Should we be looking at the draft??

[Guest Walter]

...this current Hawk team.

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If there was a 60% chance that we could get Oden, I might be on board.

If there was a 80% chance that we could get Oden, I'd be on board.

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Diesel, there is never such a ridiculously high chance so no one would ever tank if they had such a standard. The fact is you don't consider whether to tank in a vacuum! You have to consider the odds of our getting such a player without tanking and compare them.

You yourself have insisted you do not believe ownership will spend near the cap. Knowing that and the fact that you offer no other plan, what is anyone to suspect but that tanking, even at a 50% success rate in terms of winning a top 3 pick, is better than the odds of a 30 win team with compromised ownership who won't spend more than the MLE AT BEST, whose cap space is dwindling fast, and who won't be able to resign all its young talent is going to get that vital, star post presence piece.

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There's a greater chance that we give Phoenix the 4th pick than we get Oden.

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This is simply more strawman, blatantly inaccurate statistics, inflammatory, and besides the point.

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Can this team win without a dominant Big man?

The answer is yes indeed.

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You didn't believe this up until this argument. You've fantasy traded for JO like he was our savior.

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Either way, we can

surivive

and we

may even

make the playoffs.

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Now that is more like it. A loser wanting this franchise to merely "survive" or at best ("may even") make the playoffs. Now that is a loser's win. Thank you Diesel for clarifying your modest hopes for this franchise. Your loser's win scenario should be unattractive if not disgusting to anyone who has any competitive spirit in them. Unlike you, I don't question people's fandom. I do question your competitve desire. Winning isn't surviving. This is sport. Act like it or consider yourself a heartless chump.

W

[DJlaysitup]

Yep...unbelievable.

[AtLaS]

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Diesel, frankly, I am shocked at the kind of odds you would demand to make tanking worth it. MAYBE at a 60% chance at Oden? Maybe? Are you kidding me??? If we get Greg Oden, we are a guaranteed title contender for the next 10 years, and MAYBE you'd go for tanking if we had a 60% shot at getting him?

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I guess you didn't read this quote..

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I haven't even begun to talk about the damage that it would do to the team win or lose the lottery. Like I have said before: You can't tell the team that you suck one year and then the next year tell them to go out and win...

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I have also made this point the last 2 months regarding the tanking argument. You are telling the players that they aren't good enough, and next year telling them to win. It's just not smart, especially if you DON'T get a top 3 pick, then the damage is done and everyone will want out and/or not resign.

Besides there is no way we will be the worst team in the league anyway, and each spot further we fall (in terms of tanking) it significantly reduces our chances at a top 3 pick.

We also still don't know that Oden or Durant will come out.

[gsuteke]

everything is moving in the right direction.

let's just blow everything up though and start losing games on purpose. now that's a great plan!

I understand the Hawks need a Center. If you think that the Hawks are going to finish with a bottom 3 record though you're just not being honest with yourself.

Philly 5 more losses

Boston 7 more

Memphis 9 more

With 30 games remaining finishing with the worst record in the league is next to impossible.

[Guest Walter]

GSUteke, the question started with whether we will have made a mistake to not tank earlier if both Oden and Durant do not come out. I said no as we need at least one in the draft to have justified it. I asked in return if we don't make the playoffs and both enter the draft if it would be a inverse mistake in return. I conceeded to the facts on my part, but of course, the opposing side balked at any notion that tanking could be justified.

This isn't about whether to tank now. Too late for that. It's about whether we should have tanked based upon end of season and draft entry results.

W

[gsuteke]

I've gotten 2 citations in 2 days now

[Guest Walter]

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I've gotten 2 citations in 2 days now

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I recind the ticket. Be on your way and spell how you like.

Although, at least when you spell poorly it still makes perfect, logical sense. "taking" is illogical.

W

[Diesel]

That's still a 40% chance of not getting him.

If you flip a coin 5 times, 2 of those times you lose.

Still...

We're not talking about 60% chance. We're talking about a 25% chance and with that comes a 35.8% chance that we give #4 to Phoenix... AND that is with us being the worst team in the league.

[Guest Walter]

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We're not talking about 60% chance. We're talking about a 25% chance and with that comes a 35.8% chance that we give #4 to Phoenix... AND that is with us being the worst team in the league.

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The opposite of that 35.8% is a 64.2% that we keep a top 3 pick. Of course, I have yet to see you acknowledge that in 1000000000 anti-tank posts. 5 minutes before the next, "there is no guarantee with tanking (and that's bad)" post from Diesel, one that offers no guarantee with his "plan".

W

[Diesel]

If you tank... WiN or Lose, there will be damage. You just hope that the reward is so great that you can afford to trade off the damaged players.

We've tanked before when it was the right time to tank. We got exactly what we wanted, the worse record in the NBA... We picked Marvin #2.

Now, if you just place that same thing on this team.. we tank, get the worse record, pick #2.

I hate to say it, but there's prolly no Oden in our future.

And for as much as I like Durant, I don't think Durant and the eventual wait on his development is worth the fallout that would follow us tanking again!

[Diesel]

There's a chance to stay in the top 3.. Whooptidoo...

What happens if we get #3 Walter??

What's your scenerio then?

[AtLaS]

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There's a chance to stay in the top 3.. Whooptidoo...

What happens if we get #3 Walter??

What's your scenerio then?

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Trust me I've already asked him that, read my sig to find his scenario for if we get Durant, but not that I would mind getting Durant, just saying his scenario is rediculous. He'll probably say Thabeet or trade the pick for a big or somethin

[Diesel]

That's the problem.. well multiple problems

Oden is the only player in this draft that would make us better in JJ's time. That means that as much as I like Durant, I realize that there's a 2 year wait for him to get up to NBA development. That's 2 years that JJ wastes. That's 2 years that we will have to figure out what we will do with this nucleus and the answer is likely trade them off for Picks.

Moreover, nobody wants to play for a loser. If we purposely lose, we accomplish these things:

1. We alienate our players.

2. We say to the league that we're not about winning.

3. We say to the world that our front office is incompetent.

4. We say to Hawks fans and season ticket holders Screw you.

Finally, there's no guarantee that Oden or Durant comes out this year. NONE...

It would be really bad if they don't come out or Oden doesn't come out and we get the 3rd pick... have to pick somebody who sucks like Thabeet and then watch next year as Phoenix takes our 1st round pick...

[Guest Walter]

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Trust me I've already asked him that, read my sig to find his scenario for if we get Durant, but not that I would mind getting Durant, just saying his scenario is rediculous. He'll probably say Thabeet or trade the pick for a big or somethin

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Mind you, quite a few mocks have Durant ahead of Oden. I can see a circumstance where a team is willing to exchange the 1st for the 2nd pick for another prospect even. Regardless, if you've watched Durant, you know you keep him. Unlike MW, he's a player worth working out the details later over. You take Durant and laugh all the way to the playoffs his 1st year, regardless. You try and package MW or JC and SW for the right center compliment, but that's minor when you have a talent like Durant. He's the real deal. A phenom.

W

[bfwolf]

Well, the chances of having Oden in our future is very small indeed based on our recent performance. Tanking is obviously out at this point; pretty much all of us who were in favor of tanking admit that it's too late now to significantly improve our odds at Oden. I will say though that there is still one good reason to root against the Hawks:

We need to fire Woodson.

Even if everything goes the way the Hawks need it to go to compete with this team (i.e. Josh Smith keeps improving at an exponential pace, we somehow pick up starter-quality PG and C, Marvin Williams becomes a good player), we will never succeed with Woodson at the helm. We've got to get a coach in here who wants to RUN. I'd happily lose every single game for the rest of the season if it meant Woodson would go.

[bfwolf]

There's no 2 year wait for Durant. He will, of course, get better after being in the league a few years, but he will be a stud his rookie year. Guaranteed.

[Diesel]

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Even if everything goes the way the Hawks need it to go to compete with this team (i.e. Josh Smith keeps improving at an exponential pace, we somehow pick up starter-quality PG and C, Marvin Williams becomes a good player), we will never succeed with Woodson at the helm.

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There's internal strife in your commentary...

First off, if everything goes the way of the Hawks how can you not hold Woody somewhat responsible... Just as if everything were to go wrong it would all be Woody's fault.

Let's not misunderstand this: Woody was given a raw deal. He was given the youngest team in the league and on top of that, one of the most injured. If he can win out and make the playoffs, i'm for keeping Woody. If he wins out and don't make the playoffs, if a guy like Adelman or Carlismo wants to come here, I'd take them. However, I'd still give Woody his "props".

Woody not liking to run is a problem, but I think it's a problem that's easily fixed by the GM. BK can show up one day with a new top assistant by the name of Westhead and Westhead will show you how to set up a running offense. If you don't like it, we can replace you with somebody else.

It's that simple.

[Diesel]

I'm saying that because he's 6'10 210 lbs and the place that we will most likely play him is PF... that he needs to "grow into that role"...

Now we can put him at Sf...

But what would tanking have done..

Brought BK his 6th drafted Sf since he's been here?

[bfwolf]

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Even if everything goes the way the Hawks need it to go to compete with this team (i.e. Josh Smith keeps improving at an exponential pace, we somehow pick up starter-quality PG and C, Marvin Williams becomes a good player), we will never succeed with Woodson at the helm.

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There's internal strife in your commentary...

First off, if everything goes the way of the Hawks how can you not hold Woody somewhat responsible... Just as if everything were to go wrong it would all be Woody's fault.

Let's not misunderstand this: Woody was given a raw deal. He was given the youngest team in the league and on top of that, one of the most injured. If he can win out and make the playoffs, i'm for keeping Woody. If he wins out and don't make the playoffs, if a guy like Adelman or Carlismo wants to come here, I'd take them. However, I'd still give Woody his "props".

Woody not liking to run is a problem, but I think it's a problem that's easily fixed by the GM. BK can show up one day with a new top assistant by the name of Westhead and Westhead will show you how to set up a running offense. If you don't like it, we can replace you with somebody else.

It's that simple.

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A little internal strife, but not too much. Getting a quality PG and C is a GM job, so Woodson wouldn't be particularly involved there. Would Woodson have something to do with Josh Smith and Marvin improving significantly? Probably. But could another coach do the same thing? Again, probably. I'm much more likely to lay the improvement or lack thereof of an NBA player at the feet of the player than the feet of a coach. In other words, if Josh Smith and Marvin are destined to be good, I don't think it's going to matter much in their development who is coaching them.

The style a team plays, on the other hand, is all about the coach. And you and I agree that the style we play is all wrong. Woodson is just not a running coach. Never has been and never will be. Why bring in a running assistant and tell Woody he's got to run when you can just replace Woody with somebody who actually WANTS to run?

As for Durant, I don't care if we've got 17 guys who play his position. Trade them all. This guy is the real deal.

[Guest Walter]

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The style a team plays, on the other hand, is all about the coach. And you and I agree that the style we play is all wrong. Woodson is just not a running coach. Never has been and never will be. Why bring in a running assistant and tell Woody he's got to run when you can just replace Woody with somebody who actually WANTS to run?

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I don't understand Diesel's strong defense of Woody. Odd.

I am curious as to whom we can get to coach us just like I'm curious as to what if any impact FA we could lure here (assuming we could much less would even pay them).

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As for Durant, I don't care if we've got 17 guys who play his position. Trade them all. This guy is the real deal.

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Yep. He would step in and be an instant relief for JJ. I don't get the 2-yrs this or that nonsense. Durant in NBA-ready. He may look skinny but he put on weight last year and he doesn't play skinny. He gets almost 13 RPG! That goes with his awesome scoring, steals, and shot blocking. Those are big boy numbers he has and his game as easily translates to the NBA as any prospect I've seen.

W