Does Marvin have any heart?

[AtLaS]

But the negatives are still the EXACT same! He still can't create, post up, dribble, nothing. He was drafted to be a dominant offensive player, and the only potential he's shown is a good looking shot.

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By the way, I missed where it said he was out of shape for his workout. I remember reading that he was a "beast." Where's your source, AtLaS?

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It was reported by BK and I think Woodson in an interview after Marvin worked out with the Hawks. Ask other posters, they'll remember it. I know Walter remembers it. I know I remember it.

[thesheedera]

I think I was prety f-ing specific about what I was arguing, so I'd appreciate it if you no longer put arguments into my mouth.

A post said Marvin was a choker. I defended Marvin because I know by watching him all season, including postseason and "big" games, he was a huge factor in winning those games.

It's pretty obvious by now that he wasn't the best choice at #2. Nothing I posted had anything to do with where he was drafted, just whether or not he was a choker.

As a college player he always played with heart. He doesn't do it as much now, which bothers and concerns me as a fan, but it doesn't change the fact that he played with a passion in college.

[AtLaS]

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By the way, I missed where it said he was out of shape for his workout. I remember reading that he was a "beast." Where's your source, AtLaS?

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This is the best thing I could find, but this is NOT the original quote that we all saw.

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Hawks.com: Was it different preparing for this year’s league than last year?

MW: Oh definitely. Your rookie summer is the worst. You come off your college season, fly all over the place getting ready for the draft,

it’s hard to stay in shape

, then you have to come in and learn new terminology, new plays, plus get used to a game that goes much faster than what you have been used to. That’s why your first summer is so difficult.

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http://www.nba.com/hawks/feature/Q_A_With_...ams_073106.html

[Diesel]

Also, it was said that he was out of shape for the Milwaukee workout too.

I mean, when you do two workouts and you're breathing hard on both...

MARVIN WILLIAMS' WORKOUT HIGHLIGHTS

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, The, Jun 20, 2005 by CHARLES F. GARDNER

-- Williams seemed tired at times during the 45-minute workout and stopped twice to be stretched by Bucks strength and conditioning coach Tim Wilson. At one point, after Williams shot a free throw, Bucks assistant Bob Ociepka asked him, "Are you all right?" Williams nodded in the affirmative.

-- Williams struggled with his perimeter shot early in the workout, but eventually began hitting shots consistently. He showed smooth post moves and hit eight of nine midrange shots off a pop- and-catch drill and while shooting after one dribble. "My legs got a little tired early," Williams said. "But I thought halfway through the workout, my jumper started to come along a little bit more."

-- The North Carolina freshman vividly demonstrated his explosiveness to the hoop, powering down a two-handed dunk midway through the workout. "That's a good finish," understated Ociepka, who was running the drills. Ociepka's comment drew laughter from the courtside table featuring Bucks owner Herb Kohl, general manager Larry Harris, coach Terry Porter and director of player personnel Dave Babcock.

-- Bucks assistant Mike Sanders provided a bit of opposition for Williams, offering a look at the 19-year-old's defensive footwork. Sanders hit one jumper and later tried a hook shot from the lane but missed. "It feels like my Saturday morning shot," Sanders said with a laugh.

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-- Williams tapped his left arm every time he shot a free throw. "My mother's name (Andrea) is tattooed on my arm," he said. "I do it for my mother when I'm going to the free-throw line."

-- Williams wore his Carolina blue sneakers, a gray Bucks T- shirt and blue shorts for his Bucks audition.

-- Williams took a series of shots from the left side to end the workout, and he drained his last NBA three-pointer. "What you got to see is a guy with a lot of talent, a lot of up side," Harris said. "In a 1 on 0 workout, sometimes it's hard to judge what a guy can really do. I'm very excited about the way he shot the ball, his form on it."

Charles F. Gardner

[Traceman]

I haven't posted for a while but I see that Marvin is still a subject of much concern for many on the board. I guess I just don't know what everyone was expecting from him at 20 years old.

I still see a very talented young guy who is very skilled and who clearly understands the game very well but who doesn't always focus at the level he needs to and who doesn't always play as hard as he needs to. Like most young guys, he focuses in spurts and he plays hard in spurts. That said, the dude is only 20 and he is averaging a solid 12.7 ppg, 4.7 rpg and 1.9 apg. He is the LEAST of our problems. It is not his fault that BK should have taken Paul or Deron. Marvin is still going to be a very good player.

I think it is quite likely that Marvin will average 17/6

next year as the 3rd option behind JJ and Smoove and it is not inconceivable to me that he will be the 2nd option behind JJ. Not bad for a 21 year old and he will only get better after that.

[thesheedera]

So he gets tired during a workout, and what exactly does that prove? Does that prove that he was lazy? Is it possible to prepare for something like that and still get tired or have your muscles tighten up on you?

Does this mean he doesn't care about basketball?

I've felt from the day these stories were printed that they were pretty overblown. Its not like he showed up eating cheetos and couldn't complete the workouts. He needed a rest and a stretch, he didn't walk out of the gym and go home.

It's amazing how much some people can pull out of a story like this.

[PlayaPat420]

that might but what YOU expected but i didn't hear him called the SAVIOR once. and just because he is the highest pick we ever had still doesn't make him our savior. by the way, all stars aren't savior's either. because i believe KG, JO, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, etc. are stars but I doubt any of them are saviors to their franchise. these closest being KG but even he hasn't won a championship, so savior, no. but ok, i will answer your question with another since thats the thing to do. what is wrong with being a dominate shooter? and also, what 20 year old is dominate in ANY PART of the game? Lebron? No. He is a dominate player but he disappears as well. This isn't even comparing Marvin to LeBron though. He may not be dominate but when drafted, he wasn't suppose to be. No matter where he was selected, he was viewed as the best player in the draft eventually not immediately. If you have a beef, it should be with management for taking a project at such a high pick. As for Marvin, he is doing exactly what the scouts and everyone said, developing NOT finished.

I REPEAT: Give him a break and get real with yourself. He didn't say any of these things about himself... Only scouts, management and fans. It is fans own fault for expecting Jordan, LeBron, etc.

[Sothron]

I honestly have never seen anything from Marvin both at UNC and in Atlanta that makes me think he's even good enough to start in the NBA let alone be some kind of franchise player. He is very timid on offense and settles for jump shots if he even takes a shot. His ability to disappear for long stretches at a time reminds me more of how Dennis Scott would act if he wasn't getting the ball alot in an offensive possession. He'd just drift along on offense. Marvin might be the same way, maybe he needs to be included more on offense to get him mentally into the games.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

PlayaPat, these guys are hilarious. They're mad at Marvin because he wants to be a TEAM PLAYER, and not some primadonna ball hog that takes all the shots.

They want him to do like Kobe did in his rookie year, where he thought he was the man and had the green light to take every bad shot possible.

What people don't realize, is that most #2 picks come into this league with the opportunity to be "the man" right away. Most #2 picks don't come to a team with a potential all-star player ( JJ ) and a very good offensive player ( Harrington ) already in the lineup.

Chris Paul came into a situation where he was almost instantly the best player on the team, and had to shoulder a burden offensively. Deron came into a situation where he was instantly the best PG on the squad, and would get a chance to play major minutes from the jump.

Marvin came into a situation where you already had 2 main scoring options, in addition to 2 other forwards that was ahead of him on the learning curve that we were also trying to develop ( Smoove and Chill ).

This year is really Marvin's first opportunity to make an impact on this team, and even that was delayed by 19 games at the beginning of the season.

But the people all over Marvin will say that these are just "excuses" instead of realizing that these are FACTS.

LOL . . this is what the kid is averaging in March.

13.8 ppg

4.1 rebs

45% FG

91% FT ( which is incredible )

He's become one of the most consistent players on this team, yet, these idiots constantly come at Marvin, because he doesn't "want" to be a star? LOL . . that ish is hilarious to me.

Meanwhile, while we were winning 4 straight without JJ, you didn't hear a PEEP out of these clowns about Marvin's play. Not ONE WORD. Marvin had 17 points and 8 boards in the Boston loss, yet, people act like he should've had 27 and 12.

And LOL @ the notion that because Marvin "supposedly" doesn't watch or isn't passionate about basketball off the court, that it somehow effects his play on the court and his desire to be great. Tell that ish to Karl Malone, who has said plenty of times that he NEVER watched basketball or other people, unless he was actually playing in the game or watching his daughter play.

If JJ is going to be the star, and Smoove is going to be the 2nd guy, Marvin is going to turn out to be a very good #3 guys for us. Let the kid develop his game and stop expecting ish to just magically happen overnight. It took 2.5 seasons for us to see the potential in Smoove. It took 2.25 seasons to see Chill turn into a consistent player. But Marvin is supposed to be a star overnight, just because he's the #2 pick, but the #3 option AT BEST on the team?

LOL @ that logic. Lay off the kid. He's doing exactly what he's being told to do. And he's becoming a very consistent player.

[Popeye]

You are right, but what i want to see from Marvin is to score like 30+ in at least one game before the season like someone else mentioned. That way we will at least know that he can take over and dominate. He has been consistent lately, scoring in double figures in like 10-15 straight games. But when your team is down by 15 in first quarter and nobody is really playing well than you should try to make something happen. I critizes him only because i know that he can bring us back in the game and can take over if he wants. I am not saying that he sucks and will never be good. If he is not good than i wouldn't even expect him to be great. Same thing with Smoove at the begining of the year when i was pissed of at him all the time. I never wanted to trade him though, i am just saying that he can be good if he takes it upon himself.

I think with a new coach Marvin and Shelden would benefit the most though.

[thesheedera]

I think any fan would love to see a 30 point outburst from him, but just because we haven't seen one yet doesn't mean anything in and of itself.

In my personal opinion Marvin hasn't been a disappointment. I didn't expect more than what I'm seeing. I actually see a more polished offensive player than I expected, but a less aggressive rebounder than I expected, so it's a wash in my mind.

The problem is that Paul and Deron (and Felton, though he's getting screwed by Bernie playing him out of position so often) have so quickly been so much better than I (and almost everyone) thought they would be, that it makes the Marvin choice look so bad in retrospect.

In his first season all of his numbers improved month by month. This season he's had staggered improvement with a few dips, but the month by month still continues for the most part.

Look at the big picture, folks. He is coming along. He and Bogut were the HANDS DOWN favorites for the #1 and 2 spots. It wasn't even a question, except for a period where we didn't know who the Bucks would take #1. Billy made the pick, IT WAS THE WRONG PICK!!!!!! EVERYONE KNOWS IT!!!!!!!!!

But that doesn't mean that Marvin can no longer realize his huge potential.

So many Hawks fans are so upset that we don't have Paul that they attack Marvin more than is deserved. It's really pretty pathetic.

[Admin]

Welcome back Trace. I agree that Marvin will be fine. He is a 20 year old kid, what do some of you want? The guy wasn't brought up as a basketball prodigy who only thought about playing in the NBA his whole life. He is probably still intimidated by guys like JJ and Smoove because they are closer to being superstars (both JJ and Smoove) and are more outspoken and aggressive (Smoove at least) than he is at this point and that probably keeps him from trying to take over when he probably should. It's got to be hard to have a team full of players who at some point in their lives and for probably most of their lives they were the dominant player for their team and to come here is a big change for them. I have no doubt that Marvin will at some point become a breakout player but he might never be anything more than a Rashard Lewis type, which while it would be disappointing considering passing up Paul and Deron and Marvin's lofty expectations, isn't the end of the world when you pair that with 2 guys who are already at superstar status in Smoove and JJ.

I think that the biggest problem we have is coaching now. I like Woody a lot but and I think he is a great mentor, but I don't think he knows how to get the most out of our kids. I think this offseason we will see a change at the position and next year there will be a focus on being more aggressive and getting out and running. The new coach won't feel a personal sense of attachment to guys like Marvin and Smoove and will push them to the max.

[AHF]

Marvin isn't the Hawks highest pick ever for those who are thinking it is.

We had the #1 overall pick the year Bill Russell came out (we traded it). We also had the #1 overall pick and drafted Michael Thompson out of NC State. The ultra-talented coke-head jumped to the ABA for more money instead of signing with the NBA. Thompson, Dr. J and others stared together in the ABA until he came into the NBA via Denver.

[Packfill]

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Welcome back Trace. I agree that Marvin will be fine. He is a 20 year old kid, what do some of you want? The guy wasn't brought up as a basketball prodigy who only thought about playing in the NBA his whole life. He is probably still intimidated by guys like JJ and Smoove because they are closer to being superstars (both JJ and Smoove) and are more outspoken and aggressive (Smoove at least) than he is at this point and that probably keeps him from trying to take over when he probably should. It's got to be hard to have a team full of players who at some point in their lives and for probably most of their lives they were the dominant player for their team and to come here is a big change for them. I have no doubt that Marvin will at some point become a breakout player but he might never be anything more than a Rashard Lewis type, which while it would be disappointing considering passing up Paul and Deron and Marvin's lofty expectations, isn't the end of the world when you pair that with 2 guys who are already at superstar status in Smoove and JJ.

I think that the biggest problem we have is coaching now. I like Woody a lot but and I think he is a great mentor, but I don't think he knows how to get the most out of our kids. I think this offseason we will see a change at the position and next year there will be a focus on being more aggressive and getting out and running. The new coach won't feel a personal sense of attachment to guys like Marvin and Smoove and will push them to the max.

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Smoove is not a superstar yet, not even close. He certaintly has the potential, but his game has too many holes currently and he is too inconsistent to be considered a superstar as of today. He is young and he seems to have the drive so I am not worried about him.

[Admin]

You are right, Smoove isn't a superstar currently. I guess I should have said that in his mind or in the way that he plays the game with that air of superstarness to him it might make him seem like a superstar to a player like Marvin who is more passive by nature.

Smoove will at some point be considered a superstar though simply because of the variety of ways he can change a game and all he really needs to work on his consistency.

[Packfill]

Like everyone else here, I can't wait to see what Smoove becomes and see how his game matures. He is one of the few bright spots for this franchise.

[AtLaS]

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With Marvin, I actually see a more polished offensive player than I expected, but a less aggressive rebounder than I expected, so it's a wash in my mind.

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More polished? What about Marvin's offensive game is "more polished" than you expected? Right now he is a shooter only, is he a more polished shooter than you originally thought?

[AtLaS]

Please tell me something that Marvin has improved upon (offensively) from last year to this year. If he was given the minutes last year, he could have averaged 12.7 a game also. That's because all he does is take open midrange jumpers.

Again, please name something that Marvin has improved upon offensively from last year to this year.

I did not expect Marvin to dominate this early, but I expected to see the potential to do so, and frankly all I've seen is good form on his jumper. His weaknesses before the draft are still the exact same today as they were 2 years ago.

[Guest Walter]

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I think I was prety f-ing specific about what I was arguing, so I'd appreciate it if you no longer put arguments into my mouth.

A post said Marvin was a choker.

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Speaking of putting arguments into people's mouths. Who said MW's was a choker? He doesn't step up in big games is different because he generally doesn't step up at all. I think playing like a role player is more his nature than ever taking over a game. Neither have to do with choking. He just isn't the type of guy that steps up big. It's not like he usually does and then a big game comes around and he doesn't. That's choking. MW isn't good enough to be a choker yet.

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I defended Marvin because I know by watching him all season, including postseason and "big" games, he was a huge factor in winning those games.

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So was Jawad Williams but you didn't see us drafting Jawad 2nd.

I watched almost as much UNC basketball and I am neither a UNC fan or anti-fan. Also the year before I was a BIG fan of the idea of MW with our 2nd, 1st rd pick before he pulled out of the draft. I liked the guy enough to recommend it early on. So it's not like I disliked the guy's game or having anything for or against UNC. In fact, my critique of MW and BK's selection of him #2 has been on point and it isn't about to be wrong now because of a tip in I saw and was aware of, but was one of the few standout positives for MW that season.

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It's pretty obvious by now that he wasn't the best choice at #2. Nothing I posted had anything to do with where he was drafted, just whether or not he was a choker.

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Whether it's intangibles, talent, or skill, something makes MW not step up. Call it whatever name you want, I know it as heart or hunger, both of which he lacks to be great at this level. Talent-wise I also think he's lacking as he is just so one-dimensional, but it's his heart that's holding him back the most IMO.

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As a college player he always played with heart. He doesn't do it as much now, which bothers and concerns me as a fan, but it doesn't change the fact that he played with a passion in college.

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I didn't see it. It's major college, ACC ball of course, but he didn't have much individual fire in him.

I'll point one other thing out to you. I haven't seen MW's body change much since the HS All-american game. Same body then as now. Soft. Not only does he come to the biggest job interview of his life with his shirt untucked (OUT OF SHAPE!), not only does he not work on his game prefering to fit in on the team per his own words...he doesn't work hard enough on his body. RED FLAGS people, red flags.

W

[thesheedera]

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The answer is simple.. [Re: MW24]

#203909 - 03/19/07 01:36 AM Edit Reply Quote

No.

He had a losing HS team, he doesn't watch the NBA, he had never even been to an NBA game, he came to his Hawks workout out of shape. Oh and lets not forget he completely CHOKED in UNC's big games... all this we knew BEFORE we drafted him. Add on to that we so needed a PG and we already had Harrington, Donta, Smoove, Childress, AND Diaw. BK is an idiot, how can you expect someone with that bad a resume to become a franchise savior!

The interview from earlier this season was even worse, he said he wasn't focused on doing things that don't go along with the offense (i.e. learning how to drive to the basket). He said, "well we have Joe to create and Smith slashes, leaving me open for jumpers so I'm just trying to knock those down" or somethin to that effect. I don't want to hear that from my "Franchise Savior."

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I was never addressing you. I was addressing this post, regarding Marvin "choking".

Hope you enjoyed putting together that post.