CLEARING THE FOG

[Guest Walter]

SW, ZaZa/Lo being a good C combo...the list goes on. It's shameful how wrong you have become.

Quote:

---

What PG or Center prospect was available at #5 last year? if you think Shelden was a reach replace his name with

Sene

O'Bryant

Marcus Williams

Rajon Rondo

Roy isn't a PG and didn't want to work out for us.

---

Roy is a combo guard in a Sg's body and can d@mn sure play the point next to JJ! Moreover, didn't he turn down trying out for us AFTER the promise to SW. Who in hell would work out for us after that rumor? We couldn't even draft and trade him much less just draft him. Nobody is stupid enough to job interview with a company already promising the job to someone else! Regardless, you at least get your 5th pick worth. Maintain your flexibility. Nobody in the top 10 would have drafted SW. You could have at least turned a 5th pick into Mo Williams or Monta Ellis. That was a least case scenario.

Hell yeah I'd rather have Sene and a Pg prospect amongst Williams, Sergio, and Rajon in that order. That was my second choice behind trading up for Bargnani. gsuteke, you thought SW was going to be a GD shotblocker in this league. WTF!?! Sene may average more BPG from the pine as a R-A-W prospect than SW. That's GD embarrassing for you. In 3 years Sene will be kicking you in the kidney when you're down on SW, day in and out.

Quote:

---

Subsequently if you assume there were trades available to the Hawks that would have netted them Marcus Williams

---

The guy fell 15 spots. You mean to tell me there wasn't a trade down in there anywhere? If only we hadn't tied our team up in knots with a promise to SW we could have done just about anything. Instead, we got YOUR wish. SW and Lo Wright. Good work gsuteke.

W

[Yeti]

Quote:

---

I'd like to get Oden sure, but don't want the team to tank and more importantly THEY WON'T TANK SO I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY HOPES THAT THEY WILL.

---

Personally, I think every day that we keep Woody as coach we are really tanking. - without being so obvious that the young guys get demoralized. Could we really do anymore to tank short of being flagrant?

---

You had a great openning for this thread. Touches on almost every controversial topic we've fought over. I can smell the napalm already. I happen to only disagree with you about BK - you missed a few things like his tendency to wait on trades until he only has one option left. Could he have gotten more for Al last year at the break? He doesn't seem to be able to deal with the media, the fans, or the other GMs. Why can't we make decent trades? Is it that BK doesn't try? they don't respect him? or don't trust him? Look at our level of activity on draft night against Portland's. Mixed score on drafting (I actually think you are right on the mark about Marvin and the Joshes - I hated the SW pick and wanted Roy in the backcourt with JJ). Why can't we go hard after Anderson if we are so weak at center? How were Lo, Speedy, and SW a major improvement this year? BK seems to have low standards and is content that we made marginal gains. We (the fans) drank the koolaid and are now starting to feel sick.

I think your comments on the players are pretty good. We have some talent but Woody is clueless on how to use it and there is no motivation to make a coaching change. I strongly agree with you on Batista and Solomon - they need to play or we need to move them. I just don't understand why Woody plays these 10day contracts but won't let Este and Solomon show what they can do.

I hope you put on your flakjacket, DocHawk

[TheDude]

i agree about the trading thing....seems that BK isn't able to pull a really strong trade for us to pull us through. I did like the JJ trade but all these send off a decent player for a midpick things can't keep happening...

now he doesnt have much he can do tradewise unless he gets rid of some young talent unless Lue or ZaZa can fetch us something. But then we trade pieces of our most weakest areas.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

At the time we drafted Marvin, these are the players we had under contract:

- Smoove

- Chill

- Ivey

- Diaw

- Harrington

THAT'S IT !!

---

I think that sums it up. 4 Sfs out of 5 players and we still drafted a hyped propsect at Sf. Brilliant.

Quote:

---

I think BK's philosophy was to find that "superstar" talent type player, then build around him.

---

Great philosophy. You can always use a superstar. Unfortunately, MW was never such a prospect and that fact was obvious to anyone who watch UNC.

This is simply more of massaging yourself so the hurt of being wrong doesn't feel so bad.

Quote:

---

But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

---

More massaging the pain of being wrong with 2nd guessing 2nd guessing.

You really have to be kidding me with this. JJ could hardly cap his enthusiasm playing with Paul. JS would easily be averaging 20 PPG with Paul. JJ about the same as he is now but even more efficient and in fewer MPG. And Paul would be where he is at right now. Similar with Deron. We'd still need a piece in the post, but nowhere what we need now.

W

W

[AtLaS]

Quote:

---

At the time we drafted Marvin, these are the players we had under contract:

- Smoove

- Chill

- Ivey

- Diaw

- Harrington

THAT'S IT !! 5 players, with Harrington being the obvious best player on the team. And he was also the guy who was most likely to bolt once the season was over.

---

you forgot Donta Smith who was picked at the top of the 2nd round not a year earlier.

Quote:

---

Before the draft, we'd missed out on Michael Redd, Ray Allen and Larry Hughes. JJ wasn't even in the picuture at draft time.

---

You can't sign players before the draft, we hadn't yet missed out on Hughes.

Quote:

---

When JJ became available, that kind of changed the landscape around here, and accellerated how good we could be, if we obtained the right pieces.

---

We knew before the season was over that JJ was going to be a RFA, this was nothing new.

Quote:

---

But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

---

We would still have JJ

[DrReality]

From now on when we want to get into all of this stuff we can just say: "Look at post #194770 and we won't have to type anything else.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Quote:

---

Ex . . I think one of the things that people overlook all the time about the Marvin pick is this.

At the time we drafted Marvin, these are the players we had under contract:

- Smoove

- Chill

- Ivey

- Diaw

- Harrington

THAT'S IT !! 5 players, with Harrington being the obvious best player on the team. And he was also the guy who was most likely to bolt once the season was over.

I think BK's philosophy was to find that "superstar" talent type player, then build around him.

Before the draft, we'd missed out on Michael Redd, Ray Allen and Larry Hughes. JJ wasn't even in the picuture at draft time.

To take Chris Paul, I believe that BK had to be convinced that he'd be a superstar PG in this league. An Isaiah Thomas like PG. I think he just didn't believe that. And when you look back on it, that's why he passed on Jameer Nelson, another solid PG, but took Smoove. He was looking for that "star".

And I also think that BK was looking at the prospect early on to have a lineup where Marvin, Smoove, and Chill would all be starters after Harrington bolted. Then he could add vets to the team around those 3 core guys.

When JJ became available, that kind of changed the landscape around here, and accellerated how good we could be, if we obtained the right pieces.

But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

---

Someone actually gets it. I think 2 years from now is when he lives up to that potential. He's a year away from noticeable improvement like the breakthrough that Smoove is having right now.

By then together they will be a sick compliment to JJ. And by then we should have a solid big man established whether if it's Solomon jones or someone through the draft.

If I could use a time machine I would just to see how great this team can possibly be. I can't wait.

[AHF]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

---

We would still have JJ

---

Yep. I have never understood under what scenario we wouldn't go after JJ if we had drafted Deron Williams or Chris Paul.

[ATLBob]

Quote:

---

Bob

What PG or Center prospect was available at #5 last year? if you think Shelden was a reach replace his name with

---

I refuse to reread Walter's post, so I don't remember how explicitly it dealt with the whole PG-C dynamic, and I don't get off on playing revisionist GM God, or however you so eloquently phrased it, but I do like to make a good, logical argument, so in answer to your question:

If we stayed at #5 we should have drafted Roy, or even Foye. I understand the position duplicity argument, JJ redux, et al, but draft position holds value. Either of those two players would have meant more to this team, both on the court and as assets off of it.

I would have preferred to trade the 5th pick. At #5 we should have had ample, and I mean AMPLE opportunity to trade down. Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, and yes, even Rudy Gay were all that hot at the time. Some one would have offered a package to get at one of those guys. Remember all the pre-draft hype: Roy= most complete player in the draft; Foye= next coming of D-Wade, right after Wade scintillated the nation en route to bringing Miami back from the depths of defeat to the glory of a championship; Gay= "perhaps the most physically gifted player in this draft, while there are concerns about his desire to take it to the next level, he could wind up being the best guy in the whole draft when its all said and done." Yada, yada, yada. Some GM would have offered something beneficial for a shot at one of these guys. But we simply yawned at them. Please don't counter with "how do you know BK didn't try. Maybe he did and no one would trade with us. He tried to move up to get Marcus Williams later, he tried." Don't give me that baloney, he promised Shelden, everyone knew it, we ceased to matter in trade discussions, as did the 5th pick; just absolutely grossly incompetent GM-ing.

As I don't believe Shelden was even on many War Room's Top Ten Board, had we been able to turn our 5th pick into two picks 10-20, we could have turned those two picks into a combination of:

A PF: Shelden (still), or if he happened to be selected prior to our first pick, then perhaps Cedric Simmons. I wasn't high on Shelden at the time, and I'm still not, but at least the pick would have been more palatable and correct value-wise after 10.

A project C: Sene or O'Bryant. O'Bryant is likely trash, and Sene is a super-duper project, but since you like to factor in past circumstance, then at the time there were reasonable hopes that one or both might eventually pan out.

But the kicker for the trade would have been our PG:

Marcus Williams, or I guess Rajon Rondo, if one prefers.

Or, we could have preferably gotten an already NBA seasoned interior role player, albeit underwhelming, but certainly as equally able to contribute as Shelden (I'm not going to scour rosters and offer tons of suggestions, think hypothetically: a Kwame-like underachiever, a Gomes or Lee type youngster with a lower ceiling, hell a Mikki Moore type vet)PLUS a lower pick to use on a PG, namely Marcus Williams.

High hopes aside, however, had we been utterly hell-bent on ignoring draft position value in fear of duplicating our talent-rich, diamond studded roster, and equally repulsed by the idea of a beneficial trade that either gave us a player and a pick or two picks ...

I still would have selected Marcus Williams over Shelden Williams every time

No shocking revisionist proclamation here. I posted as much last spring, in the months leading up to the draft, when I first discovered this board. Some ridiculed me, some seconded my position, per life. I stand by that position still. So, yes, in answer to your question, there was a PG available at #5 who I would have drafted instead of Shelden and his name is Marcus Williams. The Atlanta Hawks would have been better off, now and in the future; my conviction runs deep.

Our GM blew it. Oh well. I got over it. I hope Shelden progresses and becomes the interior defensive force we want him to become, that many on this board thought he would already be. He hasn't shown many flashes, but such an outcome remains expressly possible. He will be in the league a long time, and at some future point his play should become very consistent, but I doubt he will ever become on a dominant force, on this team or any other. Were he to morph into Boozer part deux, I'd be thrilled, we all would, and someone can type "I told you so."

[gsuteke]

taking Shelden over Marcus is a peculiar stance to me. I think Shelden was a better fit for us due to our lack of any post presence whatsoever.

I am wondering if Acie Law translates into the NBA his rookie season ala Shelden has this year. Shelden dominated in college but he's no longer the big boy out there. I do like Shelden's ability to put on even more weight with his frame though.

Marcus Williams is an interesting choice. choosing Williams would have set off a domino effect also. No Speedy Claxton. Who do we pick up to play PF?

Lucky for us there are a bunch of freshman point guards that will be available around 20 for us. unfortunately none will be ready to step in immediately.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

I am wondering if Acie Law translates into the NBA his rookie season ala Shelden has this year. Shelden dominated in college but he's no longer the big boy out there. I do like Shelden's ability to put on even more weight with his frame though.

---

Sheldens problem is a lack of reach. His standing reach is actually 4" shorter than Marvin.

The only question mark i have about Acie is his perimeter shot. His release is a little strange.

[gsuteke]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I am wondering if Acie Law translates into the NBA his rookie season ala Shelden has this year. Shelden dominated in college but he's no longer the big boy out there. I do like Shelden's ability to put on even more weight with his frame though.

---

Sheldens problem is a lack of reach. His standing reach is actually 4" shorter than Marvin.

The only question mark i have about Acie is his perimeter shot. His release is a little strange.

---

Shelden played against and did very well against taller players his entire career though at Duke such as Aldridge for instance. I think he went from being a bully to being average in the post. he's got the frame to put on 30 more pounds though if he wanted.

your point on his reach is valid though in terms of his shot blocking ability. I can only listen to the games while at work and even then it's sporadic. answer this question. does Woody play Shelden and Josh together very often? I like that combination.

[Guest Walter]

Quote:

---

he's got the frame to put on 30 more pounds though if he wanted.

---

I'm not even sure what good you think will come out of SW somehow looking like the stay-puff marshmallow man but he can't do it. Name the last 290 lb 6'7 1/2" player just for giggles.

Roy has averaged >6 APG the last 5 games and next to JJ his 20/5/4/1 would make the best guard tandem in the league. It never was about Marcus Williams alone as if we were going to get him we would likely also get a big (who coincidentally couldn't be worse than SW as shot blocking much less game or upside). Quite strawmanning it with notions of it was Marcus Williams vs. SW. Just dead wrong as are you about SW & the ability of ZaZa/Lo @ C.

W

[TheDude]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

he's got the frame to put on 30 more pounds though if he wanted.

---

Roy ...and next to JJ his 20/5/4/1 would make the best guard tandem in the league.

W

---

HA HA HA!! Roy is the next Jordan!!

[gsuteke]

he's right. i should have said 20.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

I am wondering if Acie Law translates into the NBA his rookie season ala Shelden has this year. Shelden dominated in college but he's no longer the big boy out there. I do like Shelden's ability to put on even more weight with his frame though.

---

Sheldens problem is a lack of reach. His standing reach is actually 4" shorter than Marvin.

The only question mark i have about Acie is his perimeter shot. His release is a little strange.

---

Shelden played against and did very well against taller players his entire career though at Duke such as Aldridge for instance. I think he went from being a bully to being average in the post. he's got the frame to put on 30 more pounds though if he wanted.

your point on his reach is valid though in terms of his shot blocking ability. I can only listen to the games while at work and even then it's sporadic. answer this question. does Woody play Shelden and Josh together very often? I like that combination.

---

OMG i have a ton of new "graemlins" underneath this box.

Anyway to answer your question they haven't played that much together lately since Shelden hasn't been getting many minutes. But they have played well together.

The most memorable game was against Denver. Shelden and Smith played the whole 4th quarter next to each other and Shelden spurred a 17 pt comeback victory by completely disrupting Denvers offense. I went back and watched the game again and counted 7 Denver passes that Shelden got his hand on in the 4th quarter.

[ATLBob]

Quote:

---

Marcus Williams is an interesting choice. choosing Williams would have set off a domino effect also. No Speedy Claxton. Who do we pick up to play PF?

---

Correct, no Speedy. As for PF, the entire point is predicted on the notion that we absolutely would have been able to trade down and acquire either another pick or an already establish PF role-player and Marcus Williams. There exists no doubt in my mind that this would have been possible. Possible, perhaps even probable, that the #5 pick could have turned into Marcus and Shelden Williams ...