CLEARING THE FOG

[TheDude]

I wanna list out a multitude of issues that seem to cause this board to erupt in negativity every single day. Misconceptions and disagreements and many times just plain ol' insanity. And let's see if it can clear some heads on where we are at and what we need to do to get where we want.

1))) BK- He has made some bad moves and he has made some good moves. To me to make a judgement on his job, you can't just look at the players that he has gotten and see how they have done. You HAVE GOT to look at the reasoning and circumstances surrounding the move. If you picked up a dollar off the ground and it exploded, you cant be at fault cuz the dollar exploded. You HAVE to look at the circumstances.

- The Marvin Pick. Everyone on this planet says we should have gotten Paul. In hindsight, yes we should have. But if you can remember that at the time that Marvin was picked, we did not have a superstar or star to carry this team. We did not. The Joshes were inconsistent rookies, Harrington showed he was not that star, and Joe wasnt here. So, although we had young players at those positions, BK was trying to bring in that superstar (aka garnett) type player in. A good team has to have a star. And that's not to mention that most people had Marvin above Paul and many even had him at #1. We also had a crapload of people on this very board (including myself) who said that Paul was too small and would get backed down by point guards like Jack. Side note: by the way, BK tried to get Jack later in that draft by trading but noone would trade with him. No fault to him for this. And don't forget Bk thought JJ would be his point guard (i fault him for this logic)

- The Shelden Pick. I agree that he was taken too high. It seems to me the logic was to try to get the best big man available, not just get the most NBA ready one. I'm ok with the pick, but I really beleive BK made a mistake in showing his hand. We could have traded down I beleive. Risky yes, but worth it. But I like the person we drafted. People complained about the Marvin pick that we didnt draft for need and in this draft, he drafted for need. Side note: BK did try to get Marcus Williams later that same round but again was rebuffed to make a trade so he could get him. No fault to him for this.

- The Childress pick. Chill, Deng, and Iggy were all about even in many people's minds in the draft. Chill's got a video game with his face on it. He didnt suck. BK picked the one he thought best. This is a debatable pick just because all the players were pretty close to each other. However I am happy with Chill, just needs to shoot that jumper when he's open. But I can understand the debate on this pick

- The JSmith pick. Awesome pick. You have to give credit to BK for the pick. If you criticize him for other picks, you have to give him credit for picks he did right. Otherwise, you're just a basher with no logic.

- The Speedy signing. Everyone was on BK's jock to get a point in the offseason. The best two point guards went like this: 1)Same Cassel, 2) Speedy Claxton. He offered the moon to Cassel and was rejected. So he went and got number 2. Not sure what some of you would have done to get Cassell here that BK didnt do but it would have had to been supernatural. Speedy was injury prone but who else were we to get? I liked Marcus Banks but Speedy showed could play better now.

- The Ren signing. ZaZa played well for us last year. People on this board were screaming we got a steal.That's because ZaZa was a dirty work guy, not a trytopostupandtakeafoul guy he has been this year. Many felt that as long as we got somebody solid, better than John Edwards, then we would be solid here. Ren was a starter, so he HAD to be better. But he has underperformed for much of the season and ZaZa stopped being dirty work guy so it hasnt worked out. It's better than it was last year, but still lacking. I blame BK for not looking more in the trade route to get a big man, but don't blame him for not throwing zillions of dollars at Ben Wallace or heartproblem Eddie Curry. He did go after Chandler (who would be perfect for us at center due to rebounding and defense) but couldnt get him. He may have screwed something up on that. Never will know.

- Joe Johnson trade. I don't care what anybody says, I'd do that trade everytime. Diaw is a dimeadozen player in this league. The two picks won't be as high as they'd like and we got a true leading man for it. I would guarantee if you asked phoenix to reverse the trade, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

- side notes: my opinion solomon jones is a decent pick but i screamed for alexander johnson and i scream louder now that i know i was right. salim- ehhh. lue- great sign. batista- who the hell knows. medvedenko- decent sign. dleaguers-i like richardson, the rest ehhh. john edwards- horrible.

2)) Woody- When he had his beard early this year, we had better luck. I'm all for a replacement at coach but I don't think it's smart to do it in the middle of this season. Give him the season, change it in the offseason. Who do you change it to? I don't know. Woody is pretty decent defense-wise but offensively we're horrid.

3)) The Marvin debate. When Marvin was drafted, it was widely known that he was a 3 year developing guy. We all talked about it here but we seem to have forgotten that and he gets bashed. When Marvin is aggressive, he's better. He scores decent and puts up decent enough numbers. But he's not noticed because he doesnt take over games. He gets his stuff quietly. To me, he's like Chill but he makes more mistakes and is going to get better than Chill. Marvin has gotten better and he is showing he continues to develop. He's still a kid though and you can tell that, not just because of his age, but sometimes the way he acts on the court. When Marvin Williams becomes more aggressive and tries to take over games, he will be much much better and people will take notice. He will make more mistakes at first when he's aggressive but those will subside and we will have a really nice sg, sf, pf starting lineup. This is my opinion, many seem to disagree with me here. But if you disagree, at least give the man a year before he labeled a fullfledged bust.

4)) Shelden- Many have noticed that it seems that Shelden doesnt seem to put up the same type numbers as he did in the beginning. I think it's because we needed him more due to injuries in the beginning. But to me, that's no excuse for Woody. Shelden needs some plays ran for him more consistently. Not only does that help him develop talent-wise, but it also gets him in the game mentally. He was drafted too high, but I am not disatisfied with his performance. He has been solid and I think he will get quite a bit better regardless of being a college player.

5)) JSmooth- People bash because he shoots jumpers. It's like the announcer said last night, when he is able to hit those with more consistency, he will be a nightmare (he didnt say nightmare but you get the drift). He needs to try to hit those shots to become better at it because it will make him that much more of a threat. His post-up game is taking leaps and bounds but needs to continue to develop. He's the mf man.

6)) JChill- Bashee of the day today. Needs to be more aggressive when he's open for the shot. He drives quite a bit now, so I'm happy with that. I like Chill. and I like the fro.

7)) Speedy- Other than his shooting, I like his play WHEN HE'S HEALTHY. But he needs to go to the gym and do nothing but shoot jump shots. I mean his shooting is horrible. Just plain ugly. I think if he was healthy for a long period he could get into a rythm and actually hit some shots. Defense is great and is good at setting players. But man does he suck offensively. We need 8-10 points from him a night. And another 8-10 from Lue.

8)) ZaZa- Lately is getting back to the lastyears version of ZaZa, which is good. Needs to continue to crash boards and play like a scrapper as opposed to trying to Hakeem Olojuwon everybody.

9)) Esteban- What the hell is going on? Does he suck that badly? Trade him for youth with potential, or play him.

10)) Solomon Jones- The guy seems to have a solid stroke on his shot. He needs more playing time but maybe let him get in at the 4 too. He needs more playing time. Not a lot, but at least a few minutes a game.

Overall: The team is a good team and potential playoff team. I think starting next year, we will be a perenial playoff team. BUT we need center help and point guard help to go beyond that but I think these need to come from vets, not draftpicks. We need a point that can play defense AND score. Not one that scores and one that plays defense. We need a Tyson Chandler type at center but maybe someone with a bit more offensive skill. These are two hard positions to get and unless we sign Billups or Bibby to a big contract, we're going to have to trade something to get these positions filled. I'd like to get Oden sure, but don't want the team to tank and more importantly THEY WON'T TANK SO I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY HOPES THAT THEY WILL.

Let the River of Bash flow.

[Packfill]

1. BK - He may have the worst record of any GM in the history of professional basketball. That says something regardless of circumstances. His best pick was a non-lottery selection. He has likely missed on three lottery picks (meaning, better players were available when the Hawks selected). He is terrible. He wrongly assumed JJ could play the point. His free agent signings have been mediocre at best. The point guard (to you honestly expect Speedy to stay healthy based on his career?) and center positions on this team remain a mess.

- The Marvin pick was a bad pick. Turns out that Paul and Deron are the superstars from this draft. Hopefully Marvin proves me wrong on this. The thing I do not understand is everyone says he is a project yet the reason he was such a good prospect is that he had advanced skills. How does this make sense? Smoove is a project because he had no obvious NBA skills other then athleticism. Marvin was supposed to bring a polished game.

- Sheldon was picked much too early. If BK and the rest of the Hawks management envisioned Smoove as a power forward last year then spending a lottery pick on a back-up does not make sense. If they plan on playing him at center - why don't they? He can't be worse then Zaza and Lo (Lo in particular).

- Chill is a good player, but not as good as Deng or Iggy and he will always be compared to the two during his career. So not a bad pick, but another lottery pick on a back-up player. Not ideal.

- Smoove was a great pick. I do not give BK any real props for this pick though because it was a TOTALLY OBVIOUS PICK. Seriously, why would any Atlanta GM not select the local prodigy? I could have made that pick. Babcock would have made that pick. That said, best move BK has made as GM of the Hawks.

- I actually liked the Speedy signing with the caveat that they bring in someone to groom behind him. Unfortunately, Speedy's injury history is extensive and the Hawks might not be able to rely on him in the long run. Equally unfortunate is that the Hawks seemed to get him after he had a career year. I would love him as a back-up though.

- The Wright signing was a waste. I believe most NBA people could have confirmed that he was toast. I would rather the minutes go to Sheldon or Jones.

- Zaza is a fine back-up, just not starting material. Many people on this board realized it last year. BK should have as well.

- JJ trade was a good trade. It was not a steal. Phoenix has gotten better since JJ has left so I doubt they have any regrets. Could BK have gotten JJ for less? Maybe. Second best move of the BK tenure.

2. Woodson is a terrible coach. He should be replaced this off-season. There is no rhyme nor reason to his substitution patterns or his game planning. There is no offensive system.

3. As for the Marvin debate, I have always been of the opinion that the Hawks should have drafted one of the point guards. I wanted Paul. This was where I lost faith in BK. Could be a franchise killer. Smoove and Childress would be better players with Paul or Deron because of the easy scoring opportunities each would get as a result of their superior passing abilities.

3. I expected more from Sheldon. Yes he is a rookie but he is as experienced as any rookie. 4 year starter for big time program. He had more pressure on him every night at Duke then he does now. He better at least be a Reggie Evans or Udonis Haslem (guys you can get in the second round or as free agents).

No need to respond to the rest.

As far as the playoffs, after stripping this team bear and enduring multiple terrible seasons BK said he would build this team the right way - so that it could be a championship caliber team. Unfortunately, he has not delivered. He can redeem himself this off-season but I doubt it. We need to trade some of the young talent for an established interior defender (i.e., a starting caliber center, not a washed up Magloire.).

This team may compete for a playoff spot with the current roster, but it is unlikely to compete for a championship because it does not play good defense and the offense is to reliant on jump shots. In the playoffs the defensive intensity is much higher and the team will not get open looks.

A good point guard would help create easy shots for our athletes and maximize the talents of guys like Smoove and Childress.

[gsuteke]

I agree on Marvin, Ren, and Speedy. ultimately with Ren and Marvin it's BK's job to be smarter than the rest of us. he wasn't.

I have to take issue with you on your championship outlook. the NBA is cyclical. who knows what players will be on what teams 3 years from now? who knows what players will develop into All-Stars out of J Smith, CHillz, Shelden's, and Marvin's groups.

I will say one thing. the early exit polling isn't looking great.

[Nicholasp27]

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He has likely missed on three lottery picks (meaning, better players were available when the Hawks selected).

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

everyone who didn't take smoove 3rd-16th missed on their lottery pick a few years ago

everyone who didn't take redd after about pick 5 or so until 2nd round missed a few years before that

amare went 9th in his draft...

etc etc

[Guest Walter]

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1)So, although we had young players at those positions, BK was trying to bring in that superstar (aka garnett) type player in.

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The whole notion of including MW and Garnett in the same sentence is repulsive. Your argument is fine if Garnett or Durant for example were available, but MW wasand is so far from such individuals and displayed no love of the game or fire for becoming much that your argument has no business being used here. In fact, it's insulting to the BPA argument.

THAT'S the crux. Nobody has a problem with the BPA in theory I-F the BPA is a franchise player, but MW had no business being thought of as such and anyone AND I MEAN ANYONE who watched UNC knew that.

Nobody has a problem with a small force, quick strike "victory" in Iraq either I-F we were greeted as "liberators" by the whole of the country. But of course it's the Middle East and for the U.S. to think that they would ever be seen across the board as liberators in the Middle East much less in Iraq was either disengenuous or naive. If you supported either course you had to be very naive to not have seen either scenario or disengenuous in your characterization of them. MW was just as much a franchise player or even BPA as Iraq was a peacefully unified nation without a history of sectarian issues. Just naive rationalization is all you're putting forth. It's all to make you feel a little better about being so GD wrong. Nothing worth our time.

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- The Shelden Pick. I agree that he was taken too high. It seems to me the logic was to try to get the best big man available, not just get the most NBA ready one. I'm ok with the pick, but I really beleive BK made a mistake in showing his hand. We could have traded down I beleive. Risky yes, but worth it. But I like the person we drafted. People complained about the Marvin pick that we didnt draft for need and in this draft, he drafted for need.

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I complain about not drafting with everything in mind and not these simple catch phrases like BPA and "need". You weigh everything. There was nothing right or good about the SW pick or how it went down. Not "showing your hand" is GMing 099. Not picking a role player 5th is GMing 099. Not picking a 6'7" Pf 5th when you NEED a C and a Pg is GMing 099. Quit defending the pick. Makes you look pathetic.

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Side note: BK did try to get Marcus Williams later that same round but again was rebuffed to make a trade so he could get him. No fault to him for this.

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"NOT HIS FAULT" MY ASS!!! Who do you think it was that promised ourselves out of the trading business in the 1st place? Trades were flying everywhere around the 5th pick and we couldn't get in that business. The rights to Roy were worth more than SW's will be for the entirety of his whole career. THAT IS BK'S FAULT! He hamstrung this franchise on draft day for a promise to a role player nobody in the top 10 wanted!!! THAT IS HIS FAULT! We tried to trade with Pheonix of all teams. Now that's brilliant. Try and trade a for a pick from the team that wants you to fail so they get a higher pick. Sure they'll do it. Frankly, BK got chumped the entire draft. CHUMPED!

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- The Childress pick. Chill, Deng, and Iggy were all about even in many people's minds in the draft.

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No they weren't. They all played the same position, that's it. Childress had fallen, but regardless, Iggy and Deng both had significantly more trade value. You do have to consider these things.

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- The JSmith pick. Awesome pick. You have to give credit to BK for the pick. If you criticize him for other picks, you have to give him credit for picks he did right.

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You mean credit him with pick (singular) he did right. An unqualified success.

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- The Speedy signing. Everyone was on BK's jock to get a point in the offseason. The best two point guards went like this: 1)Same Cassel, 2) Speedy Claxton.

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So, BK's failure to get a Pg for many, MANY, M-A-N-Y years despite available franchise Pgs and this year (something a Sg-sized combo guard in Roy could easily do for us next to JJ) in the draft, largely due to his promise to a reach of a role player at 5, which all led to a desperation injured BU Pg signing is our fault?!? Now that is some kind of rationalization. You ever been an addict?

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- The Ren signing. ZaZa played well for us last year. People on this board were screaming we got a steal.That's because ZaZa was a dirty work guy, not a trytopostupandtakeafoul guy he has been this year. Many felt that as long as we got somebody solid, better than John Edwards, then we would be solid here. Ren was a starter, so he HAD to be better.

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Can't you just say it was a mistake, yet another in a long line of BK mistakes?

"Many felt" wrong for precisely the reason you continue to be wrong. Faith, not hope or confidence in, BK. Faith, that is for churches not competitive sports. You believe BK posesses some sort of KB-expressed "transcendent knowledge we cannot begin to comprehend" and that his master plan will someday unfold like a lotus flower revealing a championship team of 6'8" players. You have to get past this mindset or else you will

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Joe Johnson trade. I don't care what anybody says, I'd do that trade everytime. Diaw is a dimeadozen player in this league. The two picks won't be as high as they'd like and we got a true leading man for it.

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I'd do it again, also, but it's not a slam dunk. BK's inability to construct this team any further hinders all out support for this trade more than any aspect of the trade itself. Truth is while the young players get older and develop, otherwise this team has gone backwords since the JJ signing. We've gotten so little from Lo and Speedy (or our remaining cap space in general), a 5th overall pick, and the trading of Al that our rebuilding has gone backwords. Don't let a few more wins fool you.

W

[mrhonline]

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

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Exactly. Bad GM's draft busts, average GM's often don't make the optimal picks.

[exodus]

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

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Exactly. Bad GM's draft busts, average GM's often don't make the optimal picks.

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The key difference is that hardly anyone knew that Redd would be that good or that Amare would be such a beast.

On the other hand Deng and Iggy were rated higher than Childress by seemingly everyone but BK.

Paul and Deron were in a draft that was considered the best for pgs since Kidd came out. And we needed a pg.

[gsuteke]

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

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Exactly. Bad GM's draft busts, average GM's often don't make the optimal picks.

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The key difference is that hardly anyone knew that Redd would be that good or that Amare would be such a beast.

On the other hand Deng and Iggy were rated higher than Childress by seemingly everyone but BK.

Paul and Deron were in a draft that was considered the best for pgs since Kidd came out. And we needed a pg.

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the Deng pick was a no brainer.

If Billy had done his homework he'd have seen the next year's draft was arguably one of the worst for PGs in the history of the NBA!

[ATLBob]

I had hoped to post something positive on this thread, but after reading Walter's post, within which I cannot find any substantive fault, I'm just gonna throw my support behind it. Pretty close to spot on Walt.

[gsuteke]

Bob

What PG or Center prospect was available at #5 last year? if you think Shelden was a reach replace his name with

Sene

O'Bryant

Marcus Williams

Rajon Rondo

Roy isn't a PG and didn't want to work out for us. Also until I see Roy play a season at PG I'm going to go with the rational assumption that it would have worked out much like playing Joe at the point did last year.

anyone who wants to use the #5 slot as a basis for their rationale without assessing the players available at X position of need is completely irrational. no big suprise.

Subsequently if you assume there were trades available to the Hawks that would have netted them Marcus Williams then you are being just that.. an ass , U hear me? I love how people use their revisionist history rants on this board to play "GM god." Worse yet they revolve around more speculative theory than a classic X-Files episode. will you please just stop making crap up?

in short all I am reading is "backwords" thinking.

[Packfill]

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He has likely missed on three lottery picks (meaning, better players were available when the Hawks selected).

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

everyone who didn't take smoove 3rd-16th missed on their lottery pick a few years ago

everyone who didn't take redd after about pick 5 or so until 2nd round missed a few years before that

amare went 9th in his draft...

etc etc

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You missed the point entirely. In each instance BK did not take the best available lottery talent. None of the picks were slam dunk picks and in each instance there were several other players that should have been in consideration for those picks. BK choose the wrong one in each instance.

No one bats 1.000, but you have to get a hit sometime or you are going back to the minors.

[TheDude]

I just posted my opinion and you gonna sit there a bash me with name-calling?!!! screw you. i don't usually get in these shouting matches online like some cybertough guy but you're real fckng dumbass hardcase...

why don't you put up a poster of Bk on your wall so you can blame him for everything on the planet and plan his demise. every gdamn thing i posted you disect to find SOME type of reasoning for bashing him. that shows blind hate. you can disect all you want but when the purpose to disect is to find reason to blame Bk, then it throws you're entire argument out the window..

don't bother wasting yours and my time replying to my posts if you're gonna walk around pointing fingers like a little spoiled boy essentially saying "It's all BK's fault, and you're stupid for not beleiving me."

[TheDude]

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

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Exactly. Bad GM's draft busts, average GM's often don't make the optimal picks.

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The key difference is that hardly anyone knew that Redd would be that good or that Amare would be such a beast.

On the other hand Deng and Iggy were rated higher than Childress by seemingly everyone but BK.

Paul and Deron were in a draft that was considered the best for pgs since Kidd came out. And we needed a pg.

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and Marvin was listed as the 2nd best prospect to come out and in many cases the BEST prospect to come out and we needed talent on our team.

[exodus]

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if that is the definition of missing, then put pretty much EVERY gm in the league in that category

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Exactly. Bad GM's draft busts, average GM's often don't make the optimal picks.

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The key difference is that hardly anyone knew that Redd would be that good or that Amare would be such a beast.

On the other hand Deng and Iggy were rated higher than Childress by seemingly everyone but BK.

Paul and Deron were in a draft that was considered the best for pgs since Kidd came out. And we needed a pg.

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and Marvin was listed as the 2nd best prospect to come out and in many cases the BEST prospect to come out and we needed talent on our team.

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The supposed talent gap between Marvin and Paul/Deron wasn't that even to the people who rated Marvin higher.

However the talent gap between Roy and Shelden was seen as very wide.

You can't have it both ways. If you are drafting for need then the picks would have been Paul/Deron and Shelden. If you are drafting the player considered to be the best available then you draft Marvin and Roy.

The fact is that BK changed his philosophy on consecutive drafts and wound up making the wrong pick both times.

[Nicholasp27]

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On the other hand Deng and Iggy were rated higher than Childress by seemingly everyone but BK.

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yet chill is just as good as those 2...seems he knew better than most then...

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Paul and Deron were in a draft that was considered the best for pgs since Kidd came out. And we needed a pg.

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yet every gm said they'd take marvin (even ones who needed a pg)...and scouts and the press said we should take marvin even tho we needed a pg

[exodus]

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yet chill is just as good as those 2...seems he knew better than most then...

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I didn't know you were a comedy writer. You won't find one non-Hawks fan who thinks Chill is better than iggy or Deng. Both average over 4 ppg more. Deng does it on a playoff team. And iggy averages over twice as many assists.

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yet every gm said they'd take marvin (even ones who needed a pg)...

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You just made that up. What GM's actually said, when polled, was that Marvin would be the best player overall in 5 years.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Ex . . I think one of the things that people overlook all the time about the Marvin pick is this.

At the time we drafted Marvin, these are the players we had under contract:

- Smoove

- Chill

- Ivey

- Diaw

- Harrington

THAT'S IT !! 5 players, with Harrington being the obvious best player on the team. And he was also the guy who was most likely to bolt once the season was over.

I think BK's philosophy was to find that "superstar" talent type player, then build around him.

Before the draft, we'd missed out on Michael Redd, Ray Allen and Larry Hughes. JJ wasn't even in the picuture at draft time.

To take Chris Paul, I believe that BK had to be convinced that he'd be a superstar PG in this league. An Isaiah Thomas like PG. I think he just didn't believe that. And when you look back on it, that's why he passed on Jameer Nelson, another solid PG, but took Smoove. He was looking for that "star".

And I also think that BK was looking at the prospect early on to have a lineup where Marvin, Smoove, and Chill would all be starters after Harrington bolted. Then he could add vets to the team around those 3 core guys.

When JJ became available, that kind of changed the landscape around here, and accellerated how good we could be, if we obtained the right pieces.

But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

[exodus]

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But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix.

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Getting JJ had nothing to do with who we drafted. BK got the best available free agent he could get.

Watching League Pass last game i heard the NJ announcers, one of which was Mark Jackson. He said that if you are going to pass on filling a need in order to take a guy who you think will be a star then you'd "better be right". And BK was wrong.

[mrhonline]

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He said that if you are going to pass on filling a need in order to take a guy who you think will be a star then you'd "better be right". And BK was wrong.

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How so? Because a 20 year old player isn't a star on one of the youngest teams in the history of the NBA?

[exodus]

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He said that if you are going to pass on filling a need in order to take a guy who you think will be a star then you'd "better be right". And BK was wrong.

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How so? Because a 20 year old player isn't a star on one of the youngest teams in the history of the NBA?

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No. It is because we passed up two stars, at a position of need, to take him.

If you think Marvin has star potential then you really haven't been paying attention, or you are watching the games with your homer goggles on.

Could he be a good player? Sure. But i am just hoping that he can become as good a player as Paul and Deron are now, and that might be a reach.