How is it that...

[ATL_BALLER]

...when teams like Utah and Phoenix have a down season or two, they immediately turn it around - while our Hawks are in eternal rebuilding?

It's more of a rhetorical question - the answer is 3-fold: good coaching, management and luck.

Still, it's just frustrating to think about: Just a couple of seasons ago, Utah was struggling in the post Stockton-Malone era, then bam! Okhur, Boozer, AK47, Deron Williams - instant contenders. Similar scenario with the Suns: Even with Marion, they were treading water - then bam! Out with Marbury, in with Nash, Amare - instant contenders. I don't know - maybe my focus is too narrow, but it seems the good franchises are never down for long.

With Joe and Josh, I do see the light, for the first time in a looong time - but we're still taking baby steps to get there (13 wins to 26 wins is seen as progress - horray!).

Why don't we have that kind of instant (and sustained) success?

It's torture, I tell you...

[BusBoyIsBack]

Problem is that people are trying to pin all the poor decisioons made before the BK era on him.

That's the reason why we have no respect as it is.

Every year since we decided to build from the ground up, we've improved our win total. Last year we doubled our win total and this year, it's yet to be determined how many more wins we will have but you better believe we have taken another step.

Next year (if not this year) is when we take that step to the playoffs.

The fact that people are so impatient is ridiculous considering how long it takes to build a team from the ground up especially when you basically have the youngest roster in the NBA.

The future of this team is extremely bright. But you wouldn't know it because of the dark clouds of negativity thanks to fickle and pessmistic nature of Atlanta sports fans.

[Diesel]

When you have good coaching and a good ownership.. a great turnaround is always possible.

Phoenix can always get a free agent.

Utah has the best coach in the game.

that will always keep those guys in the hunt. Plus, those teams go into drafts knowing what they need to get. Good scouting and they draft for fit...

It's the teams like Atlanta who overvalue potential, who make redundant picks that end up taking longer than we should to get back to winning.

I will give BK this: He has done a good job of getting us to a place of Financial conservation (freedom). Unfortunately, that's only have the battle...

[bootsybug]

well you have to think about teams like new york and boston that have tremendous advantages (financially, recognition-wise, historically, etc.) and still can't turn it around. a lot of it is good management, and a lot of it is luck, too.

[Buzzard]

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a lot of it is good management, and a lot of it is luck, too.

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Vince Lombardi, "luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity."

It really is about management. The teams that do not stay down for long, simply will not allow it to happen. They hire good people and then manage to keep them for a very long time.

This is a old saying from the business world. "Good people are hard to find, they are even harder to keep."

Boston with Ainge and the Knicks with Thomas are great examples of bad management. The Jazz and Suns are great examples of good management.

Our Hawks have only approached the Suns and Jazz level once during my fandom. That was during the Drew/Roundfield/Tree era and the Nique/Doc/Willis era. Two pretty good teams built almost back to back. Jury is still out on BK and the Spirit.

They have not built one yet; much less put two together...

[KB21]

Exactly.

When this rebuilding started, the Hawks were basically an expansion team without the benefit of the expansion draft. They turned everyone on the roster over.

[exodus]

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Problem is that people are trying to pin all the poor decisioons made before the BK era on him.

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No the problem is that BK has chosen the 3rd best player 3 times with his top 10 picks.

[Buzzard]

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Exactly.

When this rebuilding started, the Hawks were basically an expansion team without the benefit of the expansion draft. They turned everyone on the roster over.

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Exactly. I guess the real doubt concerning their management ability actually started with that approach.

Why cut yourself down to a expansion payroll when you do not gain the advantage of a expansion draft? That honestly sounds like poor judgement or at least a lack of some sort of common sense.

Was it really based on what is best for the team being able to win? Or was the strategy based on the bottom line. Slashing payroll to a minimum with no regards for winning. We all know what owners say, of course it is about the winning. You honestly think any owner or owners is going to tell his fan base, "we are not going to have a large payroll; and if we cannot win with a small payroll you will just have to deal with it until we do."

If you look at the Hawks with RoundfieldTree and Drew. Roundfeild and Drew were both traded but a few peices were kept. Payroll was not cut down to nothing. Then by using trades and draft picks they built another winner exa. aquiring the rights to Nique and drafting Willis.

It is really sad when you hear our owners crying about money after all the payroll slashing they have done. If they could not afford the team they should have just steered clear.

[ATL_BALLER]

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The fact that people are so impatient is ridiculous considering how long it takes to build a team from the ground up especially when you basically have the youngest roster in the NBA.

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I agree that it can take awhile to build from the ground-up, and believe me, I'm patient - I wouldn't be a Hawks fan otherwise.

It's just frustrating to see teams like Utah, Phoenix, etc. turn things around so quickly with perfect player acquisition and coaching - while we're constantly waiting (during the Babcock era and now) and trying to find the right mix.

We have two fantastic pieces to build around - but Woody has to go!

[Vol4ever]

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When you have good coaching and a good ownership.. a great turnaround is always possible.

Phoenix can always get a free agent.

Utah has the best coach in the game.

that will always keep those guys in the hunt. Plus, those teams go into drafts knowing what they need to get. Good scouting and they draft for fit...

It's the teams like Atlanta who overvalue potential, who make redundant picks that end up taking longer than we should to get back to winning.

I will give BK this: He has done a good job of getting us to a place of Financial conservation (freedom). Unfortunately, that's only have the battle...

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I agree. This franchise does not have the GM or ownership the other teams have. Let's face it we could have had a Tyson Chandler or Eddy Curry both who are much better than we have. If this ownership has to choose between going economical or spending the money to win, we will be losers!

[ATL_BALLER]

The Shuerholz/Cox regime has sustained success on a reduced budget (relatively-speaking) with incredible creativity, boldness, and coaching.

I know it's apples and oranges, and I'll give credit to Billy for bringing in Joe and Smoove. It's also obvious we need a real GM/Coach tandem to take us to the next level.

[Swatguy]

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The Shuerholz/Cox regime has sustained success on a reduced budget (relatively-speaking) with incredible creativity, boldness, and coaching.

I know it's apples and oranges, and I'll give credit to Billy for bringing in Joe and Smoove. It's also obvious we need a real GM/Coach tandem to take us to the next level.

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You jest, The Braves have had a top 5 payroll for the last 12-13 years.

[ATL_BALLER]

When Time Warner took over, they were forced to cut significant payroll, and now operate more as a mid-market team.

[lunar]

really when it came to utah and phoenix, they had a much better situation going into rebuilding than we did. utah had two HOFers still on the team when they started to slide so they were still able to put up the sense that they were a legit team. they also hit it big in the draft with AK47. but the jazz still were criticized when they gave out the deals to boozer and okur, it hasn't been smooth sailing for them and their fans gave their GM the same flack that we give BK. only now that they've had time to adjust to the team are they good. don't forget that they weren't a playoff team either for a while.

phoenix benifits alot from keeping their draft picks. they drafted and developed four of their starters, and used another rookie (joe johnson - traded rookie year to them) to aquire another. they were able to get free agents later on (nash, thomas' and bell) later on but they had to endure a couple bad seasons before showing others that they were ready to compete.

[Swatguy]

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When Time Warner took over, they were forced to cut significant payroll, and now operate more as a mid-market team.

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"mid-market" ? Last three years payroll was 9th, 10th, 8th. Averaged over 90 mil while 16,19 and 18 teams those years with less than 75 mil.

Next 7 years the Braves ranked 3,7,6,4,3,3 and 5th. That ain't "mid-market".

[ATL_BALLER]

Fair enough - but regardless, they can't afford to shell out the cash they used to, and have been forced to be creative with the reduced payroll.

[Vol4ever]

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The Shuerholz/Cox regime has sustained success on a reduced budget (relatively-speaking) with incredible creativity, boldness, and coaching.

I know it's apples and oranges, and I'll give credit to Billy for bringing in Joe and Smoove. It's also obvious we need a real GM/Coach tandem to take us to the next level.

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Yeah but the Braves are no longer the contender they were and BK is not in the same universe as JS.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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really when it came to utah and phoenix, they had a much better situation going into rebuilding than we did. utah had two HOFers still on the team when they started to slide so they were still able to put up the sense that they were a legit team. they also hit it big in the draft with AK47. but the jazz still were criticized when they gave out the deals to boozer and okur, it hasn't been smooth sailing for them and their fans gave their GM the same flack that we give BK. only now that they've had time to adjust to the team are they good. don't forget that they weren't a playoff team either for a while.

phoenix benifits alot from keeping their draft picks. they drafted and developed four of their starters, and used another rookie (joe johnson - traded rookie year to them) to aquire another. they were able to get free agents later on (nash, thomas' and bell) later on but they had to endure a couple bad seasons before showing others that they were ready to compete.

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Good post. I'll add a few things to it.

I don't think citing Phoenix and Utah as examples of how a franchise goes from zero to playoffs is a good example for us at all. Consider this:

Phoenix has had two sub-500 seasons in the past 7 years. But before each of those seasons, they made the playoffs by winning 51 games in 00 - 01, and 44 games in 02 - 03. So it wasn't like they were totally going through a rebuilding phase when they were losing.

People forget that Kidd was the PG in Phoenix at that time. And the ONLY reason why they let him go, was because of the domestic violence issues that he and his wife were having. Phoenix then trades Kidd in exchange in Marbury. Plus Phoenix lost their 3rd leading scorer from the 00 - 01 season ( Cliff Robinson - 16 ppg ) in that deal.

The 01 - 02 Suns featured Marion, Marbury, and Anfernee Hardaway. And they were the ONLY double digit scorers on that team. They didn't have enough talent to compete. That's why they fell off that year, winning 36 games.

So then that franchise takes a huge gamble on a high school kid in a 2002 draft that only saw ONE HS kid get drafted. He turns out to be an instant stud, and the Suns win 44 games the next year.

The 03 - 04 Suns were pretty much destined to be a 40 - 50 win team, but Amare got hurt in December of that year, which led to the Suns sliding dramatically. Couple that with the franchise and fans being disappointed in Marbury's inconsistent play, and it spelled disaster for the Suns that year.

Actually, the franchise and the fans expected Marbury to really elevate his play after Amare went down. And he actually played well, from an assist standpoint when Amare was out. But his shooting was erratic at best, and it cost Phoenix a lot of close games. So he became the scapegoat for why Phoenix was losing, instead of the obvious reason of Amare being out.

But their foundation was already set with Marion, Amare, and Joe Johnson, who had improved dramatically that season. So when they got the opportunity to get Nash away from Dallas, the cycle was pretty much complete for them.

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When you look at Utah, they've never fallen completely off the map, even with Stockton and Malone retiring. The year after their 2 Hall of Famers left the Jazz, Utah still managed to win 42 games, even though they didn't make the playoffs. And the only reason why they won 26 games during the 04 - 05 season, is because their "do-it-all guy" AK47 got hurt at the end of November, and the Jazz went into a 2 month freefall while he was out. That's the ONLY season since the 1982 - 83 season, in which the Jazz has had a sub-500 season.

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Our situation is a lot like what the Bulls went through after Michael, Scottie, and Dennis left Chicago, than anything. Like that Chicago team, we had to totally rebuild from scratch, and struggle to get quality free agents to the team. Remember, they used to be a team with a lot of young players that also had trouble attracting that big time free agent. A lot of people expected T-Mac to actually go to Chicago, but he turned them down and went to Orlando. And Chicago had to give up some assets in order to get a good player ( at the time ) in Jalen Rose, to try to build the team around.

The difference between us and them, is that when we acquired JJ, we didn't give up guys like a Josh Smith or Josh Childress in the process. But when they acquired Rose, they gave up a Brad Miller and a Ron Artest.

People complain about how our GM mortgaged our future when we gave up Diaw + the 2 1st round draft picks. Imagine if BK would've done what Chicago did, and gave Phoenix three players that they currently had on the roster.

Phoenix right now . . with Josh Smith, Diaw and Josh Childres, would be flat out SCARY right now, with a tremendously deep bench. At least BK kept the assets that he had then, in order to get the player he wanted. Chicago did just the opposite, and eventually saw Brad Miller and Ron Artert turn into 2 very good players for about 3 seasons.

When you look at what the Bulls could've had, the lineup in 01 - 02 season, if they still did the Rose trade, but KEPT Elton Brand, could've looked like this.

C - Curry ( 2001 draft pick )

PF - Brand

F - Artest

G - Jalen Rose

PG - Travis Best

With guys like Brad Miller, Trenton Hassell, Ron Mercer, Jamal Crawford, and a vet like Charles Oakley . . comprising their bench.

So in essence, the Phoenix and Utah situations are NOTHING like ours.

[ATL_BALLER]

Actually, the Braves had one down year, and I think they'll back this season - but that's for a different board.

We need the hoops equivalent of Shuerholz - d@amn, why didn't we pursue Colangelo!?!

[ATL_BALLER]

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So in essence, the Phoenix and Utah situations are NOTHING like ours.

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...which is my point. Those teams never have extended downtime like we do - they rebuild quickly and efficiently at the first signs of decline.

Why didn't Utah fall off the map after Stockton and Malone left? Good coaching - followed by good moves.

Why was Phoenix able to elevate? Shrewd free agent acquistions and draft decisions - including their bold decision to take that "huge gamble" on Amare.