Should we be looking at the draft??

[bfwolf]

Walter, if I were a prospective NBA coach who liked to run, Atlanta's situation after this year is absolutely one I would be interested in. We're not the 13 win team from a couple of years ago. I think that with a new coach who gets this team running, and with the improvement our players are showing, we've got a great shot of being a .500 team next year. That's a pretty good opportunity for a new coach to step into. With the improvement the team shows, he'll instantly be a semi-hero in Atlanta.

[AHF]

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Walter, if I were a prospective NBA coach who liked to run, Atlanta's situation after this year is absolutely one I would be interested in. We're not the 13 win team from a couple of years ago. I think that with a new coach who gets this team running, and with the improvement our players are showing, we've got a great shot of being a .500 team next year. That's a pretty good opportunity for a new coach to step into. With the improvement the team shows, he'll instantly be a semi-hero in Atlanta.

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Why would you want to come here with the ownership situation in flux and the possibility that the GM who hired you and would back you will be out the door at some indeterminate point in time in the few weeks, months, years, etc.

[VarsitySlacker]

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GSUteke, the question started with whether we will have made a mistake to not tank earlier if both Oden and Durant do not come out. I said no as we need at least one in the draft to have justified it. I asked in return if we don't make the playoffs and both enter the draft if it would be a inverse mistake in return. I conceeded to the facts on my part, but of course, the opposing side balked at any notion that tanking could be justified.

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No, Diesel balked. Entirely different.

The tank situation is VERY similar to the CP/MW situation. Next year at midseason, if we aren't in a strong position for a playoff run, then it's pretty evident that we SHOULD have tanked. Bear in mind, this doesn't mean "tell your players to lose," it means "keep JJ at only about 35 minutes a game, tell Smoove NOT to come back so fast from his injury in lieu of reaggravating it, and trading off Zaza/Lo/any other stiffs that don't need to be on the team for what we can get for them.

A few months ago, the topic was posted "If you picked NOW, would you still pick MW over CP and DW?" (Perhaps someone can find it for me) I don't know the exact numbers, but 1 person out of about 30 said yes. But it took until the next season to acknowledge that yes, a PG would have been the right pick.

Now, before you jump on my ass like you all love to jump on Walter (and he is so often deserving of it), I don't want to tank. I think this team is on the verge of being a playoff contender, and with a competent big (Re: Not necessarily dominant, but not Zaza), and either a healthy speedy or a playmaking PG, we'll be in the upper echelon of the east (for whatever that's worth). If this is true, then I really don't doubt that, at the very least, Walter will shut up about tanking in retrospect, because it wouldn't have been a good idea.

However, if I'm wrong and we're not major contenders, and at this point next year we're still 5 games out of the 8 seed, and Greg Oden and/or Kevin Durant are tearing up the league, then Walter will be right, tanking would have been a better idea.

Honestly, 80% of this board needs to get rid of their own egos and post as a Hawks fan and not as a message board superstar. We'd be better off if names weren't displayed, because I'm pretty damn sick of the "Oh God, Walter posted, I'm going to post the dead horse emoticon because it's the funny thing to do and lololololol. The man makes some (stubborn yet )good points, but you're too busy being trendy and ignoring them. Grow up.

[gsuteke]

classic.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter, if I were a prospective NBA coach who liked to run, Atlanta's situation after this year is absolutely one I would be interested in. We're not the 13 win team from a couple of years ago. I think that with a new coach who gets this team running, and with the improvement our players are showing, we've got a great shot of being a .500 team next year. That's a pretty good opportunity for a new coach to step into. With the improvement the team shows, he'll instantly be a semi-hero in Atlanta.

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I'm sure our team is full of a bunch of likable guys and it has some talent, but this ownership situation means you either won't get the financial support while it's being resolved or once it's resolved you might get your severence check at any moment. Tack on the low attendence, the 9 losing seasons, the team flaws not likely to be resolved, questions about whether BK can ever build a winning team and whether he will ever conceed any power...really, this is not a prospective coach's dream. It's a nightmare. I'm not kidding. The ownership situation is the primary reason and that's not going to be resolved anytime soon.

Coaches aren't looking to be semi-heros for 10,000 fans who applaud mediocrity. At this level you have to be a little bit of a megalomaniac much like a politician. They want a chance to win it all, power, but all that starts with at least job security (Maslow's hierarchy of needs). There is none here.

W

[Guest Walter]

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I conceeded to the facts on my part, but of course, the opposing side balked at any notion that tanking could be justified.

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No, Diesel balked. Entirely different.

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Sorry VarsitySlacker, your position to judge whether we SHOULD have tanked mid season of next year (like this board judge that we shouldn't have picked MW over Paul or Deron mid season this year) is a reasonable one.

I should add for comparison, the decision to pick SW over Roy can be judged now. Man, that was an ugly pick in every sense of ugly. So ugly there is no need to wait a year to review it.

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Next year at midseason, if we aren't in a strong position for a playoff run, then it's pretty evident that we SHOULD have tanked. Bear in mind, this doesn't mean "tell your players to lose," it means "keep JJ at only about 35 minutes a game, tell Smoove NOT to come back so fast from his injury in lieu of reaggravating it, and trading off Zaza/Lo/any other stiffs that don't need to be on the team for what we can get for them.

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Be careful VS, you're in danger of earning the ire of the Bobby Sura contingency so accurately reflecting the tank position of a month ago.

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A few months ago, the topic was posted "If you picked NOW, would you still pick MW over CP and DW?" (Perhaps someone can find it for me) I don't know the exact numbers, but 1 person out of about 30 said yes. But it took until the next season to acknowledge that yes, a PG would have been the right pick.

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I guess my issue is why did people support the MW drafting decision so. I felt and still feel it was a faith-based "decision". People wanted so much to believe it was the correct decision for this team despite in most cases their own reservations that they bought into it. Gotta be stronger people. Gotta trust your gut. Don't bring faith into a reasoned discussion. Any doubt as to who still voted yes for MW?

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Now, before you jump on my ass like you all love to jump on Walter (and he is so often deserving of it), I don't want to tank. I think this team is on the verge of being a playoff contender, and with a competent big (Re: Not necessarily dominant, but not Zaza), and either a healthy speedy or a playmaking PG, we'll be in the upper echelon of the east (for whatever that's worth). If this is true, then I really don't doubt that, at the very least, Walter will shut up about tanking in retrospect, because it wouldn't have been a good idea.

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It's going to be hard not to talk about it once we watch Oden and Durant. They are going to be gang-busters in this league. Oden is a force and Durant ...I haven't seen a a guy who more suits the NBA game than him since Lebron.

God, I hope we look awesome next year. I don't want to be right as it will pain me everytime I see Oden or Durant.

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However, if I'm wrong and we're not major contenders, and at this point next year we're still 5 games out of the 8 seed, and Greg Oden and/or Kevin Durant are tearing up the league, then Walter will be right, tanking would have been a better idea.

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Even the words hurt.

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Honestly, 80% of this board needs to get rid of their own egos and post as a Hawks fan and not as a message board superstar. We'd be better off if names weren't displayed, because I'm pretty damn sick of the "Oh God, Walter posted, I'm going to post the dead horse emoticon because it's the funny thing to do and lololololol. The man makes some (stubborn yet )good points, but you're too busy being trendy and ignoring them. Grow up.

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You and AHF are voices of reason.

W

[AHF]

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I guess my issue is why did people support the MW drafting decision so. I felt and still feel it was a faith-based "decision". People wanted so much to believe it was the correct decision for this team despite in most cases their own reservations that they bought into it. Gotta be stronger people. Gotta trust your gut. Don't bring faith into a reasoned discussion. Any doubt as to who still voted yes for MW?

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The rationale behind the Marvin Williams pick wasn't bad, IMO. The theory was that he was most talented prospect and one player who had potential to be a superstar in that draft. Even though we had Chills and Smoove, neither had proven very much and we decided we needed someone who could be a true superstar more than we needed to draft to fill our vacant PG position. This was before we had JJ and there was no proven star on the team.

The aspect of this rationale that is so frustrating in retrospect, of course, is that the point guards appear not only to fill need better but also to be higher potential talents.

Even though the pick has proven to date to be a mistake, it was not without some logic.

[hawkman]

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GSUteke, the question started with whether we will have made a mistake to not tank earlier if both Oden and Durant do not come out. I said no as we need at least one in the draft to have justified it. I asked in return if we don't make the playoffs and both enter the draft if it would be a inverse mistake in return. I conceeded to the facts on my part, but of course, the opposing side balked at any notion that tanking could be justified.

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No, Diesel balked. Entirely different.

The tank situation is VERY similar to the CP/MW situation. Next year at midseason, if we aren't in a strong position for a playoff run, then it's pretty evident that we SHOULD have tanked. Bear in mind, this doesn't mean "tell your players to lose," it means "keep JJ at only about 35 minutes a game, tell Smoove NOT to come back so fast from his injury in lieu of reaggravating it, and trading off Zaza/Lo/any other stiffs that don't need to be on the team for what we can get for them.

A few months ago, the topic was posted "If you picked NOW, would you still pick MW over CP and DW?" (Perhaps someone can find it for me) I don't know the exact numbers, but 1 person out of about 30 said yes. But it took until the next season to acknowledge that yes, a PG would have been the right pick.

Now, before you jump on my ass like you all love to jump on Walter (and he is so often deserving of it), I don't want to tank. I think this team is on the verge of being a playoff contender, and with a competent big (Re: Not necessarily dominant, but not Zaza), and either a healthy speedy or a playmaking PG, we'll be in the upper echelon of the east (for whatever that's worth). If this is true, then I really don't doubt that, at the very least, Walter will shut up about tanking in retrospect, because it wouldn't have been a good idea.

However, if I'm wrong and we're not major contenders, and at this point next year we're still 5 games out of the 8 seed, and Greg Oden and/or Kevin Durant are tearing up the league, then Walter will be right, tanking would have been a better idea.

Honestly, 80% of this board needs to get rid of their own egos and post as a Hawks fan and not as a message board superstar. We'd be better off if names weren't displayed, because I'm pretty damn sick of the "Oh God, Walter posted, I'm going to post the dead horse emoticon because it's the funny thing to do and lololololol. The man makes some (stubborn yet )good points, but you're too busy being trendy and ignoring them. Grow up.

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Great post. I don't agree that we should "tank" the season, but I also don't see the point of another 20-30 win season either. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of this team's play. We can beat a great team one night and then lose to the worst team in the league on our home court. And when I say lose, I mean we get run out of the friggin building. I honestly don't believe that this team is good enough to make the playoffs this season. That's sad when you think of the fact that this rebuilding thing has been going on for a few years now. I'm pretty sure that THIS is NOT what most Hawks fans had in mind when they thought that BK would build the Hawks team of the future. Even if you take away Speedy Claxton and replace him with Sam Cassel, we probably still end up with the same record we have now. After watching almost every Hawks game I possibly could over the last few seasons, I can honestly say that I'm disappointed with the development and construction of this team. I understand where Walter is coming from. He wants change and I don't blame him. We all have to admit that we have been watching some pretty bad basketball over the years and if the team continues on "as-is", we can look forward to a team that ranges from bottom feeder at worst to mediocre at best for the next few years. I can't fault Walter if he wants to sacrifice this season to change that.

[TexasPete]

But this would not be the year to tank regardless. There are two teams that will absolutely battle for the worst record...the C's and the Griz. We can't "catch" them. Because PHX owns our pick, if its not top 3 then what exactly is the point of tanking? If the Suns did not own our pick I might see the logic. One of these years we need to learn the mechanics of winning. If we could get a PG and some help inside before the deadline I think we have the core of a nice situation.

[VarsitySlacker]

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But this would not be the year to tank regardless. There are two teams that will absolutely battle for the worst record...the C's and the Griz. We can't "catch" them. Because PHX owns our pick, if its not top 3 then what exactly is the point of tanking? If the Suns did not own our pick I might see the logic. One of these years we need to learn the mechanics of winning. If we could get a PG and some help inside before the deadline I think we have the core of a nice situation.

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I disagree with your initial statement - were there a year to tank, this would absolutely be it. With two game-changers coming out in the draft, and ESPECIALLY with the amount of injuries that have plagued this team, it would be very easy for us to be significantly worse than both the Cs and the Grizz. What's our record without JJ? What's our record without Smoove? Both of them were rushed back from injury in a panic, but the timetable on Smoove almost extended to now (though not entirely). If we had gone 1-13 in January instead of 7-7 (which is very feasible based on the way the team plays without Smoove), then we're in a top position for a top spot.

And as a side note, though it doesn't condone a point for either side...For all the talk about the Hawks bad luck, remember when the Celtics tanked HARD to get Tim Duncan? Anybody remember who they came out with? That's got to be just as bad as us, if not worse.

[TexasPete]

I'm talking about tanking now. It's too late to tank because we can never catch the C's or Griz. I'm not sure either team wins 21 games all year. So, the issue is settled unless we get extremely lucky in the drawing.

You never know, the Bucks got the top pick two years ago. But its not worth worrying about, or losing for, at this point. Let's win and see what happens.

[hawkman]

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But this would not be the year to tank regardless. There are two teams that will absolutely battle for the worst record...the C's and the Griz. We can't "catch" them. Because PHX owns our pick, if its not top 3 then what exactly is the point of tanking? If the Suns did not own our pick I might see the logic. One of these years we need to learn the mechanics of winning.

If we could get a PG and some help inside before the deadline I think we have the core of a nice situation.

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We've had that same problem for the last few seasons. We supposedly "addressed" that with signing of Speedy and Lo Wright during the offseason. How much you wanna bet that we'll still need a C and PG next season?

[VarsitySlacker]

Yeah, that's my fault. I lost track of where I was going in the post, I meant to add the addendum "Even Walter has conceded that it's too late to tank now." Sorry.

[AHF]

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But this would not be the year to tank regardless. There are two teams that will absolutely battle for the worst record...the C's and the Griz. We can't "catch" them. Because PHX owns our pick, if its not top 3 then what exactly is the point of tanking? If the Suns did not own our pick I might see the logic. One of these years we need to learn the mechanics of winning. If we could get a PG and some help inside before the deadline I think we have the core of a nice situation.

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I disagree with your initial statement - were there a year to tank, this would absolutely be it. With two game-changers coming out in the draft, and ESPECIALLY with the amount of injuries that have plagued this team, it would be very easy for us to be significantly worse than both the Cs and the Grizz.

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I don't think we could have tanked that easily - even without Smoove. For goodness sakes, the Celtics lost what 18 in a row? That isn't easy to beat for a team with a pulse.

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And as a side note, though it doesn't condone a point for either side...For all the talk about the Hawks bad luck, remember when the Celtics tanked HARD to get Tim Duncan? Anybody remember who they came out with?

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They did draft and quit way too early on Chauncy Billups and Ron Mercer had a few good years as a productive scorer. Still no Timmy, though!

[Diesel]

I don't have a strong defense of Woody.

The premise was "if everything for the Hawks started to work out"...

My statement was that if everything worked out to the point that the Hawks made it to the playoffs, then I would give Woody another chance.

If we missed the playoffs and a guy like Adelman or Carlisimo wanted the job, I would give them the job..

How is that a strong defense of Woody Walter???

Sometimes, I wonder if you even read?

[Guest Walter]

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My statement was that if everything worked out to the point that the Hawks made it to the playoffs, then I would give Woody another chance.

If we missed the playoffs and a guy like Adelman or Carlisimo wanted the job, I would give them the job.

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...means another 3 year deal. We already know that Woody is not going to play to this team's strengths. Let's not enter into another long term deal with someone we know is less than adequate.

P.S. I wouldn't compare Carlisimo and Adelman. If Adelman wants the job I don't care what Woody does, give it to him.

W

[DJlaysitup]

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I'm talking about tanking now. It's too late to tank because we can never catch the C's or Griz. I'm not sure either team wins 21 games all year. So, the issue is settled unless we get extremely lucky in the drawing.

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Bottom line is we got "out-tanked". JS killed us by being the anti-tanker. Boston or Memphis will get Oden. My bet's on Boston.

[TexasPete]

Paul Pierce does make a big difference for the C's. I have a feeling Gasol will be moved and if that is the case the Griz should have the inside track.

[bfwolf]

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Walter, if I were a prospective NBA coach who liked to run, Atlanta's situation after this year is absolutely one I would be interested in. We're not the 13 win team from a couple of years ago. I think that with a new coach who gets this team running, and with the improvement our players are showing, we've got a great shot of being a .500 team next year. That's a pretty good opportunity for a new coach to step into. With the improvement the team shows, he'll instantly be a semi-hero in Atlanta.

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I'm sure our team is full of a bunch of likable guys and it has some talent, but this ownership situation means you either won't get the financial support while it's being resolved or once it's resolved you might get your severence check at any moment. Tack on the low attendence, the 9 losing seasons, the team flaws not likely to be resolved, questions about whether BK can ever build a winning team and whether he will ever conceed any power...really, this is not a prospective coach's dream. It's a nightmare. I'm not kidding. The ownership situation is the primary reason and that's not going to be resolved anytime soon.

Coaches aren't looking to be semi-heros for 10,000 fans who applaud mediocrity. At this level you have to be a little bit of a megalomaniac much like a politician. They want a chance to win it all, power, but all that starts with at least job security (Maslow's hierarchy of needs). There is none here.

W

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You're right, I wasn't even thinking of the ownership situation. My bad. I guess we should hope for a quick resolution to that, at which point maybe a good coach would want to come here.

[Diesel]

I was talking from the perspective that Woody has 1 more year left on his original contract Walter.

So let me ask this..

IF Woody pulled this team together enough to make the playoffs after the bad start we had, you would still consider giving his job away??

What's that Racism?

or

Woody Hate?

Whatever it is, that makes no sense...

Our team was expected to be bad after we had the fire sale.

Are you holding that against Woody?

I have my difference with Woody in that I would like to see us as a running team. But if he finds a way to make us win otherwise, do I suggest penalizing him because he's not doing what I want him to do??

I think that's your problem Walt. You believe that you are right so you feel that whoever doesn't go with you must be wrong.

Well, let me be your governor right here. YOU'RE WRONG OFTEN...

For example:

1. When you said that Smitty for JR and JJ was a good deal... WRONG.

2. When you said that Googs would be the comeback player of the year... WRONG.

3. When you said that Big Country would be better than Deke in 2 years.... WRONG.

4. When you said that Deke would not be playing in 3 years (back in 2001)... Wrong..

5. Your whole Eddy Curry will be the next Shaq campaign... WRONG.

6. Your whole I hate Childress campaign of a couple of years ago... WRONG..

7. Your Chris Paul Hate campaign even suggesting that Paul would be another Lue. ..... Wrong

8. Your continued campaign for this team to tank... WRONG..

We could go on, but why..

The point is that you've been wrong far too many times for you to have such an ego driven problem.

If the players respond to Woody enough to make the playoffs then it doesn't matter if Phil Jackson calls and inquires about the job, Woody would have earned his final year.