout of Belkin has proceeded. It is bad enough not knowing who the owner is but the team is paying a price in the short term for the confusion and upheaval for what should have been an avoidable problem if the contract would have been properly drafted.

[Sothron]

The legal actions could last easily another two to three years. If the courts uphold at the end Belkin's claim and the NBA refuses to recognize him as the owner (which they have the legal right to do) then it could open up yet another few years of litigation.

[Diesel]

He picked the best Pf in the draft because he knew that after the trade of Al we would need a PF. How hard is that for you to see??

All summer long, BK talked about "if it were possible to resign Al". As the summer went on, it did indeed become possible to resign him. He just didn't want to. It wasn't a part of his plan.

His first move in FAcy was to get a veteran PG

Like it or not, Speedy was coming off of a really good year and when healthy he has shown to be a good distributor and defender. Just what we need. You can't sit here with your broken Recorditis and not see that getting a veteran PG was a part of the plan.

Let's look at a BK quote (in the moment)...

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“We were aggressively seeking to upgrade this position during the free agency period and it didn’t take long for us to come to an agreement with Speedy and his representatives,” said Knight. “As we continue to build a team with playoff aspirations, we now have our second veteran point guard with championship experience and the ability to help us reach that goal in Speedy. While his addition strengthens our backcourt and adds quality depth with Tyronn Lue and Royal Ivey, we will continue to do what is necessary to give our fans the type of team they can be proud of.”

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In the middle of signing Claxton, Evil Lord Belkin decides to put handcuffs on the Hawks...

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The judge ordered that the other owners can't "initiate the purchase, sale, trade or negotiation of any NBA or NHL player contract ... excluding contracts involving present or future draft picks and contracts for any other player with a contract duration of one year or less."

The ruling would appear to put the Hawks and Thrashers at a significant competitive disadvantage in their ability to attract free agents.

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That is what we call a plan destroyer...