Oh . . and by the way Mr. Diesel

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I purposely gave you a few days to see if you'd correct yourself in that whole Westidiot discussion the board had over the weekend. But you didn't.

You came at me with a "learn to do REAL REASEARCH" blast, citing a supposed mistake I'd made about Westhead and talking about how Wikipedia isn't fact.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....=&fpart=#195636

1) You should know by now that when I make an argument, whether if you or the board agrees with it or not, the things that I cite, especially when it comes to numbers, are FACTUAL. But everybody makes mistakes, and I'm not prone to making one every now and then.

Which leads me to . .

2) You're actually the one who needs to do REAL RESEARCH!. LOL @ trying to call me out about my lack of research skills. You better look in the mirror playa.

This is the link that you gave when you stated that Denver only gave up 114 ppg in 1991.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991.html

Only one problem with that buddy. That 114 number was their DEFENSIVE RATING according to basketball-reference.com, not how many PPG that they gave up. But yet, you tried to pass that off as their ppg number, to make your "argument" about Westidiot better.

LOL . . all you had to do is scroll down one more section on that page, to the Team and Opponents Statistics . . and you'd EASILY see that Denver gave up 130.8 ppg that season. And they let teams shoot well over 50% FG against them.

I've told you before. If you want to cite a good NBA statistics website, use databasebasketball.com, not basketball-reference.com. The DBB site is much more thorough in their statistics and they give you a few more features that B-R doesn't.

If you had, you wouldn't have made a careless mistake like that. I'm a detailed-oriented person . . almost to a fault. But that quality keeps me from making few mistakes, when it comes to citing things. But like I said, even I'm not error-free all the time either.

http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamye...EN&lg=n&yr=1990

You did get the ppg total ( 108 ) correct when talking about the 91 - 92 Nugget team. At least you paid attention to detail that time. And by the way, it was the 90 - 91 . . and 91 - 92 seasons that Westhead coached the Nuggets . . in case that wasn't clearly stated in that other thread.

You know why they were a better defensive team in 91 - 92? Because Denver actually added some people who could play defense ( Mutumbo and Mark Macon ), and Westidiot actually started to abandon that idiotic philosophy of chucking and ducking.

He actually ran offense through Dikembe at times. It's amazing, but Dik actually had his most field goal and free throw attempts in a season under Westhead . . the total opposite of his philosophy. They went from a team that saw Michael Adams alone take damn near 570 threes by himself, to a team that took just a little over 400 threes total. In other words, Westidiot let go of that philosophy, and actually tried to do like a regular coach.

The Nuggets let go of their top 3 scorers from the previous season . . Adams - 26 ppg, Woolridge - 25 ppg, and Walter Davis - 19 ppg . . and actually got a little better as a team.

So you're 1/2 right Diesel. With better personnel, he did make a little improvement. But he had to scrap his idiotic run and gun system, and get rid of non-defense playing players to do it.

Next time, just make sure you've dotted all of your "i's" and crossed all of your "t's", before you call somebody out about their "lack of research".

( exhale ) . . that feels better.

[Diesel]

I did misread the site and made the mistake of taking it as fact.

But before we get lost in the "I was wrong you were right" of it all..

My original point is still true. The PPGs were heading downward with the addition of Defensive personnell. It's Style and Personnell that determines what a team will do, not one without the other.

It's flawed Judgement to think that Westhead should be graded on that one year alone as if that's all he does. His defensive PPG droped by 23 ppg in one year. Woody has had 4 years here.. How much has his defensive stats changed. I think that it's very misleading to say that Westhead didn't teach defense. He wasn't a coach who relied on Defense like Jeff Van Gundy, but with the right personnell he made it do what it does.

[Guest Walter]

That simply shocks me. I don't care about you guy's argument, just the fact that such a number seems (pun alert) indefensible.

W

[Popeye]

Did they shoot at their own basket or what?

[Diesel]

That same year, The Hawks gave up 109.5 ppg and were ranked 20th in defense. That means that there were 7 other teams who were worse.