My Penny on the Hawks

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Doc and others,

Outside of Joe and Josh (whom I did highlight as THE reasons we won in Orlando) I don't see starting caliber players on this team.

So when I say there is a lack of talent, that's what I'm talking about.

No doubt that Marvin could blossom...it's really up to him, which I stated. He has the NBA body, but does he have the NBA instinct. It was clear that he did not have any aggression in this game, but I saw it against lesser comp in the summer leagues.

Being Dion Glover is not going to cut it for Williams.

I didn't get to see Speedy play, of course, so can't really judge him here.

Childress could be a starting caliber player if there were a Nash-like PG playing with him. Otherwise, he's a Shane Battier type player that needs others to find him to score.

Who else is there that makes up this team full of talent? I may have missed it, but Johnson and Smith are it as of today. Marvin

maybe

later, Childress if someone comes along that plays like Kidd/Nash. That's not a team loaded with talent.

That's a team that will bump along, winning when Johnson and/or Smith plays a good game. Fortunately, Joe plays that game a lot, but teams will continue to send doubles and triples at him, especially in the fourth, and if he's all that can be counted on, then the team won't be a consistent winner.

---

Man, this is almost as good as the return of Superman....or not Jay. Good to see you. I have to agree....I think if Marvin had the aggression necessary, we're debating the one-two punch of Marv/JJ instead of JJ only.

I was one of the few who ripped BK for at least picking Shelden at #5. He's another piece that doesn't quite get you what you need, but I hold out hope that he improves and I'm not bashing him....but astute picking has not been BK's strengths. Where we were picking...we should have done more, but I'll leave that alone.

---

BK did pick the best big man available, or at least the best big man with the best credentials. LOL . . imagine this team without Shelden, but with Brandon Roy or Randy Foye. Offensively, we'd probably be better with Roy or Foye. Defensively, we'd get killed more than ever on the inside.

One of the things that people overlook about Shelden, is that he does subtle things that don't show up on the stat sheet. He sets good screens in the halfcourt set. He's also a decent passer in the halfcourt offense. And he plays good man to man defense and has a knack of stepping in and taking a charge every once in a while. Shelden is a very smart basketball player. He does have to learn how to play a little bigger in this league, if he wants that 10 year career. But right now, Shelden provides exactly what is asked of him . . play decent defense off the bench, and get those defensive rebounds. And he even has a decent 15 foot jumper.

He's a lot like my boy up in Minnesota, Trenton Hassell. Offensively, he doesn't stand out as a player that does much, seeing that he lacks that aggressive nature to assert himself. It's funny though. In college, he was much more known as an offensive player, than a defensive one. Even when he came to the Bulls as a rookie, he was actually their 3 point specialist, not their defensive stopper.

It wasn't until Ron Artest kept telling him that he could stay in this league a long time, if he made a commitment to be a good defender, that his focus turned on being just that. The Bulls cut he and Fred Hoiberg after Year 2. They both end up in Minnesota, and were key cogs in their Western Conference Finals run 3 years ago. Ever since then, Trenton has been known as a defensive specialist.

But Lord knows that everytime Trenton comes home for the summer, that I and everybody else is telling him to be more assertive on offense. Sometimes he does it. But most of the time, he just plays his role as the T-Wolves premier perimeter defender, and as a guy who can knock down open shots.

In reality, Trenton should be a guy averaging about 11 - 13 ppg for the Wolves, and getting some of Ricky Davis' shots. But he's a good teammate and just does what he's told, instead of forcing things on offense, unlike Ricky, who is the exact opposite.

Shelden just plays his role with the Hawks. I know everybody wants him to be great, seeing that we took him at #5, but he's doing exactly what he should be doing right now. LOL . . the alternative, would be to bring Batista off the bench and play him 20 minutes a game. I'll take Shelden thank you.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

I think the key point made is the coach not able to get the talent out of the guys we have and his inability to develop the young guys any better.

He preaches defensc, but it only shows up part of the time.

Welcome back JW.

---

So how do you explain the development of Josh Smith and Josh Childress, if the coach can't develop young talent?

You guys can't have it both ways when it comes to Woody. He's by no means a great coach, but he's not garbage either. But you can't praise the Joshs for their improved play during the season, and think that the coach has absolutely nothing, or very little, to do with that development. He's as responsible as anybody, for the development of the 2 Joshs, players that everybody love right now. That "love" definitely wasn't present when the season started. Let most people on this board tell it . . the jury was still out on both of those guys.

If we have to wait another 1/2 to 1 year for Marvin to become a consistent ballplayer, so be it. But I even see Marvin not wanting to force the issue these days. When Marvin first came back, the Hawks were asking someone on this team to step up and be a consistent #2 or #3 scorer. Marvin tried to fill that role, but he wasn't ready to be an efficient scorer because he hasn't found his niche as an offensive player yet.

Is it possible now that we have everybody back, that Woody is telling Marvin to "settle down and take that open 15 - 20 footer every chance you get", instead of trying to get to the hole and be that slasher you were in summer league?

There are no summer league refs in the NBA, so he's not going to get the calls when he goes to the hole. So maybe coach told Marvin to play within himself, and work on being a good mid-range shooter first. Once that part of his game is established, he'll then be able to get to the hole, when people start overplaying him to take that jumper.

Marvin's development is nowhere near complete. It's just that 80% of Hawks fans are impatient as hell because they're tired of the losing, and want something to latch on to.

But with a young team, you have no choice but to wait.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

well i'm going to have to disagree with many of your points. One point I DO agree with is that we have youth and we need more vets to be more consistent NOW. However we have plenty of talent but again it's young so it's still developing. Josh Smith if you notice is becoming a beast out there on both ends of the court. You are correct on Chill and you are definitely correct on needed a dishing point (but we tried in free agency and Speedy was the best we could get) and needing a center.

Marvin is too passive yes but again we all knew he was a project. It's consistency we need from him. Sometimes he's fired up, sometimes he's not.

---

Doc is the voice of reason on this board. Great post.

[TroyMcClure]

Quote:

---

When we're not injured, we're a little better than .500.

---

That is an absolute joke. Are you basing that on the first 6 games?

[KB21]

Exactly.

Shelden Williams wasn't the sexy pick, but he brought the skills the Hawks needed the most at that pick. There's no doubt that Brandon Roy is a better player and is the best rookie in the league this year, but does anyone really think he would be averaging 33 minutes per game and 14 points per game on the Hawks with both Joe Johnson and Josh Childress in front of him?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

When we're not injured, we're a little better than .500.

---

That is an absolute joke. Are you basing that on the first 6 games?

---

* 4 - 1 in the first 5 games . . could've easily been 6 - 1 if we pulled out those two games vs Milwaukee and Seattle.

* 6 - 7 at the end of November. Maybe if Chill was healthy, that record is 8 - 5

* We lose 11 out of 12 from early-December to early January mainly because that's the time when we had people dropping out of this lineup like flies

* Last 11 games . . . we're 6 - 5 and starting to get back to full strength.

So let's review.

From the beinning of the season to the incredible comeback win @ Denver on December 6th, the Hawks were an 8 - 9 team

From Dec. 8 till Jan 5 . . the Hawks were 1 - 12

From Jan 6 till now . . the Hawks were 6 - 5.

It is so inconcievable that the Hawks couldn't be a .500 team, if we were somewhat healthy?

[Hoosier]

Have to agree with you on this one Doc, Hawks have a great young talent core. They all may be the same size, but will develop into different types of players. JJ, JS, and MW will be potential all-stars, supported by solid back-ups in SW and JC. Now all we need is the soup & potatoes, as in a starting center and starting PG.

By the way Jaywalker, have you heard any rumors about a certain EC team moving to LV after this season?

[TexasPete]

Brandon Roy would be behind Childress? Your nuts. First, right now Brandon Roy would be our PG because we have been playing without one. Second, your right in saying that Shelden wasn't the sexy pick. He just sucks. He provides little defense and no shot blocking which were two things your hero drafted him for. Or, should I say that BK didn't draft him so much as promised him a month ahead of the draft.

The truth is Shelden sucks. He was a terrible pick. He can't play defense and he damn sure can't put the ball in the basket. He is a 23 year old rookie with no upside. But BK had to have the defense and rebounding right? NOTE: If the best big available in the draft SUCKS...try drafting a GUARD!

BK has had numerous picks and made numerous moves. He has had real chances to make us a very good team. But he just sucks...the guy is a terrible GM. Look at some of the names that SHOULD be Hawks...Deng (no brainer), Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Brandon Roy, Monta Ellis, Paul Milsap.

And his free agents? Nice work getting a perpetually hurt career back-up as our PG. BK feels PG's are overrated...apparently, PGs are fairly important. And Lo Wright? The man is horrible.

I'm giving up my tickets next year and the seats have been in my family for 22 years. I have no more faith in anything this organization does. The Spirit are a joke, an incompetant group of men tied up in court in large part due to their own stupidity. The GM is an arrogant recluse with no people skills that has zero idea how to build an actual team. And the coach is the worst in the league, completely over his head...and the incompetant owners don't know he is even a problem. This whole thing is a big mess and with the current people running this team there is no hope. Does anyone other than KB21 trust BK with another draft pick?

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

but here is the point: The Hawks are too shallow talent wise and too tools heavy roster wise to be relevant. They need a playmaker to help develop the younger talent.

---

Some of us have been harping on this to no avail around here. It's like half Hawksquawk watches another team, one they think will contend for a title with just the addition of an MLE player. It's amazing how ludicrious this notion is. The fact is there is not one thing about this team that is set. It doesn't have enough talent, it doesn't have enough positions, while I like JJ I think on a very good team he's a 2nd option - so no first option, JS as much as I love him, is at best a 3rd option, maybe 4th on a good team. MW? Ugh. He has alot of DerMarr Johnson in him. Not that he stands at the 3 pt line. He doesn't have that range on his shot or he would. No, simply too passive. ZaZa? BU. SW? Disaster of a pick! Absolute disaster. Who coldn't have seen a 6'7" short reach Pf at 5 being a terrible mistake? Childress? Poor starter on a good team but a great role player.

Simply put, we have NO MORE THAN, 2 starters in JJ and JS, 3 keepers in JS, JJ, JC, and 2-3 other borderline rotation players on a good team in MW, SW, and ZaZa. Miserable track record by BK.

Quote:

---

Big man and point guard please....of course that's been on Santa's list for quite a while now.

---

How? Nobody who doesn't support tanking can indicate how we do this with our chaos. Santa ain't climbin' down this chimney and daddy Levenson ain't paying for us to go see him. We gotta make our own christmas around here or it's coal for this franchise.

Sorry, just pissed. This franchise is the worst I've ever seen it and people want to think rosy when it costs us our only potential for significant franchise saving improvement.

W

[Dejay]

Nice to see you back, Jay. What you said was just what the doctor ordered for some on this board; a good, cold slap of reality. While its easy to harp on the youth and lack of chemistry, TALENT is what ultimately wins in this league and this bunch just doesn't have enough, PERIOD. Think about it, folks. JJ, Smith, and maybe Childress are the only guys on the entire roster who would probably start on over half of the teams in the league, AT BEST. The rest of them aren't really worth mentioning, at least until they gain some consistency (see Williams, Marvin), some height (see Williams, Sheldon) or a new set of healthy body parts (see Claxton, Craig). The rest are career backups (see Wright, Lue), should be backups (see Pachulia) or should be in the NBDL, CBA, ABCDEFG and not on this squad. What does that say about the rebuilding project that BK has put together? This team would be hard pressed to get by the squad with Terry, Glover, Shareef, et al. And while Woodson isn't blameless, it wouldn't be fair to put the onus on him when he isn't buying the groceries (pardon the Parcells pun). You have to blame the guy (BK) for buying the stale bread, the spoiled milk, the freezer burned meat, while storing them in a house with no electricity (see Spirit Group, Atlanta), yet expecting us to enjoy the meal as if its filet mignon from a 5-star restaurant.

If BK would've done his homework, Chris Paul or Deron Williams would be in Hawk gear and the PG situation settled for the next decade. Either guy, along with JJ, would've added 10-15 more wins to last year's total, to the point where an 8th seed would've been a possibility. The momemtum from that could've been the launching point where they would be in the same position the Thrashers are in right now; at or near the top of the division looking down with big crowds turning out at Philips to see them instead of the other way around. But instead, we're here once again, waiting, hoping, praying, that the ping-pong balls bounce our way while the entire city of Phoenix licks their chops at getting the 4th pick. I wonder which way the ball will bounce this time around, hmmm?

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

---

Exactly.

Shelden Williams wasn't the sexy pick, but he brought the skills the Hawks needed the most at that pick. There's no doubt that Brandon Roy is a better player and is the best rookie in the league this year, but does anyone really think he would be averaging 33 minutes per game and 14 points per game on the Hawks with both Joe Johnson and Josh Childress in front of him?

---

it's fun watching you try and cover Billy's @ss for selecting the new Robert Traylor.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

---

Doc and others,

Outside of Joe and Josh (whom I did highlight as THE reasons we won in Orlando) I don't see starting caliber players on this team.

So when I say there is a lack of talent, that's what I'm talking about.

No doubt that Marvin could blossom...it's really up to him, which I stated. He has the NBA body, but does he have the NBA instinct. It was clear that he did not have any aggression in this game, but I saw it against lesser comp in the summer leagues.

Being Dion Glover is not going to cut it for Williams.

I didn't get to see Speedy play, of course, so can't really judge him here.

Childress could be a starting caliber player if there were a Nash-like PG playing with him. Otherwise, he's a Shane Battier type player that needs others to find him to score.

Who else is there that makes up this team full of talent? I may have missed it, but Johnson and Smith are it as of today. Marvin

maybe

later, Childress if someone comes along that plays like Kidd/Nash. That's not a team loaded with talent.

That's a team that will bump along, winning when Johnson and/or Smith plays a good game. Fortunately, Joe plays that game a lot, but teams will continue to send doubles and triples at him, especially in the fourth, and if he's all that can be counted on, then the team won't be a consistent winner.

---

If Josh Smith turns into a legit all-star alongside Johnson, Marvin lives up to half of his superstar potential, and we get a solid big man and this team is championship caliber.

No team has all-stars at every position. The best teams in the league only have 2-3 all-star caliber players with a bunch of role players.

We could have that here.

We are a center away.

Take the Dallas Mavericks for example.

Joe Johnson is our Jason Terry except he has more talent. Josh Childress is our Devin Harris except he has more talent. Marvin Williams could be our Josh Howard except he actually has more talent. Josh Smith could be our Dirk Nowitzki except he has more talent. We just need someone to be our Eric Dampier. Because right now the guys we have are worse than him.

Now before you call me crazy. Let's examine it.

Joe Johnson can do everything Jason Terry can but better. No argument can be made.

Devin Harris/Devon George or whoever they have in the backcourt alongside Terry is less than Childress talentwise as well.

Josh Smith can dominate the game on both sides of the floor. He lives up to his potential and he's greater than Dirk.

As great as Josh Howard has been playing Marvin is actually more physically gifted so he could at the least be as good as Howard.

All we need is someone to match Eric Dampier. Could it be Solomon Jones? Maybe. We need to give him a freaking chance.

Now I know that the players I matched up don't exactly do the same thing. The point Im trying to get across is that the God-given talent is there. It's the skills that need refining.

[Packfill]

Quote:

---

...if it's worth that much.

Let's do it, numbered and free form style:

1. There is Joe Johnson, and then there is nothing. When Joe came out, we stood around looking at each other. That's not good and won't stand up consistently.

2. There are simply not any other players that can create their own shot. Josh Smith shot well tonight, but he seemed to settle outside way too much and the Hawks were fortunate that his shots from the outside went down tonight.

It does seem a shame that this little attribute has not been addressed enough with these lotto picks....which leads me to:

3. Shelden and Marvin

Marvin...I am not feeling you. You are a very passive fellow when you look like you should be aggressive. You have a long frame which should give you an advantage over defenders, but you seem clueless and unwilling to exploit that. Get over your wallflower tendencies and you may begin to make good on your potential.

Shelden....What would you say you do for the Hawks? You seemed to get beat over the top for rebounds even when you had position. You seemed to not be able to contribute on the offensive end at all. You're short, slow, and not all that fundamentally sound on defense. You're not Antonio or Dale Davis. You have some mighty big work ahead of you big fella.

3. Zaza Pachulia looks like he needs help. Zaza was unable to create anything above an off balance shot for himself all night, even though the ball went to him in the post a good bit. He doesn't create for others with a good move or an instinct to pass. He's a decent backup, but his total lack of defensive presence was obvious, especially when Darko spun him. That's not good.

4. Salim Stoudamire is not the kind of player you need coming off the bench with a low tenured coach like Woodson. He needs discipline to shut down his unnecessary off balance jump shots. He thinks he's instant offense, but what he really is is a change of possession.

5. Josh Childress is fun to watch. Steady as a rock on both ends. But on offense he needs another gear to get to the rack. This is one player who desperately needs a playmaker at PG. Sadly, he's asked to bring the ball up some when Lue is not in the game.

6. The point guard position is atrocious. You can't have consistent play on the offense end without a playmaker controlling tempo. Joe Johnson is incredible, but not a drive and dish playmaker. He's a scorer. I couldn't help but think about the Marvin pick (which I am sure never happens here) and plug in one of the points from that draft. Childress would be that much better...as would Smith and everyone else.

I am missing some, but here is the point: The Hawks are too shallow talent wise and too tools heavy roster wise to be relevant. They need a playmaker to help develop the younger talent.

Also, this team is too young up and down to win consistently. Add in a coach cutting his teeth in the lead role and you have seen the results. This team needs some vets who are actually still able to contribute 30-35 a night to mix in with these kids. Babcock tried to build with 5 young guys as the nucleus and first time head coaches and it never developed. Guys stagnated without teammates who have been there to shoulder the load. Woodson can't hardly keep the team focused with so many kids to babysit. He needs quality vets (again, guys who should play 30-35 mpg, not over the hill or role players on winners) to help that load as well.

I was happy to see the team win. Very happy. Only guy in the arena cheering happy. It looked bleak for a while , but Smoove and of course the Amazing Joe Johnson came through. Great to watch the Magic "fans" roll out when the game was still in doubt.

But I don't believe you can count on that all year based on what I've written above....so there's still lots of work to do.

Big man and point guard please....of course that's been on Santa's list for quite a while now.

Good night, Hawks fans...We won tonight...Enjoy it while we have it.

---

Than you Jaywalker. Excellent summary of the Hawks position.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

Exactly.

Shelden Williams wasn't the sexy pick, but he brought the skills the Hawks needed the most at that pick. There's no doubt that Brandon Roy is a better player and is the best rookie in the league this year, but does anyone really think he would be averaging 33 minutes per game and 14 points per game on the Hawks with both Joe Johnson and Josh Childress in front of him?

---

Considering how you thought Brandon Roy was the "perect backcourt mate" for JJ and actually stated you hated SW before BK picked SW, then strongly supported the BK decision to select SW and insulted Roy...now you're second guessing yourself and contradicting your BPA ridiculous argument you used to make a case for MW (not the BPA obviously)?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Fact is that Roy would be playing next to Joe Johnson at Pg and doing very well there. As the season progresses he's getting better and better (SW's worse and worse). While with Sergio and Jack and the need at Sg Roy won't get the Pg time there, he still handles the ball alot and has 3 APG. Here he'd average >5 APG which is more than Speedy averages. Not a traditional lineup but Roy is a definate 20 PPG scorer in this league for many MANY years and does everything well and SW is such a waste. Really, he's an absolute waste. Just a horrible pick.

Still defending BK. Ugh.

W

[Hoosier]

I'm definitely in that category, as much as I dislike Woody as a coach, I like BK as a GM. He pulled Gasol out of one of the most miserable drafts in years, when the "sexy" pick would have been Curry. Josh Smith at #17 could be one of the biggest steals of the decade. Like KB21 said, JC with the right supporting cast is every bit the stat stuffer (with more intangibles) of a Deng/Iggy, but since we are second guessing what about Biedris? D.Williams would have been nice instead of M.Williams, but in five years they will both be competing with each for All-Star votes. S.Williams is everything BK wanted him to be, the fans here just don't know it yet, you are talking about a below average draft that probably won't produce any All-Stars (Roy will be solid). You seriously can't blame any GM for Milsap (size) or Ellis (knees).

Do you blame your financial analyst for not picking the next Taser stock, when all your stocks are doing quite well?

On the other hand, have you ever seen BK just burn a 1st round pick, like most other GM's have? With a healthy Claxton along with a healthy JS, JJ, & JC, this team is in the playoffs, despite Woody as our coach.

One big problem I have with BK is that he is being very stubborn about admitting he blew his coaching decision. Then again, maybe Woodson was always meant to be just a three or four year coach?

[hawkman]

Are you watching the same team that I've been watching for the past few seasons?!?!?!?

[AtLaS]

thats a LOT of what ifs.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

If Josh Smith turns into a legit all-star alongside Johnson, Marvin lives up to half of his superstar potential, and we get a solid big man and this team is championship caliber.

---

I'm not sure I even agree with you here as I think we need better than a mere "solid center" next to JS and MW at forward to resemble "championship caliber", but regardless, how many IFs makes for "blow up and try again"? I think we are closer to that than "championship caliber", particularly with this ownership.

Quote:

---

No team has all-stars at every position. The best teams in the league only have 2-3 all-star caliber players with a bunch of role players.

---

We are not trying to mimic "no team". We are trying to contend for a title. We don't have the uber, super-duper star so we need more lesser star power. Not only that, we need that star power across a variety of positions, particularly important, challenging positions to fill like Pg and C, or else we're a redundant skilled team defeating itself with stars taking similar other stars opportunities.

Quote:

---

We are a center away.

---

Maybe Oden away, but no mere center away. By the way, how would you suggest getting said center anyhow?

Take the Dallas Mavericks for example.

Quote:

---

Joe Johnson is our Jason Terry except he has more talent. Josh Childress is our Devin Harris except he has more talent. Marvin Williams could be our Josh Howard except he actually has more talent. Josh Smith could be our Dirk Nowitzki except he has more talent. We just need someone to be our Eric Dampier. Because right now the guys we have are worse than him.

---

Good grief that is a horrible homer example. Do you really believe much of any of that? All we need is Eric Dampier? Good grief. Examining it only makes it worse.

Quote:

---

the God-given talent is there. It's the skills that need refining.

---

It's not like we're mining for oil here. No matter how deep you drill into MW's psyche you're not going to strike it rich. As with this team it has more flaws than a 40-something LA actress has had worked on. We're not talking botox injections here. We're talking extensive tummy tucks, face lifts, and A's to DD's. This ownership ain't no sugar-daddy. They would rather go back to their wife and kids than be in this mess and they spend like it on team plastic surgery opting for facial peels and lip waxes.

That ain't going to cut it and neither is believing in some fairy tale ending for this rebuild. We need something to turn this bedtime story on its head. A top 3 pick for instance. Otherwise, the rebuild gets it.

W