Pro/Anti-Tank: Is there a real side to choose?

[Wretch]

Is there? First, I want to address one of the popular campaign slogans that has been tossed around. “If you want this team to lose, then you aren’t a real fan!”

We’ve got the most laughable franchise in the league. One of the most mismanaged, ill advised, ill fated, clusterf#cks maybe in all of pro sports. We’ve got virtually no history or identity outside of a finger-waving defensive stopper and an underrated, underappreciated, scoring machine.

Yet, we have people who come in here (religiously) to read or even argue about what’s best for this team. We watch the games on TV and some of us (not like myself who lives 100 miles away) even go see them live pretty regularly. We’re all fans of this team, regardless of how we think it should go about the business of getting better. The argument that anyone in here isn’t a true fan of the team really defeats itself.

But to be for or against tanking, is there really a strong position to take?

Personally, I would have rather seen this team spiral out and shoot for a top 3 pick. If for nothing more than to add another trade commodity. I would have been fully behind the “give it all you got!” March Madness were it for two pressing factors:

a. This team has shown nothing consistent outside of consistently being inconsistent. People are clamoring that we can now beat the teams we SHOULD beat; but, we did that during the first 10 or so games of the season (or at least competed). Hell, we’ve even given fits to some of the better teams. Then we drop 5 or 6 in a row.

I love the Hawks, and I’d love to see us make the playoffs...crap that’d be awesome...but I’ve seen us break down far too often for no apparent reason. i.e.:

• The 21pt meltdown to Utah,

• The back to back thrashing by the 23-41 Bobcats

• The SCHOOLING by the Hornet’s 2nd and 3rd stringers

• The countless 3rd and 4th quarter meltdowns after decent 1st half showings against good teams.

So what is this team going to do for the remaining 17 games? Are we beating the teams we should? Will we continue to do that? Can anyone say with 100% confidence that we won’t drop 4 or 5 in a row starting with Boston tonight?

Meh.

b. If we actually had a pick this year, I wouldn’t care. At all. “Give it all you got fellas, if we bottom out and end up with the #7 or #5 pick…or if we sneak into the playoffs, just do what you gotta do.”

But that’s not the case now is it? BK has promised our lottery pick to the title contending Phoenix Suns if we aren’t one of the absolute worst teams in the league. It’s playoffs or bust as it will take some luck and some true sorriness to land a top 3 pick. Thus, we miss our chance to use one “get better” tool given to the worst teams in the league.

But tank? Why?

It is a given that these players are not going to roll over and take it up the arse. Especially not after so many years of being dumped on. These high draft picks that we got all come from winning programs and come with winning attitudes. And they’re pretty good too, much better than the BOTTOM-bottomfeeders. So by virtue of talent alone, with quite a few teams jumbled up at the mid-bottom, and with the remaining schedule, we are looking at a pick 6 – 9 by default.

Unless these players are forced to play like garbage, that is the reality of a tanking effort. Showcasing our assets/resting guys, I’m cool with. Telling players to lose, I’m not. Is that even done in this league?

So, in the end, is there truly a position to take? I would have preferred to spiral out much earlier than now... Just as I would have preferred this kind of effort throughout the year.

Will we make the playoffs or will we get a top 3 pick?

I think the most logical answer is that these guys play hard and we neither make the playoffs nor draft a player that can help us (or give us more trade leverage). In other words, we come into next season in the exact same position.

With Woody and BK doing their same song and dance.

[Packfill]

I think there are valid arguments on both sides. Alot of this stems from the ownership mess. That really buts a big question mark on the teams ability to compete - particularly in terms of bringing in quality free agents and making meaningful trades.

I also think some less then stellar drafting and some terrible coaching are responsible for the team not winning many games.

All that said, the East is so pitiful this year that a team more then 10 games under .500 has a realistic shot at the playoffs. Getting into the playoffs would be great, but I am not sure I can get that excited because the team is still far from being good - even further from being a true championship contender.

As such, I understand and appreciate the tanking argument in that being in position to draft an Oden or Durant is the best way this team can position itself as a championship contender moving forward.

At the same time, there is a bunch of young talent on this team already and it needs to mature. Winning now helps that. Smoove's development in particular is better then I could have hoped for. Making the playoffs this year probably helps build confidence of these young players.

In the long run, however, I think changes need to be made to turn this team into a legit contender. This team desperately needs someone who can create easy scoring chances for others and also desperately needs a big man who can lock down opponents big men (this will be critical in the playoffs).

We shall see. My number one hope for the team is that Woody and BK are sent packing this off-season.

[DJlaysitup]

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...So what is this team going to do for the remaining 17 games? Are we beating the teams we should? Will we continue to do that? Can anyone say with 100% confidence that we won’t drop 4 or 5 in a row starting with Boston tonight? ...

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Nope Wretch...nobody can say that (it's why they play the games).

Seriously though - hate to say this - but JS is gonna run out of gas and have a bad night sooner or later. I'm sure his agent is pumping him up daily, but this dominating streak won't last forever. Tonight would be a logical night for this team to fall flat.

I hope not...and the Celtics are tanking hard for those top picks...and who knows, maybe we can keep it up awhile longer.

Give them darn Suns an eight pick - that'll teach em.

[Wretch]

They get it done. One way or another and they know it going in.

It is true that on any given night any team can beat any other team. But, the teams that have true confidence, they don't go into an arena with the attitude that something is going to happen, and hope for a win.

They go in there and take it. If we went into any of these games with the feeling that our boys were going to "take it", I'd be much more comfortable putting my stock into them making the playoffs. And win or lose, tanking would be the last thing on my mind (as it was before the season started) if at all.

That's just it though, we have no idea what our team is going to do. I'd even go so far as to say, hell...just as you pointed out, tonight would be the night. We'd lose and then we'd say, "aawww, they'll bounce back Saturday. Pacers have been falling lately."

Then we'd go in there and put an end to the Pacer's losing streak.

[DJlaysitup]

Is Pierce back now for the C's ?

This could be an epic tank game. Boston trying it's damndest to lose to get Oden and our guys pooped and giving up (even though we aren't tanking). 66-64 in OT?.

[gutz]

I guess you guys haven't been following the Celtics since Pierce came back but they are far from full tank mode. They have actually been winning games lately and are competitive in just about every one too. When Pierce was out they appeared to be in full tank mode but not anymore. I guess we will find out tonight. Go Hawks!

[Diesel]

If you think the current team is hopeless and you don't mind killing their momentum for a possible shot at getting a top 3 pick... then you should line up with the tankers because that's what the tankers are.

If you see wins as being an important part of team building and team chemistry AND you believe that it's not worth ruining team chemistry and confidence over something that is not guaranteed... You line up with the anti-tankers.

Those are the two sides.

Each Squawker has his or her own beliefs but what it really boils down to is starting over or not.

To the tankers, I have this question:

How do you propose implementing the tank?

I mean JJ is already sitting with a Mysterious injury.

Do you tell J-Smoove (who is the catalyst of our wins)... Hey Buddy... We believe that you and your teammates are not good and shouldn't waste time trying to win. We'd like for you to tone it down and allow the team to lose so that the franchise can go out and get a player that will obviously be better than you all so that we can win in the future. Or do you think that he and the rest or so Dumb that they won't realize that Royal Ivey and Esteban is playing up all the minutes in their place?

[DJlaysitup]

OK - 69-68.

[Diesel]

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Seriously though - hate to say this - but JS is gonna run out of gas and have a bad night sooner or later. I'm sure his agent is pumping him up daily, but this dominating streak won't last forever. Tonight would be a logical night for this team to fall flat.

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You should hate to say that.

But I have worse news for you anti-tankers. Last night while watching the game...Smoove showed something new. He knows how to play in the post! Or at least he has a post move with the left and the right hand!!!!! He was posting up Hunter and some others with ease last night.

As the protanker you are, I guess next you'll be hoping that he gets in----- I can't even say it but I hope you don't... What am I saying the anti-tank machine shook off hernia surgery in 2 weeks instead of 6!!!!

[DJlaysitup]

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...To the tankers, I have this question:

How do you propose implementing the tank?...

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Of course D...I have said before that tanking would be best but we can't. Too many good young players who want to show what they can do now that they are out from under the grand shadow of JJ.

In retrospect, we would have been better off "tank-wise" with JJ still in there getting double and triple teamed in crunch time. If JS could have pulled a muscle we would have had a real chance.

As it stands - since we can't tank - I'm all for winning every game we can.

I'm also realistic and would bet that CBA's prediction comes true...5 or 6 extra wins that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Our "team chemistry" reminds me of the Broncos' old "team chemistry"...theirs was spelled E-L-W-A-Y. Our is spelled S-M-I-T-H.

[exodus]

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Smoove showed something new. He knows how to play in the post!

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I think Amare made a big impression on Josh the last time they played, judging by Smith quotes in the paper. Smith commented on how relentless Amare is attacking the basket. That may have given Josh a push to work harder on his post game.

[macdaddy]

But when do you not tank? If we squeak into the playoffs with 36 wins and lose first round the pro-tankers will say geez what a waste to have made the playoffs.

Basically unless we're sitting atop the conference and dominating other teams pro-tankers would rather lose so we have a chance at some pie-in-the-sky Bill Russell savior as opposed to respect around the league, player confidence, increased fan base(revenue), ability to attract free agents.

[Johnnybravo4]

Even if we got swept, could you imagine what a playoff birth would mean to this town? Both the Hawks and Thrashers? That would be amazing.

[Wretch]

Just as simple though, I submit that both sides make more out of their argument than there really is.

I was in favor of "crash and burn" draft a new savior, if for nothing more than to draft a prospect. But what you've said here is exactly my point - how do you force a team to tank? I thought that our chances at making the playoffs were much lower than getting a top pick and felt that something should be done to secure our draft capital (before now).

Fire Woodson, because he is not a part of our solution. Showcase everybody, put Solomon, Shelden, Chills, Ivey, Salim on the floor. If someone gets hurt, sit them. Whatever. If they win they win, because you can't really tell a pro-athelete to go out there and stink it up.

Is there any tangible method to tanking? Would it actually work? I suppose that's the arguement...that we should not tank and that nothing is guaranteed. Unlike many though, my eyes were not so much on "the savior" as much as they were on SECURING guaranteed capitol in a top 3 pick. At the same time, I've never felt that this team was bad enough to fall that far...so the point stands, is this truly "side" to be chosen? Is there anything that can truly support a "pro-tanking" attitude. It's a bunch of intangibles/probability/and IF's.

Conversely, people put entirely too much stock into the so-called emotional capital and moral victories.

(...)

San Antonio and Dallas don't have more "emotion" than us. Steve Nash and Stoudimire don't average 10.7 moral victories per game. Emotion doesn't lift the ball higher, or force it to fall more accurately.

These teams are talented and have the right players, coaches, and management making it work.

I'll use your signature:

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it's an all time thing. You don't win once in a while, you don't do things right once in a while, you do them right all the time. Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.”

Winners simply win. They have the right talent. They have the right coach. They have the right management and they win. They know how to win. They know what to do. They know who to go to.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

They don't look back and say, "last year, we put together a 5 game win streak at the end of the season. We should beat Detroit tonight."

Or...

"Hey, we beat a surging lottery bound team that beat 8 out of 10 teams so we should win 4 of the next 5 games."

Nope.

Good teams have the tools and they whoop ass.

As a fan, you want the team to win. You cheer for your players who show development and growth. YOU are encouraged by the milestones, but it comes down to the players on the team that have the ability to win.

Confidence plays a role, I'm sure. Though, confidence comes when the shot falls. Yes, after the game a young team says, "wow, we beat them!?" But they go into every game thinking they are going to beat a team until their shot stops falling.

Emotional brownie points, moral victories, etc...is just fluff. As is, can we try to win a probability contest? In the end the truth is, we don't suck bad enough to get the top 3 pick that will add to our capital. As well, these victories mean very little when the first ball is thrown up for us at half court next season.

If they're onto something, then these cats should have figured it out LONG ago. Otherwise, we should have "called it" weeks ago.

[Guest Walter]

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But when do you not tank? If we squeak into the playoffs with 36 wins and lose first round the pro-tankers will say geez what a waste to have made the playoffs.

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I may believe that in the long run it is a waste to make the playoffs this year, but I won't say it. I would expect AT LEAST the same level discourse from the "Bobby Sura contengency" when we don't make the playoffs. Don't tell me we're better off without any significant improvement much less without a top 3 pick next year if we miss the playoffs this year.

W

[Wretch]

Well, for one if we make the playoffs...I will not say that it was a waste. That is an achievement and every Squawker in here will cheer the team on game after game until the final second. It's not an arguemnt of win vs. lose. Who wants their team to lose? If I had my choice between make the playoffs and get a top 3 pick, I'd choose the playoffs...As I did before the season began. As I did before the trade deadline.

Once it became apparent that this team had no idea what IT wanted to do, it made more sense to forget that idea and move forward with securing capital. Pie-in-the-sky savior or no. We couldn't guarantee a win over even the most futile of teams in the league, let alone a serious playoff run.

Respect around the league...

Whether we squeak into the playoffs with a sub-500 record or bottom out from here on in, we are the same team. Either a guy looks at us and thinks we have a nucleus that he will fit with, and we have the money to pay him...or he goes elsewhere.

Our "moral victories" mean nothing in the FA equation, or very little. YES a team, lets say Orlando or Chicago, that shows all year long that they want to be in the playoffs...and maybe makes the playoffs in a few consecutive seasons...maybe a FA looks at them as opposed to us and says, "That's a factor, I want to win with those guys." But a playoff birth, especially in the ridiculously wretched 6-8 seed in the East does not automagically make this team more appealing.

A better coach, stable management, talented players >>> 8 seed. To gain respect, draw FA attention, and to truly build confidence...this team has to come out from DAY ONE and SHOW and PROVE every night win or lose. And there needs to be MUCH more of the former.

Player confidence comes with the shot. If it came down to one game, one play, or even one minute left to go...would Smith or any of these players be irreversably harmed if the ball didn't bounce their way and they missed the dance. It stings, yes. But just as they might get down and think they might not be able to make it, they might just come back hungrier next season.

I would wager that a pro athelete, who has been accustomed to winning his whole life, comes back hungrier thinking, "My team will make the playoffs next year." Hell, we sucked ass for the past 3 seasons and these guys are determined to make it.

The intangibles gained from these moral victories here and there are nice, but anything beyond that is fluff.

All that matters is the W or the L. Teams that win, have the right talent and management in place. They should make the playoffs.

Teams that do not win, have issues and need as much "tangible" help as they can get. That means lottery and in our case this year, it meant getting a top 3 pick (THANKS BK!!!!!!! )

Unfortuneatly, I do not believe that either of these scenarios will play out for us this season. And we will start the season with the exact same team. At which time, I will enthusiastically yell, scream, and throw sh!t in aggravation in support of this team. Just like I did at the start of this season.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Anti-tank is THE ONLY SIDE TO CHOOSE.

#1) WTF are people Pro-Tank when CLEARLY WE AREN'T TANKING. What's the point of all the talk when it's pretty obvious that Josh Smith, Anthony Johnson, and company are playing to win. Mike Woodson is coaching for his job. We aren't doing it so it makes it pointless to talk about.

#2)THe whole theory is retarded because of the lottery system. That system was put into place because of that exact loser mentality. And knowing the luck of this franchise, there aint no way in hell those lottery balls would go our way. We had the worst record in the NBA and the 3rd worst record in the NBA in the last couple of years. Did we get that 1st pick? Hell no! So why would we get it now?

[AHF]

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And knowing the luck of this franchise, there aint no way in hell those lottery balls would go our way. We had the worst record in the NBA and the 3rd worst record in the NBA in the last couple of years. Did we get that 1st pick? Hell no! So why would we get it now?

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Do you really think the past results influence future results in the draft lottery?

[thescout5]

The lottery is the reason the Spurs have been an elite for so long.(Duncan,D Robinson)

The lottery is the reason the Cavs went from an after thought to a respected team with a high profile player(James)

The lottery is the reason Denver is a respected team (carmelo)

The lottery is the reason Orlando went from afterthought to playoff contender ( O'Neal)

I can go on and on it still takes a TEAM EFFORT but that one magical player can make a talented young team into a POWERHOUSE we are that close I feel. The law of averages has to shine on the Hawks some time it hasn't in decades. This is the kind of draft that has big men,point guards why wouldn't you want at least try to go for the gold instead of what may appear now has a Hawks team that probably misses the playoffs,loses there first round pick(Phoenix)and loses there other first rounder(Indiana pick since they are stinking up the joint).The chance to improve in free agency is decent for point guards but again big men are nonexistent. That means the Hawks are going to need to pay big bucks again to a free agent and remember most free agents don't want to play in Atlanta. So how is this team going to improve? If your saying we don't need more talent your crazy even tonight's Boston game shows this team isn't ready. Phoenix,Dallas, San Antonio the upper echelon teams are on another planet from the hawks.

I ask given the above info why wouldn't you want as many ping pong balls going into the lottery you see what it has done for the teams I mentioned above.Durant and Oden are franchise players and can put a good young team on the road to greatness.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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I ask given the above info why wouldn't you want as many ping pong balls going into the lottery you see what it has done for the teams I mentioned above.Durant and Oden are franchise players and can put a good young team on the road to greatness.

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Oden and Durant are the best freshman players in the country. That doesn't mean they are can't miss future HOFers.

We don't even need a can't miss future HOFer. All we need is decent starting material. We have the potential star power at the 2-4 spots.

If we were 10 games out of the playoffs, and that worst record in the league was within our grasp, sure of course I'd be for tanking.

I was angry when the Hawks didn't do poorly down the stretch in 2002. They had nothing to play for. No playoff chances, no young nucleus, no signs of any promise.

But this is different. The playoff spot is well within grasp. We do have a young nucleus that needs all the experience they can get. We have a rising star player that we need to give all the motivation to stay on this team that we can.

If we were to tank and lose Josh Smith, then what?

Then the franchise is set back for another 5 years potentially.

Or if we just are freaking patient and wait one more year where Marvin can have a breakout season like Smoove had this year and where Smoove can have a full season like he's had in the last couple of months, with the return of Joe Johnson, and possibly a bigger, stronger Solomon Jones, we could be a playoff team for sure next season WITHOUT Oden or Durant.

A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.