fans overreacting . . . . AGAIN !!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL . . but this time, it's justified.

The loss at Indiana with a sick JJ didn't bother me much, because I saw the team put forth some effort in the 1st half. The offensive rebounds the Pacers got all game, killed them. Stuff like that can be fixed. Teams lose bad road games like that all the time ( see the Lakers last night, with Kobe going to the locker room well before the game was over )

But like the rest of you, last night was UNACCEPTABLE, no matter who was out for us. People usually lose their jobs afer a loss like that. That was essentially the Hornets 2nd unit that ran us off the floor last night. And we couldn't do anything about that. That's also a team that has lost more than we have in the past 20 games, and we made them look like the Pistons. On the road is one thing. But you can't play like that in front of your home fans, even if it were only 10,000 there ( probably less in actual attendance ).

It is a shame that all of these injuries have derailed this team like a bomb on a railroad track. That is still the main reason why we're in this situation. But a loss like the one we had last night has to have some reprocussions to it.

Either you fire the coach, or the coach has to completely shake up this lineup to put some people on notice. But most important, I think the coach needs to seriously rethink what he's telling this team to do on offense. We have so many people out, that it may be best to do what Diesel has been suggesting, and just let these guys run. Forget the set offense in which we wait 17 - 20 seconds to shoot the ball. Just let them run, and the first person who has a good look at the basket, take it. That's what Memphis has done, since they fired Fratello. And it's made them a much better basketball team, and a more entertaining team to watch.

When I look at this team now, the people who have earned the right to be in the starting lineup, are JJ, Shelden, Speedy and Childress.

It's time to sit Marvin and bring him off the bench. If Woody is still the coach, and this isn't done Friday, I just wonder where Woody's head is at. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. If Marvin can't get it going, you can't keep putting him in that starting lineup. Even if Dijon takes some of his playing time, then so be it. Maybe that will light a fire under young Marvin.

Woody is not a bad coach . . . he's just a stubborn one. That's the conclusion I came to last night. I still don't have a problem with his substitutions. I don't have a problem with his defensive gameplans. But he's set in his ways, especially when it comes to offensive philosophy, much like Larry Brown was with the Knicks last year. And if your way doesn't maximize the talents of your players, then they might not be the problem. Maybe Marvin will blossom under some other coach. But Woody has to put him in positions to be successful. And right now, he's just not doing that for Marvin.

Instead of adjusting his coaching philosophy to fit the talents of his players, he wants them to adjust to him, and play the way he wants them to play. You know . . . "play the right way"

Rick Majerus called Marvin "James Worthy with a jumpshot". Well, those of us who are old enough to remember how Worthy played, know that Worthy was a tremendous open court player, who later turned into a pretty good 15 feet and in player. Maybe Marvin is an open court player that needs to be in a running system, in order for his talents to be maximized.

LOL . . but if we don't run, even after made baskets, Marvin won't be James Worthy with a jumpshot. He'll be James Posey with an inconsistent jumpshot.

How does Michael Jackson say it . . . "I'm looking at the Man in the Mirror."

I think it's time for a few Hawks, and the coach, to do just that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And let me make this clear. All of you who are suggesting that we move certain players, may be doing this team more harm than good. These are still young players that need time to develop their NBA games. Trading away the young talent, for againg veterans who may or may not improve us, isn't the way to go.

The Chicago Bulls made this mistake, when they essentially let Elton Brand, Brad Miller, and Ron Artest go way too soon. They traded all of those guys for draft picks or to get who they thought would be an impact player, in Jalen Rose. You can even add my boy Trenton Hassell to that mix, seeing that he's turned into one of the leagues top 10 defensive guards. Those moves essentially stunted the Bulls growth for a total of 6 years, before their new talent was able to develop.

Marvin is signed through 2010. It is in our best interest to keep him around, even if he doesn't turn out to be anything special. He'll, at the worst, be a decent player in a few years, much like Al Harrington was during his stay at Indiana. The last thing we want to do, is trade him away, and end up talking about him being a star in some other system, like some of you talk about Diaw now. Marvin is in his 2nd year. A decision about moving him shouldn't be made until the trade deadline in year 4.

Smoove, right now, is untouchable. In fact, if he comes back and plays well the rest of the season, the Hawks should seriously think about locking this guy up in the offseason with a big contract ( 5 years - 55 million ). Make sure he's a Hawk for the next 6 years at least.

To me, Childress is also untouchable right now. He's a guy that this team needs. He's our version of Andres Nocioni right now. Our young Tayshawn Prince.

The people who think teams are going to trade a good PG or a good center for either Marvin or Chill, are fooling themselves. A guy like Jamal Magloire is NOT good. If he was, he'd be the undisputed starting center in Portland, and logging major minutes.

We can keep these 3 together, and still acquire the pieces we need in the future, without breaking up this core and completely starting over.

ZaZa is expendible. A team needing a decent scoring center ( New Jersey ) might consider dealing with us. LOL . . no, we're not going to somehow get Marcus Williams out of that deal, but we may could get a Josh Boone or a Hassan Adams, guys who could help us defensively.

Salim is expendible, no doubt on this.

But talk about moving Smoove, Marvin or Chill, should be null and void right now.

But moving the coach . . that's a different story.

[TexasPete]

Your ZaZa deal is hilarious. So, you don't think we could get Marcus Williams for Pachulia? Rod Thorn would send a Falcon Jet to Atlanta right now if we offered that deal. First, bigs like Z are a hot commodity in the league, the reason why most people didn't like the Ford for Charlie V. deal. When you get a big that can score and rebounds OK, and is 22, you keep him.

Second, Marcus Williams isn't proving to be that good. He averages 6.7 points per game, a lousy 2.9 assists, and has almost as many turnovers per game as assists (1.67). Plus, Marcus is one of the worst defenders on the planet. This dude can't stop anybody off the dribble and has no desire to improve his defense.

Z is ONE year older than Marcus and light years ahead in development. Oh, and Marcus shoots 39% from the field.

You act like Z is some stiff amd Williams some great PG. That isn't the case. Rod Thron would pull the trigger on that deal all day, every day. Even BK isn't that stupid. And saying a Josh Boone MIGHT be a fit for Z???? Lunacy. Yeah, lets take an unproven rookie coming off surgery for our guy is 22 and averages 12/8. Josh Boone will NEVER average 12/8. Come on man, you can do better than this stuff. Marcus Williams is a Hawk if Z is offered for him. After Thorn gets done laughing, that deal happens.

[Guest Walter]

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LOL . . but this time, it's justified.

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It seems they, being fans whom you insist were "overreacting" time and time again, were the right ones and you were not.

The whole "Woody is not a bad coach, he's just a stubborn one" is about as inane as it comes and is simply another attempt to justify either retaining him or defending one's own laughable argument that this team is really O.K. and all those who have seen otherwise are as you say "overreacting".

W

[mudderfudder77]

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The Chicago Bulls made this mistake, when they essentially let Elton Brand, Brad Miller, and Ron Artest go way too soon.

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I agree with everything except the Ron Artest part. Ron Artest was traded because he was insane. The guy tried to get a job at Best Buy using Jerry Krause as a reference, destroyed team equipment, and teammates and staff were worried about what the losing was doing to his mental well being.

For the most part Jerry Krause destroyed all that he had created - but the Ron Artest trade was about more than basketball.

[exodus]

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The guy tried to get a job at Best Buy using Jerry Krause as a reference,

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OMG that is classic!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Your ZaZa deal is hilarious. So, you don't think we could get Marcus Williams for Pachulia? Rod Thorn would send a Falcon Jet to Atlanta right now if we offered that deal. First, bigs like Z are a hot commodity in the league, the reason why most people didn't like the Ford for Charlie V. deal. When you get a big that can score and rebounds OK, and is 22, you keep him.

Second, Marcus Williams isn't proving to be that good. He averages 6.7 points per game, a lousy 2.9 assists, and has almost as many turnovers per game as assists (1.67). Plus, Marcus is one of the worst defenders on the planet. This dude can't stop anybody off the dribble and has no desire to improve his defense.

Z is ONE year older than Marcus and light years ahead in development. Oh, and Marcus shoots 39% from the field.

You act like Z is some stiff amd Williams some great PG. That isn't the case. Rod Thron would pull the trigger on that deal all day, every day. Even BK isn't that stupid. And saying a Josh Boone MIGHT be a fit for Z???? Lunacy. Yeah, lets take an unproven rookie coming off surgery for our guy is 22 and averages 12/8. Josh Boone will NEVER average 12/8. Come on man, you can do better than this stuff. Marcus Williams is a Hawk if Z is offered for him. After Thorn gets done laughing, that deal happens.

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LOL @ pete . . I never said that at all. But I think you overvalue ZaZa. He's played pretty good this year for us. But like the rest of the people on here, he shouldn't be a starting center. To me, he's a lot like Ty Lue. A good, one-dimensional player to bring off the bench. But when he starts, you may get some good, but you'll probably get some bad too.

I only brought up names like Boone and Adams, for the sole fact that they could be brought in to be role players for this team. Much like those Haywood and Hayes rumors floating around the other day.

We fans value our talent, more than the rest of the league does. If ZaZa was seen as a good player in this league, I'm sure the Hawks would get some interesting offers for him, especially from borderline playoff or championship contender type teams.

As yourself this Pete. What team could ZaZa legitimately start on, either at center or power forward? And which one of those teams would could make a legit deal for him? Don't be surprised if you can't find too many.

[TroyMcClure]

Just be honest. How old are you? Woody is not a bad coach?

I would not have respected myself if I had read any further.

What world do you live in? There is no excuse for anyone who thinks Woody is a good coach. There is no evidence to back it up. None. So stop lying to yourself and the rest of us.

[TroyMcClure]

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The guy tried to get a job at Best Buy using Jerry Krause as a reference,

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OMG that is classic!

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Chad Johnson does the same thing. From time to time he fills out an application to see if he could get the job. It seems less crazy coming from him. More for fun. I think Artest might actually suit up for Best Buy!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Walter, I posted the thread Tuesday, because you guys were overreacting about a road game in which JJ was sick. The Pacers were heavy favorites over us, and we still had people out. The Indy game was a game we probably don't win anyway. But we at least gave a good effort for about 30 minutes in that game. But we couldn't make shots, and then the defense completely failed us from the mid-3rd quarter on. A loss like that doesn't concern me, against a team over .500

I've never been "pro-Woody". I just didn't think he was the main reason for the demise of the Hawks, like most of you think he is.

And Woody isn't a horrible coach. If he were a bad coach, we wouldn't have started the season 4 - 1 . . had a good shot to be 6 - 1 . . and were right around .500 at the end of November. Bad coaches don't have teams playing that well at the start of seasons.

While you, and others still complained about the team, I didn't see you, or anybody else, talking about "tanking the season" back on December 6th, when we pulled out the miracle win @ Denver, and we were an 8 - 9 ballclub.

Even with Woody's "shortcomings", this team was competitive on a nightly basis, had the 8th seed in the East, and had everybody believing that we might have a shot at this after all. So, in essence, we were OK.

I refuse to be the hypocrite on this site, and act like the injuries didn't have a HUGE effect to how this season has turned out. I've always given Woody the benefit of the doubt, even if the rest of you had always given up on him. But he, and the team, were obviously doing something right at the beginning of the year.

A healthy Hawks team wouldn't be 10 - 23 right now. You know it and I know it, and the rest of the people on this site know it. We would realistically be around a .500 ballclub ( 15 - 18 . . 16 - 17 ).

My opinion has changed about Woody, because I see now that he coaches one way, and hasn't effectively adjusted how he coaches this team, to compensate for the injuries. I don't like how he's handling Marvin. I don't like how he's not adjusted the offense, to better suit JJ and get him better looks.

Smoove was a big part of the halfcourt offense, because he would handle the ball in the high post. Without Smoove, this offense has been totally stagnant. He could've easily inserted Chill in the starting lineup, and probably kept this ship somewhat afloat. But he kept Marvin in the starting lineup, and it's hurt the team. I put that all on Woody . . unless he's being told by management to start Marvin, no matter what.

Outside of the injuries, this team would've been OK, even with Woody at coach. He had a system that fit the skills of the players he was giving heavy minutes to in the beginning of the season. But when injuries hit, you have to be able to adjust. And he hasn't. Woody is a victim of circumstance, in regards to the injuries. But he hasn't tried to switch things up to compensate for them.

And frankly, if he can't put Marvin in the right situations to maximize his ability, the he's not the right guy for Marvin, which makes him the wrong guy for the Hawks in general.

You complain about the talent, the coach, the GM, and everybody else. Fact is, everybody isn't at fault here. This team is young, and now we're hurting bad. And just like the Hornets, we would've been OK, if everybody was healthy.

Woody probably isn't going to be shown the door anytime soon, so I want to see him switch things up to spark this team. Not keep things the same. If he doesn't pull Marvin out of that starting lineup, that'll tell me a lot about Woody and his stubborness.

Starting with the Clipper game, 3 - 3 over the next 6 games is what I said the Hawks need to be, to stabilize this team somewhat, until Smoove possibly gets back next week.

We're 1 - 2 right now, with games vs Detroit, vs Boston, and @ Minnesota coming up. After suffering the worst loss of the season, we're truly going to see what kind of heart and effort this team has. We'll probably lose against the Pistons ( but give a better effort ). Boston and Minnesota are winnable games, if the Hawks play their best.

We'll see how everything turns out.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Just be honest. How old are you? Woody is not a bad coach?

I would not have respected myself if I had read any further.

What world do you live in? There is no excuse for anyone who thinks Woody is a good coach. There is no evidence to back it up. None. So stop lying to yourself and the rest of us.

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Troy, just because I said that he wasn't a bad coach, doesn't mean that he's a good coach. I'll never say that Woody is a good coach. Coaching wise, I'll give Woody a C to C-. I've seen far worst coaches than Woody in my lifetime.

[Guest Walter]

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While you, and others still complained about the team, I didn't see you, or anybody else, talking about

"tanking the season"

back on December 6th, when we pulled out the miracle win @ Denver, and we were an 8 - 9 ballclub.

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Duh? What's your point exactly? We were then competing on the edge of a knife. We consistently were running JJ into the ground with 44 minute games, utterly no second option, and an easy schedule at the time. The knife cut us. making us a bottom 10 team into a bottom 5 team. At this point, with no real shot at anything but perhaps a few meaningless moral victories, an only top3 protected pick, a now legitimate shot of retaining that pick, no means to significantly improve the team given current ownership and legal restrictions, and the best (big) draft in 10-12 years, it was time to fire up the tank engines. Not before, but then. Arguing that those of us who are calling for tanking now, when it's feasible and the only option to improve this team, didn't do so when we were mediocre, not just sucking, is a silly little argument that does not suggest that the very time those of us called for tanking wasn't the precisely right moment. If it wasn't the precisely right moment it seems it was d@mn close. Far closer than anything you have proposed. If I recal your words correctly, "Woody is a good coach, just stubborn". Enough said.

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We'll see how everything turns out.

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I would prefer a little help from management to help ensure "everything turns out" so that we have the best shot at a top 3 pick. No more Bobby Sura moral victories only to lose out on Oden, who projects better than Dwight Howard.

W

[TheDude]

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The guy tried to get a job at Best Buy using Jerry Krause as a reference,

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OMG that is classic!

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Chad Johnson does the same thing. From time to time he fills out an application to see if he could get the job. It seems less crazy coming from him. More for fun. I think Artest might actually suit up for Best Buy!

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can you imagine Artest actually coming in to work doing stocking or something...coming in bright and early ready to work, and starts going at it unstocking the truck like he's some regular dude.....some guy says "wow, you're artest, cool."...and artest says "get back to work."

[AHF]

I see the scrawny manager coming in and telling him to start stocking the DVDs while Artest is chewing the fat with another employee. Then I see artest standing up, flexing a few muscles and suggesting that the manager do it himself. Then I see the manager stocking the DVDs while Artest yaps about his next rap album.

[mudderfudder77]

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The guy tried to get a job at Best Buy using Jerry Krause as a reference,

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OMG that is classic!

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Chad Johnson does the same thing. From time to time he fills out an application to see if he could get the job. It seems less crazy coming from him. More for fun. I think Artest might actually suit up for Best Buy!

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Artest was a notorious big spender who blew pretty much all of his rookie contract on his "posse". In his second year (in the off-season) he came up with the brilliant idea of being able to save money on electronics by getting a job at Best Buy and using the employee discount to buy electronics for family and friends. Best Buy manager called the reference on his application (Jerry Krauses secretary answered) and the Bulls quickly put the kabosh on that idea.