Trade Smoove?

[gsuteke]

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that list from 1 to 10 looks about right. I'm not sure who Crawford is.

that was a pretty strong HS class.

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He's that fmaous NBA ref. I guess he still had NCAA eligibility.

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famous like Ed Herculee?

[TexasPete]

Come on, your smarter than that post. If you go to a game and you watch Shelden and Marvin and you come away with the feeling that Shelden is in Marvins league...Well, I can't help you. Shelden is 6th in a class of DOGS. DOGS with fleas. The worst draft in memory.

Shelden looks like he can't hang at even a basic level right now. He has no way to score...assuming an opponent doesn't leave him wide open for a 14 footer. His athleticism is totally below NBA standards. No post game. No more blocked shots. Poor defense. He does OK on the defensive boards.

I know you are in the Marvin sucks crowd. But if you were to ask ANY NBA team who they would prefer to have...Shelden or Marvin...there would not be ONE team that valued Shelden. Not one. Because Marvin is a lot more gifted and he is 3 years younger.

I hope Shelden can eventully be a decent pro. But right now that is a stretch because at 23 he is supposed to be further along. Our coaching staff is pissed royally at him because he wasn't boxing out yesterday, and his man killed him off the dribble. They wanted him to force his guy left because he was getting into our paint with ease. If Shelden wasn't on a team with such a short rotation, he wouldn't be playing because I sit right behind the bench and I can tell you they are not happy with him at all. They jerked him out 3 times for the following:

1. Ignoring JJ in the low block who had Telfair on him. For some reason, not only does he not throw down into the post, he actually tries to beat his man off the dribble 20 feet from the basket. He is stripped and instead of exploiting a mismatch, the Celts get an easy two. Shelden sits immediately.

2. Got beat for two layups in the 3rd, both off the dribble. He is out.

3. Leon Powe killed him for a rebound when Shelden was just out hustled. SW sits.

I took a guy to the game who played at Michigan State and he had never seen Shelden. Said that he was easily the worst player on the court, brought nothing to the table. He was right. I wanted Shelden to be good because we needed him. But, unlike a young athletic player with upside, Shelden can only do so much because his body is not athletic in a league where athleticism reigns. Nice young man. Poor draft pick, in a draft where value lied with Foye, Roy, and Gay. And we already had enough Gay types so Foye/Roy were the only guys we should have considered.

[gutz]

Dude your dead wrong in saying that Shelden brings NOTHING to the table for the Hawks. That is laughable! The guy is averaging 6.5pts, 6.2rb, 1stl and 1blk in only 22min. a game as a rookie. He plays good overall defense, can rebound very well, shoots the ball very well from outside, awesome FT shooter at 87% for the year, and has some good post moves if and when he ever gets the opportunity. We need to run more plays for him. To me I can see him being a Carlos Boozer type player easily. With more minutes this guy can produce period!

[exodus]

It is obvious that you have completely different standards for Marvin and Shelden. No matter what Marvin does poorly you have an excuse ready made. He played 38 minutes and only managed 8 points and 3 rebounds. He can't make open jumpers and his turnover rate is a joke.

And I keep hearing about how he is a good shooter but I am not seeing it on the court. He is being left open for his jumpers consistently because teams know he isn't making them.

I don't hold Marvin responsible for being picked 2nd. I do hold him responsible for what he does on the court and so far this season he has been garbage.

And FYI before you came on the board last year Diesel had me label as a Marvin apologist. I was willing to cut Marvin a little slack since he was a rookie who was seemed to be deferring to veterans. However now i am judging him by his play and so far his play has sucked.

[drzachary]

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It is obvious that you have completely different standards for Marvin and Shelden. No matter what Marvin does poorly you have an excuse ready made. He played 38 minutes and only managed 8 points and 3 rebounds. He can't make open jumpers and his turnover rate is a joke.

And I keep hearing about how he is a good shooter but I am not seeing it on the court. He is being left open for his jumpers consistently because teams know he isn't making them.

I don't hold Marvin responsible for being picked 2nd. I do hold him responsible for what he does on the court and so far this season he has been garbage.

And FYI before you came on the board last year Diesel had me label as a Marvin apologist. I was willing to cut Marvin a little slack since he was a rookie who was seemed to be deferring to veterans. However now i am judging him by his play and so far his play has sucked.

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I don't think the draft pick position should be relevant at all to the discussion of Marvin meeting expectations or not. How have similar players with similar levels of experience at his age, in similar situations done? That's really the only way to compare him to other players and set expectations.

[Guest Walter]

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So what is the bar for a

#2 pick with the experience level that Marvin had

, and his age? There aren't a whole lot of comparable selections in history.

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Carmelo Anthony would come to mind as a high but reasonable bar. A 3rd overall pick with the same amount of major college experience (both an NCAA championship).

Simply the fact that one has to ask what is the lowest expectation for a #2 pick demonstrates just how low MW has sunk and how desperately people want to defend his to date poor performance relative to his franchise Pg draft counterparts.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I don't think the draft pick position should be relevant at all to the discussion of Marvin meeting expectations or not. How have similar players with similar levels of experience at his age, in similar situations done? That's really the only way to compare him to other players and set expectations.

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You can't keep hiding him behind his age when players with LESS experience drafted FAR later consistently are outperforming him AND all 3 franchise Pgs drafted immediately after him are far better.

It's not like we didn't know MW's age when we drafted him, but do you think any credible GM would repeat the draft as it stands using his "youth" relative to experience as an excuse? Hell NO!!! No credible GM would! They'd run from drafting him in the top 5 as he is progressing at a retarded pace for a #2 overall pick with his experience level.

W

[exodus]

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How have similar players with similar levels of experience at his age, in similar situations done?

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Gerald Green is the same age and was drafted out of HS. He has had less playing time than marvin since he plays behind Paul Pierce. He was drafted 18th the same year as Marvin and he dominated the Hawks yesterday. He would have burned us more if he hadn't gotten in foul trouble.

Jefferson was also drafted out of HS and has had multiple injuries absenses. He also dominated the Hawks yesterday.

At this point i just want to see Marvin show a pulse, act like he actually wants to play basketball. I don't want to see him dive into people and commit offensive fouls every time he posts up. I don't want to see 22% of his shots inside blocked. I don't want to see him bricking open jumpers consistently...etc

Right now he certainly doesn't belong in the starting lineup based on his play.

[AHF]

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It is obvious that you have completely different standards for Marvin and Shelden. No matter what Marvin does poorly you have an excuse ready made. He played 38 minutes and only managed 8 points and 3 rebounds. He can't make open jumpers and his turnover rate is a joke.

And I keep hearing about how he is a good shooter but I am not seeing it on the court. He is being left open for his jumpers consistently because teams know he isn't making them.

I don't hold Marvin responsible for being picked 2nd. I do hold him responsible for what he does on the court and so far this season he has been garbage.

And FYI before you came on the board last year Diesel had me label as a Marvin apologist. I was willing to cut Marvin a little slack since he was a rookie who was seemed to be deferring to veterans. However now i am judging him by his play and so far his play has sucked.

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I don't think the draft pick position should be relevant at all to the discussion of Marvin meeting expectations or not. How have similar players with similar levels of experience at his age, in similar situations done? That's really the only way to compare him to other players and set expectations.

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Bear in mind with Gerald Green that Green was expected to go as high as #3 overall for most of the draft and then slipped ala Josh Smith. I guess if Portland hadn't traded down and had taken Green where many pundits expected (at #3) Green would be a fair comparison but because he slipped he is not for some people on this board. Oh well.

[AHF]

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that list from 1 to 10 looks about right. I'm not sure who Crawford is.

that was a pretty strong HS class.

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He's that fmaous NBA ref. I guess he still had NCAA eligibility.

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Joe Crawford is a shooting guard for the University of Kentucky. He has not lived up to the hype so far but he is a good player. He is a spotty perimeter shooting but a strong, athletic guard who is at his best taking the ball to the hole. He is solid defensively. He will probably be in the NBA after 4 years in college.

[drzachary]

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So what is the bar for a

#2 pick with the experience level that Marvin had

, and his age? There aren't a whole lot of comparable selections in history.

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Carmelo Anthony would come to mind as a high but reasonable bar. A 3rd overall pick with the same amount of major college experience (both an NCAA championship).

Simply the fact that one has to ask what is the lowest expectation for a #2 pick demonstrates just how low MW has sunk and how desperately people want to defend his to date poor performance relative to his franchise Pg draft counterparts.

W

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So, Carmelo is the standard. Yikes.

I'm glad you're not a GM. You would give up on 99% of players that you drafted!

[drzachary]

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I don't think the draft pick position should be relevant at all to the discussion of Marvin meeting expectations or not. How have similar players with similar levels of experience at his age, in similar situations done? That's really the only way to compare him to other players and set expectations.

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You can't keep hiding him behind his age when players with LESS experience drafted FAR later consistently are outperforming him AND all 3 franchise Pgs drafted immediately after him are far better.

It's not like we didn't know MW's age when we drafted him, but do you think any credible GM would repeat the draft as it stands using his "youth" relative to experience as an excuse? Hell NO!!! No credible GM would! They'd run from drafting him in the top 5 as he is progressing at a retarded pace for a #2 overall pick with his experience level.

W

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Your use of the word 'apologist' is fairly revealing, here. It's normally a word we use to attack those who would defend criminals and dictators. However, you're using it to attack someone who thinks we should give a young player a chance to grow. You, on the other hand, are hoping for his failure. Congratulations.

Progressing at a retarded pace? What does that even mean? Did you note notice his steady progression last year? He's had some problems this year, too, but... lots of sophomore players don't immediately improve on their freshman numbers.

Hey, I wanted a PG too, but you know what??? We didn't get one. Get over it already.

[AtLaS]

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Um, but you are a member of the group giving him flack, and you are one of the ones putting unrealistic expectations upon him. So.... stop?

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I have not casted any unrealistic expectations on Marvin. It's the national media that vastly overhyped him coming into the draft, and BK for selecting him so high.

[AtLaS]

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So all of your posts should include a bibliography. Please include this in the future to avoid copyright infringement.

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No I said that it's funny how EVERYTHING I have stated that Marvin can't do, is exactly what draftexpress had BEFORE the draft. Last night was the first time I ever looked up that draftexpress scouting report, and they were spot on with everything I have seen from Marvin..

[Guest Walter]

in awhile (at leat 8 or so years). So that is all we have to compare to MW in this regard. It certainly shames MW terribly that the only comperably experienced and drafted Sf in the last 8 or so years produces like TWO of MW. I can't change the fact that it is embarassing for MW. As far as BK is concerned, while the draft involving MW was a lesser one than the one involving Carmelo (at least at the top), Paul and Deron certainly seem to be producing quite well at an important position.

What would be your standard in a player for MW?

W

[drzachary]

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in awhile (at leat 8 or so years). So that is all we have to compare to MW in this regard. It certainly shames MW terribly that the only comperably experienced and drafted Sf in the last 8 or so years produces like TWO of MW. I can't change the fact that it is embarassing for MW. As far as BK is concerned, while the draft involving MW was a lesser one than the one involving Carmelo (at least at the top), Paul and Deron certainly seem to be producing quite well at an important position.

What would be your standard in a player for MW?

W

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I don't have a standard. I'm just curious what players you think we should compare him to. I'm content with his development. Obviously, I wish it was faster, and I think it would be, with a better coach.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Marvin is the new scapegoat because all these fickle fans who were bashing Smoove now realize how important he was to this team.

They realize he was more than highlight dunks. His presence changed our interior defense. His rebounding, his ball distribution, and high energy is all missed.

But these people didn't appreciate it until they lost it.

Now that they can't bash him anymore, they bash Marvin.

When Marvin develops someone else will be the victim.

It's a never ending cycle when dealing with the fickle fans of ATL teams.

[AHF]

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It's a never ending cycle when dealing with the fickle fans of ATL teams.

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Mostly when they are losing, though. Winning would avoid a lot of the second-guessing and scrutiny.

[Guest Walter]

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Marvin is the new scapegoat because all these fickle fans who were bashing Smoove now realize how important he was to this team.

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I've always supported Smoove FAR more than MW, but mainly because of their shared position and what I believe is JS' greater potential and impact which we've now observed). I've always supported the Hawk franchise more than any one player. Hell, I recently proposed including my favorite Hawk (Batista) in a trade and have suggested trading even my 2nd fave (Josh Smith) due to the team's Sf glut if the right deal came along. I don't like doing that, but I would if I thought it would help the fanchise.

I admittedly don't coddle player or prospects and I feel I call'em like I see'em. I believe fan bias living in team fantasy-land in these instances is more detrimental than beneficial. But I am consistent and not fickle for whatever that is worth to you. Not worth much to you I imagine.

W

[TexasPete]

People here were killing Josh Smith a couple months back. He has been better since and I hear crickets about Smoove now. Of course, he will have some setbacks as all young players do and then we will get to hear more about his failures.

The part about MW being "embarrassed" or "shamed" is about as comical as any comment ever posted on this site. Really, a 20-year old kid with millions of dollars in the bank, single, traveling around living the NBA life...with more cash in his pocket than any poster on this site will EVER have in his life...I'd say Marvin has done OK in this world to this point, and I will bet he will end up making quite a few posters eat crow. If Marvin should feel emabarrased or shame...give me a dose of some of that...I'll shame myself all day for that kind of action.

In the end, some people on this board just don't get it. Its OK to be somewhat disappointed that Marvin hasn't just gotten off at this point. I can see that. But to hurl vicious comments about him being shamed, embarrassing, a loser, etc...You guys really do need to get a life. NEWSFLASH: Despite the highest hopes, 20-year olds don't always set the world on fire. Walter, my guess is that at age 20 you weren't doing jack squat. Marvin has you beat now, tomorrow, and in the future. Maybe that is what eats you up so bad. But, his future, and your opinion, are entirely independent.

And that is a damn good thing for all of us.