LAST STRAW...

[Guest Walter]

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You're right, I don't have a plan...

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Your post should have ended there.

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If you mean by plan that we should ruin the confidence of:

1. The players who we expect back next season.

2. The fanbase who ultimately has to be persauded to invest in this team

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First about the most ridiculous notion that fans have any confidence in this team or support it by going to games and are thus apt to LOSE confidence in it and no longer go to games.

From USA Today:

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The attendance: The season before James arrived, the Cavaliers were last (29th) in the league in home attendance (11,497) and 27th in road attendance (16,080). This season they are seventh in home attendance (18,636) and fourth in road attendance (17,810).

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http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/...nus-james_x.htm

Without playing a single, GD game Lebron James took Cleveland from an average of 28th in attendence to 5.5th in attendence! We couldn't ask for more fan "confidence" than that! A super-hyped AND legit franchise pick like Lebron or Oden, likely even Durant instantly puts even a team like the Cavaliers in a city like Cleveland all over the NBA map!

Now as far as the players are concerned, if they are so fragile that they cannot fight through short-term adversity, then F#*k'em. Look at Oden right now. Tie one hand around his back and he still plays and fights. THAT'S what you want in your team. If management ties one hand behind the back of this season's team (by trading Lue for example), this season's team should still fight! Next season's team should have a chip on their shoulder and a 7'+ franchise-center looking over it! Those kinda teams GD win!!! Of course, this season's team is not fighting now, so what have we lost by tanking if they already are not fighting?

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My what a great difference a new coach can make!

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Yes, about one-third of the difference a franchise center AND a new coach make! Not to mention the difference a franchise center makes in getting a new coach.

You are toast!

W

[Sothron]

We need Oden. Period. There's no one since Lebron that has garned the attention and hype that Oden has gotten. He also is playing extremely well in college with a recovering wrist injury and looks to be the real deal.

The ONLY CHANCE we have until the ownership situation is finished in two to three YEARS is to draft a sure fire attention getter and ass sitter in the stands. Oden does this. The largest hole in our team is the total lack of a low post scorer and any kind of interior defense. Our 6'7" power forward with small arms isn't even close to doing it and we need a true honest to God center to do it.

Oden fits that bill. The only chance we have to get him is tank the rest of this horrible season and draft him. No other sport comes close to having the enormous swing around in franchise fortunes than the NBA has if you draft the right kid. Lebron, Wade, Carmello, Howard are just a few of the recent draftees who just totally turned their franchises around.

That is the only prayer we have. We need that sure fire can't miss prospect like Oden and pray our idiot of a GM isn't stupid enough to blow even that.

[drzachary]

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We need Oden. Period. There's no one since Lebron that has garned the attention and hype that Oden has gotten. He also is playing extremely well in college with a recovering wrist injury and looks to be the real deal.

The ONLY CHANCE we have until the ownership situation is finished in two to three YEARS is to draft a sure fire attention getter and ass sitter in the stands. Oden does this. The largest hole in our team is the total lack of a low post scorer and any kind of interior defense. Our 6'7" power forward with small arms isn't even close to doing it and we need a true honest to God center to do it.

Oden fits that bill. The only chance we have to get him is tank the rest of this horrible season and draft him. No other sport comes close to having the enormous swing around in franchise fortunes than the NBA has if you draft the right kid. Lebron, Wade, Carmello, Howard are just a few of the recent draftees who just totally turned their franchises around.

That is the only prayer we have. We need that sure fire can't miss prospect like Oden and pray our idiot of a GM isn't stupid enough to blow even that.

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The chances of us getting Oden are far less than the chance of us getting a top-3 pick. I think your point remains the same, though it's less of a sure-fire thing, when you substitute Durant or Noah (or whoever else becomes the flavor of the month by season's end.)

[Diesel]

Again,

You don't know and probably have thought of the reprecussions that going after ODEN at All cost will have on our players.

To tank is simple to give up.

Do you really think it's a good thing to give up on our current players and then ask them to come back next year. That's a bad plan in my estimation.

Moreover, you've pointed out the best case scenerio...

Let's consider some other possibilities...

1. Oden doesn't declare.

2. Oden does declare and just like PTLlast year and Chicago a few years ago, we go from being the worst team to getting the 4th pick.

3. We do tank, we get Oden, but we never recover the fan base making it easier for Belkin to move us to Las Vegas or St. Louis.

My feeling is that I would rather NOT Give up on the team and if we lose out, we lose out...

However, if you really want to tank, you should be calling for a rebuild... not give up and keep the same guys.

[Guest Walter]

I just showed you how a single player can, without playing a game, turn the fan's perception of fortunes around given that Lebron made Cleveland the 5th best attendence in the league after they were the 29th best the year prior.

So you're further on the end of the Diesel-ego plank, clinging to the poor players and their delicate sensibilities. If Paul Westhead can save us now, he can save us better next year with a top 3 pick and a training camp!

W

[Diesel]

First about Lebron:

I would hope that the States most recognized prep player in history would bring attendance up. I think that there was probably the same thing that happened when Dominique was traded to the Hawks. Or when Tmac when back to Orlando.

However, the question is how long did it take Cleveland to get into the playoffs and what did they have to do?

First off, with the exception of Big Z, Cleveland had to get rid of everybody that was there before Lebron. It wasn't because they couldn't get along with Lebron.. it was because they were losers. Once you have created a loser mentality in the franchise, you have to cut it off like a cancerous limb.

What you are suggesting is that we develop cancerous limbs inthe organization and just keep them.

I'll make your never learning from your mistakes portion in anothr post.

[Diesel]

Now Walter,

Here's the problem I see. You don't get it. You talk about tank here, tank there.. but when has a team tanked it way to championship aside from San Antonio?

I would say that a better route to championship is:

1. Good player development.

2. Good trades.

3. Good free agent pickups.

Most teams who have won championships have done it in this manner.

What the Hawks found out some time ago (obviously you missed it) is that when your franchise screws the players, then other players will not want to come...

When we had Nique, everybody wanted to play for the Hawks. When Kasten was the GM/President, everybody liked the direction that our teams were going. When Babcock took over and traded the face of the Hawks... It took 10 years for a free agent to every be interested in our team again.

Finally, we have gotten to a place where free agents consider the Hawks....and you want to tank...

At best, there's only a 25% chance to get Oden and that's if he goes into the draft at all.

That's too much to lose in Player confidence.

That's too much to lose in FAcy.

That's too much to lose in Fan Base.

[Diesel]

How did Bogut do in turning around the fans of Milwaukee?

Better yet, we got Marvin #2 a couple of years ago.. What has he done for our fan base?

If you haven't noticed... Our fans could care less about what we say we're going to do and they respect rookies even less.

If you care so much about Fanbase, you should have been begging for us to get AI... I guarantee you that we would have sellouts against Charlotte if we had AI!

But Atlanta fans don't get excited about 1 guy... comeon, not sense the guarantee!

[Guest Walter]

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First off, with the exception of Big Z, Cleveland had to get rid of everybody that was there before Lebron. It wasn't because they couldn't get along with Lebron.. it was because they were losers.

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Actually, they kept Boozer also (he left on his own accord), but regardless, they weren't "losers" more than THEY WERE NOT TALENTED and certainly whatever little talent they did have was very young.

http://www.dougstats.com/02-03/ClevelandCavaliers.html

Regardless, we don't "have" to do that as you suggest. We can lose enough without "getting rid of everybody".

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However, the question is how long did it take Cleveland to get into the playoffs and what did they have to do?

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Not long. It took 2 years but simply with Lebron ONLY they went from dead last in the NBA to 9th in their conference. That's better than we've done in 7 years and in one year Cleveland accomplished at least that with Lebron alone.

So much for loser mentality, even for a less talented team to begin with.

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Once you have created a loser mentality in the franchise, you have to cut it off like a cancerous limb.

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Kind of like how SA did it with the David Robinsøn-led Spurs.

You conveniently forget, this is not like any other year (great draft), we're not like any other lottery team (some very young, talented pieces), our ownership is not like any other ownership (will not spend to immprove this team), and our draft pick is not like any other draft pick (top 3 protected).

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What you are suggesting is that we develop cancerous limbs inthe organization and just keep them.

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No. I'm suggesting we undergo a half-season of Chemo-therapy and at the end of the year win the lottery allowing us to grow some limbs. Frankly, a 10-22 team cannot be accused of having all its limbs. A franchise-center should at least be a team's right leg. Instead of hopping around trying to beat two-legged teams, perhaps we should grow a franchise center and attach it to this frankenstein team?

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I'll make your never learning from your mistakes portion in anothr post.

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You can personal attack me all you want to Diesel. It's a clear sign you have no plan of your own and you cannot argue against "tanking". Tanking is not only the right plan, but the ONLY plan.

W

[Guest Walter]

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How did Bogut do in turning around the fans of Milwaukee?

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Go home with that half-ass [censored]!

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Better yet, we got Marvin #2 a couple of years ago.. What has he done for our fan base?

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Comparing Oden to Marvin?

GO HOME ROOKIE! You need to "tank" your arguments, win the argument lottery, and come back with a franchise-retort because you've HAD IT!

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If you haven't noticed... Our fans could care less about what we say we're going to do and they respect rookies even less.

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Then why were you so worried about them in the first place?!? YOU BROUGHT IT UP! YOU BROUGHT UP YOUR "CONCERN" OVER THE STATE OF FAN CØNFIDENCE I-F WE "TANKED"!!! Don't run from your own argument now that it's been suffficiently turned against you!

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If you care so much about Fanbase, you should have been begging for us to get AI... I guarantee you that we would have sellouts against Charlotte if we had AI!

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What? I don't even understand the words that are comin' out of your mouth! G-O H-O-M-E!

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But Atlanta fans don't get excited about 1 guy.

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'Nique.

W

[jerrywest]

I get back from vacation, and it looks like Walter is suddenly posting 1,000 posts a day. Whats going on? Looks like somebody black magicked my hawks. Smoove for all star! Suddenly, his injury looks like the best thing to happen to his career. Losing to Hornets is not a straw. Its 5000 pound Mother of all Bombs. Unfortunately, some chose to sleep through it.

[Guest Walter]

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I get back from vacation, and it looks like Walter is suddenly posting 1,000 posts a day. Whats going on?

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Well, as far as I'm concerned I am gettin gover surgery and thought of no batter way to take it easy than to stress out over the Hawks.

W

[Diesel]

Well if all you can say is go home, there's really no discussion here Walter.

See you fail to see the truth. The only thing that will bring out fans in Atlanta is winning and not just winning on the court but a winning mindset in the owners box.

Why do you think the Falcons are so popular now. Arthur Blank is well respected amoung the people of Atlanta because he has goals, he sets goals, and he does what it takes to meet those goals. At no point did Blank say: We will tank this season.

In fact, he actually traded UP to get the player he wanted.

And Falcons fans respect that.

However, we have done this tank bid before.

Remember the Babcock in 4 years plan...

The destruction of the 50 win teams of Lenny...

Bringing in JR

Bringing in Theo.

Bringing in Big Dog.

Bringing in SAR.

And the guarantee.

Fans will not back Atlanta because they get another lottery pick?? We've been in the Lottery for the past three years Walter... Where are the fans?

Fans will back Atlatna when they see that we are serious about winning.

Being serious about winning does not mean that we tank our season? If we do that, I guarantee it will take three years to sell the number of season tickets that we have sold this year.

But then again, I must remember... Walter doesn't go to Hawks games. Walter doesn't watch Hawks games. All Walter does is watch the boxscore.

[Guest Walter]

I am comparing Oden to Lebron. I am even comparing Durant to Lebron MUCH more favorably than either Bogut or MW compare to Lebron. Durant is THAT good.

I keep saying "go home" because you have utterly no argument much less plan. So yes, there "is no discussion here" as you offer nothing of value as to why anything you propose is better than much less mutually exclusive of a top 3 pick.

W

[AHF]

I do have to say that if we drafted Oden, I think it would give the franchise instant credibility around the league and with the fans. Not at the same level as Lebron, but close. Getting Oden is a long-shot but would be the biggest thing to improve our franchise since trading for Nique.

[Johnnybravo4]

Dude no one knows who Greg Oden is except for basketball junkies like us. He goes to Ohio State, for god's sake. He doesn't have the personality of Lebron. He isn't good looking like Kobe, he isn't Flashy like Wade or Carmelo. He is a boring Patrick Ewing clone. We aren't going to sell out Phillips because some Grizzly Adams looking 19 year old who avg 14/10 at a football school is coming to town.

On a side note. When the LA Galaxy signed the washed up David Beckham, they sold 2000 season tickets in 30 minutes! Sort of reminds me of the impact that AI could have brought here. And AI isn't even washed up.

[Sothron]

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I do have to say that if we drafted Oden, I think it would give the franchise instant credibility around the league and with the fans. Not at the same level as Lebron, but close. Getting Oden is a long-shot but would be the biggest thing to improve our franchise since trading for Nique.

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Thank you. The only hope we have is in Oden. Period. And the only way to get a shot at him is to tank and take our chances.

All this talk about fragile player egos is just silly. These guys can be easily convinced with a dominant young big in Oden that their life just became easier and that all the injuries this season just destroyed any chance they had without him. But WITH him and staying healthy...watch out!

[Diesel]

ONLY the basketball junkies know about Oden.

Go to 5 points and ask people their thoughts on Oden playing for the Hawks and leave it like that. I betcha 8 out of 10 times, they will say Oden Who?

As far as the slight on Bogut... I think Bogut was probably the most Hyped pick since Lebron. And there was more hype for Lebron than will ever be for Oden.

Remember, Lebron had commercials on TV.

Remember, Lebron got in trouble for having a Hummer.

Remember, Lebron already had a Kobe comparison going on his HS year.

Remember, Lebron's HS games got picked up BY ESPN.

Oden is indeed an old looking guy... But Oden missed the first few weeks of Basketball at OSU and I betcha that 90% of the people who go to Hawks games now doesn't know that and 60% knows nothing about Oden.

[Sothron]

You have to be kidding me. Oden has been the most highly prized prospect in basketball for at least the last two years and has been talked about for years. I guarantee you the closer we get to a draft the more you'll see his name out there. If we drafted him it would give the Hawks an injection of media attention and credibility we haven't had since Dikemebe signed here (at least).

[drzachary]

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ONLY the basketball junkies know about Oden.

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If by 'junkies' you mean everyone that follows the NBA, NCAA and watches/reads ESPN, then yes.