Does Marvin have any heart?

[Popeye]

Last game he took only 9 shots when we needed someone to score badly. He wasn't agressive on offense and played scared. I just can't believe how a guy that is capable of dominating is too passive and doesn't want to score. If he has any heart in him than he should take over a game when we are down like 23-8 to Indy. If he wants to win so bad than he should sometimes go over the line and not listen Woody.

He isn't emotional enough and doesn't seem to want to be great. I am kinda concerned.

[AtLaS]

No.

He had a losing HS team, he doesn't watch the NBA, he had never even been to an NBA game, he came to his Hawks workout out of shape. Oh and lets not forget he completely CHOKED in UNC's big games... all this we knew BEFORE we drafted him. Add on to that we so needed a PG and we already had Harrington, Donta, Smoove, Childress, AND Diaw. BK is an idiot, how can you expect someone with that bad a resume to become a franchise savior!

The interview from earlier this season was even worse, he said he wasn't focused on doing things that don't go along with the offense (i.e. learning how to drive to the basket). He said, "well we have Joe to create and Smith slashes, leaving me open for jumpers so I'm just trying to knock those down" or somethin to that effect. I don't want to hear that from my "Franchise Savior."

[Guest Walter]

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Last game he took only 9 shots when we needed someone to score badly. He wasn't agressive on offense and played scared. I just can't believe how a guy that is capable of dominating is too passive and doesn't want to score. If he has any heart in him than he should take over a game when we are down like 23-8 to Indy. If he wants to win so bad than he should sometimes go over the line and not listen Woody.

He isn't emotional enough and doesn't seem to want to be great. I am kinda concerned.

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I'm just surprised at this. Having watched MW at UNC for many games at UNC (I live in NC) it surprises me that people didn't already realize this about MW. Frankly I'm shocked. It's like people project positives about what they believe they or anyone would be/do if they were given a similar chance and gifts onto MW and pass it off as if that were him.

MW came NBA tryouts OUT OF SHAPE! He reported he didn't like to watch basketball. His HS team had a losing record. He dropped out of the draft the year before because he was the 5th or 6th best HS prospect and he wasn't going to be drafted very high. No, these aren't sure-fire indictments, but they sure do put the onus on MW proving otherwise, that he really has the intangibles necessary to be great. I never once saw that at UNC. It's not meant to be cruel saying it. I simply never saw greatness there. Not once. In fact, I saw a willingness to blend in rather than take over. Sure, that's acceptable, maybe even desirable if you're picking 20th, but when you're picking #2 (at a position you've already drafted for 3 times in 2 years) you want someone willing to take over.

Why is this a shock to anyone? Trust your gut about a player you've seen enøugh of. Don't buy into the hype. Don't submit to the want to believe when you don't or the GM rhetoric, coach-speak to follow. In the words of David Byrne, MW is "the same as (he) ever was".

W

[thesheedera]

He never choked in a big game at UNC. I watched every game that season and some more than once.

[Guest Walter]

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He never choked in a big game at UNC. I watched every game that season and some more than once.

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UNF-fan much?

I think starting with the NCAA championship game where MW dropped everything coming his way. He was carried by Sean May's phenomenal game. MW was a no show and when he did show it was him missing a pass or a certain rebound. It really was a sorry performance.

W

[thesheedera]

I guess you're referring to the game in which he shot 50% from the field, played the 4th most minutes as a "bench player", was the team's #2 rebounder behind May (who carried the ENTIRE team), was put back in with the game on the line in favor of senior Jawad Williams, and who hit the go-ahead tip in to win the national championship.

He had two turnovers in the game, he was one of 4 Heels players with 2 tos in the game. That's not choking. When we needed him most he scored, and we won the national championship.

I'll take his performance that night any day!!!

He carried the team through the first three rounds, then had rough shooting performances against Wisconsin and Mich St., but the agme is more than shooting. Wisconsin was not a very good game for him, but against Mich St, he was a big part of that win.

The revisionist history on Marvin is ridiculous. If you want to criticise his current play, go for it, but he wasn't a choker in college, and he DID show up in big games.

[thesheedera]

sort of a big game

[Guest Walter]

...and he looked like Hendu "hands of stone" out there. It wasn't so much about TOs as it was dropping balls that hit him squarely in the hands before anyone possessed them. I'm glad getting more minutes but not starting over Jawad Williams is our #2 pick measuring stick. What is Jawad doing right now?

I'm assuming you are still in some way in support of the MW's pick and BK? If you aren't then all you are defending is your own inability to see the truth about a prospect relative to the available franchise Pg prospects. It isn't pretty or working.

W

[Guest Walter]

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sort of a big game

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I heard Felton and May's name at least 6-7 times in that span and MW's 2 times. Once where he missed one of two FT's and the last one when he grabbed a wild rebound on a FT and made a 5' bank shot...and this is MW "showing up"?!?

I mean come on. This is your evidence for drafting MW #2? The guy deferred to his teamates and never took over games. Again acceptable for a 20th pick but not for a #2. In the context of being out of shape and unprepared for his career interview, not liking to watch basketball, leading a HS team with a losign record, and dropping out of the previous draft because he just wasn't that good, this is no defense but rather an admission that MW just wasn't that deserving and had to rely upon the hype of a tip in against Duke.

W

[AHF]

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I'm assuming you are still in some way in support of the MW's pick and BK?

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Why? I don't think he has been arguing that.

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If you aren't then all you are defending is your own inability to see the truth about a prospect relative to the available franchise Pg prospects. It isn't pretty or working.

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I don't think his analysis of Marvin is relative to the available franchise Pg prospects at all here.

Your apparent attempt to turn every thread on Marvin into a comparison of Marvin to Paul/Deron is a little frustrating.

This thread is about whether Marvin demonstrated any heart during his career.

[Packfill]

So far Marvin has not demonstrated that he has the heart to become a franchise enabler along the lines of Garnett, LeBron, Carmelo, etc.

Unless something changes, he will be a decent Rashad Lewis type but not much more.

In my mind Marvin is the embodiment of BK's draft failures. Is it unfair to Marvin? Yes. So be it. When you are the number two pick in the draft coming off of a national championship expectations are high and when you do not live up to them there is going to be lots of criticism.

[AtLaS]

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then had rough shooting performances against Wisconsin and Mich St., but the game is more than shooting.

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Thats exactly right! But the fact is, that Marvin IS ONLY A SHOOTER. What else can he do effectively on the offensive end?? This is a guy who was supposed to dominate, and while I didn't expect him to this early, what has he shown the potential to dominate in offensively other than shooting???

In that interview he acted like he didn't even need to work on posting up or driving to the basket.. When asked about working on his driving to the basket skills, he replied with "Well we have JJ to create and Smith is a slasher, and that leaves me open so I'm just trying to knock those shots down" or somethin, I don't want to hear that from my franchise savior!

And trust me, if it weren't for his teammates, he would have choked. If he was the goto player for that team, UNC would have failed. He was playing scared the whole game, actually the last 3 games.

[Guest Walter]

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I don't think his analysis of Marvin is relative to the available franchise Pg prospects at all here.

Your apparent attempt to turn every thread on Marvin into a comparison of Marvin to Paul/Deron is a little frustrating.

This thread is about whether Marvin demonstrated any heart during his career.

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& MW showing any heart much less enough heart is at the center of his prospects and that's at the center of whether or not it was a defensible draft move. You can't divide the series. One directly relates to the other. Even MW24 said in the opening of the thread:

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He (MW) isn't emotional enough and doesn't seem to want to be great. I am kinda concerned.

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That isn't about his lack of heart alone, but about how his lack of heart impacts the likelihood that he will reach his potential and/or become great. One step futher and MW24 is even questioning the draft move. Imagine that from a guy with "MW24" as his username.

W

[PlayaPat420]

now if he had come in like kobe, shooting 20 times a game, people would complain. give him a break, he is only 20 years old. for him to defer to joe and josh isn't a bad thing because he is still finding his place in the league and on this team. and who labeled him the franchise savior? him being picked #2? i thought joe was the supposed "savior"

[ATL_BALLER]

...have Marvin in the 1-2 spots on their board? They're paid to be subjective - what did they miss that your amateur eyes did not?

I absolutely agree that the Hawks should've taken Deron or Chris, based on the scarcity of studs at the position and the fact that Marvin was redundant with our roster.

However, the concensus among scouts is that he would be the best player from this draft within 5 years. He has shown improvement this season, and occasional fire. Why are you so sure he's a bust?

[Guest Walter]

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now if he had come in like kobe, shooting 20 times a game, people would complain. give him a break, he is only 20 years old. for him to defer to joe and josh isn't a bad thing because he is still finding his place in the league and on this team. and who labeled him the franchise savior? him being picked #2? i thought joe was the supposed "savior"

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...something! There was no franchise savior in that draft, but Paul and Deron would have been the closest thing to it for us. They both make everybody around them better. When has MW made anyone around him better? Almost all the guy does is shoot mid-range. Seriously. There is so little all-around to his game it's disheartening to watch IMO.

MW needs to "find his place" while seriously developing himself. His body looks the same to me as it did when he was a prospect out of HS and he's turning into if he wasn't already primarily a one trick pony.

W

[AtLaS]

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give him a break, he is only 20 years old.

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Please answer this question that I asked in my post.

"This is a guy who was supposed to dominate, and while I didn't expect him to this early, what has he shown the potential to dominate in offensively other than shooting?"

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and who labeled him the franchise savior? him being picked #2? i thought joe was the supposed "savior"

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We did not have JJ when we drafted Marvin.

When you use the highest draft pick in the history of the franchise to draft a player at a position that you spent a #6 and a #17 on the YEAR BEFORE, AND we had Al Harrington and Boris Diaw (who was a 1st round SF 2 years before), then he is meant to be a savior. Especially considering our dire need of a PG and we passed 3 of them to get Marvin because he had the "Most potential to be a star." That's called drafting someone to be a star/savior.

[Guest Walter]

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...have Marvin in the 1-2 spots on their board? They're paid to be subjective - what did they miss that your amateur eyes did not?

However, the concensus among scouts is that he would be the best player from this draft within 5 years. He has shown improvement this season, and occasional fire. Why are you so sure he's a bust?

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I think the sports reporters missed alot, but most importantly, they weren't drafting for our team. We had Diaw, JS, and JC at Sf. Unless MW was a sure-thing, SIGNIFICANTLY better than all 3 prospect he had no business being picked (and kept) by us. None.

I døn't think almost every legit scout or analyst would tell you the truth about who they had where on their draft board. I believe the UNC-hype glossed over a V-E-R-Y flawed prospect, that same sheen got printed in alot of newspapers by Joe Sports-Writer and passed off as fact and knowledge, there were 3 franchise Pgs, not 1, meaning no single Pg stood out of the remaining 3 similar to greater talents, no one was considering our team needs in this so called analysis, and regardless, it's BK's job to look past the smoke and mirrors and find the best. Yes, I saw past it and so did many others. Many who did see past it still sided with BK decision out fo some strange sense of loyalty or faith-based GMing. Still, it was there for all to see. Sorry you and Joe Sports-writer missed it.

Anyhow, it simply didn't matter. Just like SW didn't even try out for us and we didn't try out the top prospects this past year, we might as well had not done so the year prior. MW came in out of shape and Paul had his best workout for us and begged to come here. It didn't matter! BK was too far up the 6'8" long, athletic bung-hole he made for himself and had bought into the hype to much to care about a silly little workout or either player's relative desire (one out of shape...the other begging to play for us) or all the other facts against MW and for Paul or Deron.

W

[AtLaS]

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...have Marvin in the 1-2 spots on their board? They're paid to be subjective - what did they miss that your amateur eyes did not?

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Actually the scouts weren't that far off. If you go back and read the "weaknesses" of Marvin from his draft report, you will see that there were a LOT of deficiency's to his game, and they are STILL THE EXACT SAME. Check this out..

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http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=59#

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Offensively, Marvin has only shown that he can score in

one of four ways :

open and stand still jumpshots, lay-ups/dunks and on fast breaks, put-backs and free throws.

Marvin hasn't shown he has the ability to put the ball on the floor and create his own shot consistently

, whether it's driving around a defender to get all the way to the rim or merely shooting off the dribble. If Marvin is going to be a great small forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game. Also,

Marvin has shown no post moves

outside of trying to overpower his opponents with a drop-step toward the basket. When

surrounded by defenders in the paint Marvin often gets his shot blocked

because he has yet to show a jump hook, a fadeaway or an up-and-under move. In fact, Marvin's best offensive move in the paint is trying to get to the free throw line. He will not be able to draw fouls easily against more experienced defenders. If Marvin is going to be a great power forward in the NBA he will need to develop this part of his game

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Look at the bolded parts, sound familiar??

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Why are you so sure he's a bust?

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Not saying he's a bust, but it's more likely he becomes a bust than worthy of his high draft status.

This is why, and I'm quoting what I wrote in the top of the thread.

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He had a losing HS team, he doesn't watch the NBA, he had never even been to an NBA game, he came to his Hawks workout out of shape. Oh and lets not forget he completely CHOKED in UNC's big games... all this we knew BEFORE we drafted him. Add on to that we so needed a PG and we already had Harrington, Donta, Smoove, Childress, AND Diaw. BK is an idiot, how can you expect someone with that bad a resume to become a franchise savior!

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That's rough, and BK knew this BEFORE he drafted him.

[ATL_BALLER]

Yes - and reading the positives in his profile, coupled with the flashes I think we've all seen (sans Walter), says I'm not ready to give up on the guy.

We should have taken Deron or Chris. But as has been said here a million times before, the blame lies with BK, not Marvin. And since the reality is that he is what we have, I'd like to give him the chance to blossom in season 3, ala Smoove. With his athleticism, sweet stroke and good attitude, I certainly think he could blow up.

By the way, I missed where it said he was out of shape for his workout. I remember reading that he was a "beast." Where's your source, AtLaS?