IT'S OVER !!!!!!!

[Gray Mule]

FINALLY !!!

Hawks actually win one!!

How about that !

We neded that one.

[Diesel]

Guess we won't here for Walter for a few days!

[gsuteke]

he didn't try to empty his bench in the 1st half.

nice win Hawks!

[Gray Mule]

Naw. He will be around complaining how we're trying to mess up our draft chances !!!

Good to win any way!

[Guest Walter]

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Guess we won't here for Walter for a few days!

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I thought the same about you after your "4 wins in a row" went down.

W

[Diesel]

Hey...

one thing you can count on Walt.

Me supporting the team that I say I like.

You however??

Hmm...

Like i have said before.. In the 7-8 yrs we've been at this, I can recall very few positives you've had about the Hawks and you disappear with the winning streaks.

I wanted a 4 game winning streak just so I can stop reading your gloom and doom every hour!

[exodus]

I'll gladly take one in a row at this point.

I think a big key tonight is that they didn't make their usual quota of dumb/pathetic turnovers.

[Guest Walter]

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Like i have said before.. In the 7-8 yrs we've been at this, I can recall very few positives you've had about the Hawks...I wanted a 4 game winning streak just so I can stop reading your gloom and doom every hour!

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...so we can stop hoping for 1 game win streaks for the NEXT 7-8 years.

Diesel, you've supported lesser mediocrity ever since I've known you and I wouldn't expect you to want anymore for this franchise now.

W

[Diesel]

Yeah, you just want to destroy this team to get it?

You've had your eye off the prize for several years now.

If you advocate getting a top 3 pick, Like I have said, do it the right way.

Start proposing trading Smoove, JJ, and JChillz for Picks and ending contracts.

Don't have a team to tank and then tell them next year that "I think you guys are good!!" That's BS.

That's like me saying... "Walter I want you to check every piece of work you do through me to make sure it's accurate and make sense... then in the same breath saying "Hey, I think you're a scholar"...

That's what you're saying when you tell a team to start tanking 30 games in. If you will notice, most teams who have tanked either put their best players out on the IL legitimately (San Antonio) or they traded away everybody on the team that tanked (Cleveland)... but no GM is stupid enough to have his team tank for a top three pick and then keep the team that tanked.... Damn, that's stupid. You're saying to those guys... You guys suck and you need this top three pick to even be competitive. Even the notion of tanking is something that (if you were competitive) would make you furious. However, You seem to believe that telling your team to lose is competitive. I can see that you've never been competitive and you don't know what losing does to a team.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . Diesel has a way of really driving a point home.

I'll even add another team to that mix . . . Denver, back in 2003. They traded away high salary players who had value, for expiring contracts of players who were flat out bums. It was a 2 year process to dump salary and obtain expiring contracts, then put themselves in position to remake the team.

High salary guys like Nick Van Exel, Raef LaFrentz, and Antonio McDyess were either all dealt or not resigned in the 2001 - 2002 season. And their leading scorer in the 2002 - 2003 season, Juwan Howard, was also not resigned. That put them in position to get the high draft pick and also totally remake the team.

Sound familiar?

In 2004, they obtained the #2 spot, in which they chose Carmelo. They also obtained Andre Miller, Earl Boykins, and Voshon Lenard in free agency that year, completely remaking their backcourt.

In fact, if you look at the top players left from that 2003 year, the only players that remained in 2004, were Nene, Marcus Camby ( who was hurt most of 2003 ), and Rodney White. Ironically, these were decent frontcourt players who now had decent backcourt players to work with.

So when Denver made their quantum leap from 17 in 2003 to 43 wins in 2004, they pretty much gutted the team and brought in totally new talent. In all, 8 new faces were on the roster.

The idea of "tanking", then keeping the exact same team that "tanked" the next year, is at the very least . . . foolish. Their confidence would be completely destroyed if that was the philosophy.

What the Hawks need to do now, is stabilize this season by winning close to 50% of their next 15 or so games. Then, near or after the All-Star break, this team will have to go on some 5 - 7 game win streak, if they want to be a playoff contender.

But this season is far from over. The players can still salvage this season with 32 - 35 wins, and even a possible outside playoff shot.

[Guest Walter]

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Yeah, you just want to destroy this team to get it?

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I've actually stated that I wouldn't mind not making a single change other than a franchise center and potentially a Pg prospect, both of which could be had in this draft with a top 3 pick and Indy's pick. That would do more to solidify this team than "fighting the good fight" but giving up the 6th overall pick ever would.

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You've had your eye off the prize for several years now.

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You mean a 7th worst place finish that you are wanting with all your pathetic little heart this year? Yes, I've had my eyes off such moral victories for awhile now.

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If you advocate getting a top 3 pick, Like I have said, do it the right way.

Start proposing trading Smoove, JJ, and JChillz for Picks and ending contracts.

---

WAIT!?! Are you suggesting we "destroy this team to get it"?????? Didn't you just try to attack for that nonsense? How lame. Would it have been the right way for SA to tank by trading David Robinson? I don't want a first piece. I want an all important, franchise-saving final piece. One that a hamstrung ownership team could not otherwise acquire under ANY circumstance. Of course, we tanked with Harrington on the bench without trading JS and JC. I guess just about every team "tanks the wrong way".

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Don't have a team to tank and then tell them next year that "I think you guys are good!!" That's BS.

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I think you tell them to look behind them! When they see a 7'1" or 7'3" physical, defensive freak standing behind them then maybe they feel a little bolder, act a little bigger, and pretty soon have a swagger, something we'll never have as designed. Soon enough the team develops an identity around that center. Oden is the Norse god of inspiration. You don't think seeing him behind you inspires confidence? Thabeet is even bigger and defensively may be even badder. More confidence.

Simply put, you don't ask players to tank, we simply induce it with small, selective moves that we would likely have to make regardless, moves that have a 50% or so chance of making us almost instant contenders, moves when there are no other significant moves to make. Trading Lue, playing our 2ndry bigs more, and playing JJ 35 instead of a 2nd in the league 42 MPG are all small things to do and could potentially benefit the team long-term.

It's almost like placing patients in an induced coma in order to allow them to heal. Why don't these patients just give up realizing that they were too weak to survive on their own and the doctor had to force an improved state of healing? Because god bless them, they're fighters and if the induced coma state is effective, they wake up with a better body than they would have. We can wake up from this with a bionic center. No doubt a better body.

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That's like me saying... "Walter I want you to check every piece of work you do through me to make sure it's accurate and make sense... then in the same breath saying "Hey, I think you're a scholar"...

---

That is a lousy example fo something I'm sure. I'll try to use your example. If this team thinks its a scholar at anything it damn sure needs to be put back in its place. This team is a far cry from academia. It might be a college sophomore who likes books, but it's no scholar.

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but no GM is stupid enough to have his team tank for a top three pick and then keep the team that tanked.... Damn, that's stupid.

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Well, first off, I'm not saying we SHOULD or MUST keep everybody no matter what. Even you incessantly trade MW. So are you for "keeping the team" or not?!? Second, I think Cleveland kept big Z, we kept JS and JC despite benching Harrington. And third, most teams don't have our opportunity. The opportunity to tank with some (raw) talent. I think a perfect storm of inadequate GMing, coaching, and injuries may afford us that opportunity but it will require us actively seeking it and making minor moves and decisions that further it. Fourth, have you seen this draft!!! Lastly, few if any teams are in the position we're in in terms of needing to keep the 3rd pick or lose it entirely and having no other means through which to significantly improve the team given our ownership situation.

So if your point is that in a normal, perfect world where you haven't traded your pick away save a top 3 pick, your ownership is willing and able to spend to improve the team, your franchise situation isn't so chaotic you could expect interest from GMs, coaches, and players, it wasn't the 2nd best draft in 10-12 years, etc. I'd say you have an argument. Unfortunately, it's not so nice in neat in reality. The edges are rough. Sometimes you have to cut yourself to get the infusion of new blood and talent you need to win it all.

W

[Diesel]

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I think you tell them to look behind them! When they see a 7'1" or 7'3" physical, defensive freak standing behind them then maybe they feel a little bolder, act a little bigger, and pretty soon have a swagger, something we'll never have as designed.

---

This only works on your playstation.

Show me one instance, where a team tanked and kept all of it's players in place the next year (without having a great amount of injury).

You ruin the confidence of a player by telling them that you have to lose for us to become a better franchise. The whole mode of a player is their competitive nature. Very few players make it to the NBA without being driven and without having some amount of confidence in thier abilities. Now, if it's possible to blame the coach.. then that's acceptable, but to tell a team to go out and lose on purpose is really placing the blame on the players. Players don't look at the game from the GM's perspective nor can they ever afford to do so... They must look at it from a player's point of view. A players point of view is to conquer...

Why do you fail to see the idoiticy of keep a team that just tanked a season?

[exodus]

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but no GM is stupid enough to have his team tank for a top three pick and then keep the team that tanked.... Damn, that's stupid.

---

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You're saying to those guys... You guys suck and you need this top three pick to even be competitive. Even the notion of tanking is something that (if you were competitive) would make you furious.

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Exactly

[Guest Walter]

a conditionally kept top 3 pick?

Quote:

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This only works on your playstation.

Show me one instance, where a team tanked and kept all of it's players in place the next year (without having a great amount of injury).

---

Eh hem.

1) We had a great amount of injury.

2) Show me another team with such ownership chaos that cannot improve the team through spending.

3) Show me another team who can only keep their pick if it's top 3.

4) How frequentily does a draft this good come along anyhow?

We aren't just another lottery team (slightly more talented), in just another year (IMO #2 draft in last 10-12 years), with just another owner (ours will not spend to improve this team), with just another reputation (chaos other impact players and coaches won't want to join), with just another lottery pick (it's only top 3 protected).

You are exactly right, Diesel, we are not in playstation land! In playstation land you just hit RESET and there you have your superstar player/franchise center. We will NEVER get that player without this lottery pick! We are simply trying to make the best out of a bad situation. Our situation is B-A-D! It isn't just bad because we got a little hurt here and there. It's BAD because we can't significantly address our team needs without an unexpected but badly needed boon in capitol. Stern isn't going to help, our owners aren't going to help, other GMs aren't going to help, other GMs, coaches, and players aren't going to feel sorry for us and join us to help. Our ONLY choice as indicated by the absence of another "plan" is keeping our necessarily top 3 pick.

...

One can't worry themselves into inaction about a player's "confidence" when so much else is at stake. They'll either get a fire in their belly about it (great) or tuck their tail. The former can be channeled into next season. The later can be resolved with a 7'+ franchise-center monster and if not so be it.

W

[Diesel]

I know you were gone at the time, but you should go back and read my post on welfare mentality. You say we need another trip to the lottery. We've been there for the past three years. You say we will never get a franchise Center without a welfare pick... Well, we've gotten JJ with less. You say that we've been injured. Well, if we have then let our injuries do the work. However, don't go in with the mind set that 30 games in our team needs to start losing on purpose. Your thinking shows:

1. You don't know what it means to be competitive.

2. You've never been a ticket buying Hawks fan.

3. You don't understand the nature of this game.

4. You must be living in playstation land if you believe that the franchise can survive... just because we get a top 3 pick.. after we have tanked.

Like I have said over and over.. if your contention is to tank, propose getting some guys who are on the last leg of their contract, getting some draft picks, and some capspace and start completely over in the building of this team. However, don't continue to propose tanking with this team and inviting them back next season.

BTW, thanks for your none effort to find a team that has tanked and kept the same guys... Your silence in that matter has proven my point.

Now, let me swat down yours:

Show me another team with such ownership chaos that cannot improve the team through spending.

THE KNICKS, The GRIZZ

3) Show me another team who can only keep their pick if it's top 3.

There have been so many teams that have had picks that were top 3 protected in trades. If we don't get Indy's pick this year, next year it will be top three protected. Do you think Indy would do the same thing you propose.

4) How frequentily does a draft this good come along anyhow?

There is nothing special about this draft yet. I haven't heard Oden commit to leaving OSU Yet. The only draft that this draft will be better than is last years draft. The only reason for that is because of the age cap that Stern put in place. However, go down the line. This draft isn't as strong as Marvin's draft yet, and I don't think it will stack up to Chillz draft... Lord Knows it won't stack up to Lebron's draft... You're making fool's gold out of this draft on the basis that it was stronger than last years draft... But it can't even compare to the three drafts previous.

Let me put it in perspective for you:

Lebron, Darko, Mello, Wade, Bosh...

Howard, Okafor, Gordon, Livingston, Harris...

Bogut, Marvin, Deron, Paul, Felton...

[Guest Walter]

First, you typed alot of words again but simply did not make a credible argument up to this point, so I will have to spare myself the trouble of responding to rhetoric and nonsense. I will respond to the rest out of some spirit of charity.

Quote:

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Now, let me swat down yours:

Show me another team with such ownership chaos that cannot improve the team through spending.

Quote:

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THE KNICKS, The GRIZZ

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If you think the Knicks ownership won't spend, you need to look at their payroll. Just because Isaiah has been terrible...The Grizz? That's your example of how to contend without spending. They certainly CAN spend, something our owners cannot do.

Quote:

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3) Show me another team who can only keep their pick if it's top 3.

There have been so many teams that have had picks that were top 3 protected in trades. If we don't get Indy's pick this year, next year it will be top three protected. Do you think Indy would do the same thing you propose.

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Next year's draft isn't this years, but if Indy loses O'Neal to injury or for little or nothing, they somehow don't give us a pick this year, and they are in our won/loss position after 35 games, then yes I see them tanking.

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4) How frequentily does a draft this good come along anyhow?

There is nothing special about this draft yet. I haven't heard Oden commit to leaving OSU Yet.

---

But when he does it will be the 2nd best draft the last 10-12 years, 2nd only to the Lebron/Carmelo draft. Oden is only less celebrated than Lebron was and Durant is the truth. The fact that you put Bogut, MW, Paul, Deron draft in the same page of comparison drafts is embarrassing for you.

Diesel, you continue to have no plan and prefer to tank the tank plan. That's our choice certainly, but given you think like me, that MW isn't going to be special, you must also realize that this team won't contend without another superstar player much less a true starting quality center (if not franchise-center) and Pg prospect. You can't both downplay MW's ability AND up-play our team's capacity. Simply won't sell.

W

[AHF]

This draft has been identified for years as a particularly strong draft and the age cap just increased the expected depth available in it. I think it would run counter to the opinions of all the experts if this draft wasn't significantly stronger than Marvin's draft. This draft isn't being talked about simply because it is stronger than 2006.

For whatever that is worth. Personally, I would much rather have a pick in this draft than the 2005 draft.

[Diesel]

The truth of the matter is that this draft didn't become strong until the rule came out 2 years ago that stated that the youth couldn't jump from HS. This draft was not that special before that point. Oden would have gone first last year had the rule not been in place. Instead, he could possibly come out this year.

Noah didn't show up until last year. He could have gone out last year but he decided to stay a year.

There's lots of talk of Durant and another diaper dandy, but these guys are nowhere in the same talent league as Lebron, Wade, Carmello, Bosh.

This draft doesn't compare to Chillz draft. I say that because Al Jefferson was a 15 pick. JSmoove was a 17 pick. JR Smith was a 18 pick. JNelson was a 21 pick. Not to mention being lead in by Howard and lead out by Udriah.

This year's draft has 2 possible commodities:

Oden and Noah... the middle and late 1st doesn't compare to Chillz' draft.

Marvin's draft is stronger. I say when you consider Paul, Deron, Felton, Villanueva, Bynum, Robinson, Lee, Frye, May, and Bogut...

Come on now.

I think this draft to come will be top-heavy (if Oden commits) but I'm not dancing over much of thier mid and late round people.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

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Quote:

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I think you tell them to look behind them! When they see a 7'1" or 7'3" physical, defensive freak standing behind them then maybe they feel a little bolder, act a little bigger, and pretty soon have a swagger, something we'll never have as designed.

---

This only works on your playstation.

Show me one instance, where a team tanked and kept all of it's players in place the next year (without having a great amount of injury).

You ruin the confidence of a player by telling them that you have to lose for us to become a better franchise. The whole mode of a player is their competitive nature. Very few players make it to the NBA without being driven and without having some amount of confidence in thier abilities. Now, if it's possible to blame the coach.. then that's acceptable, but to tell a team to go out and lose on purpose is really placing the blame on the players. Players don't look at the game from the GM's perspective nor can they ever afford to do so... They must look at it from a player's point of view. A players point of view is to conquer...

Why do you fail to see the idoiticy of keep a team that just tanked a season?

---

Billy Knight is blazing new trails all the time! it's never been done before? that's no hill for a climber. it defies logic? logic is overrated.

[AHF]

You know all these guys won't make the leap but on nbadraft.net right now in the mid first round picks there are the following names that I think are pretty intriguing prospects:

Tyler Hansborough

Thaddeus Young

Tiago Splitter

Nick Fazekas

This is the deepest draft I can remember for big man prospects. It is also top heavy is that respect. 1-6 right now is a beast of a mock draft:

1. Greg Oden 7-0 250 C Ohio St. Fr.

2. Philadelphia Kevin Durant 6-10 220 SF Texas Fr.

3. Charlotte Brandan Wright 6-10 210 PF UNC Fr.

4. *Phoenix Joakim Noah 6-11 230 PF Florida Jr.

5. Seattle Hasheem Thabeet 7-3 265 C UConn Fr.

6. Boston Al Horford 6-9 245 PF Florida Jr.