Smoove is no 4!!!!!!!!!!

[Diesel]

We run a 3 Forward set and we call Smoove a 4. Mainly because Smoove is the only one who can matchup with 4's on defense. You play the position that you defend the best. The problem with that is that Smoove easily gives up defensive position to lesser offensive players and make them look like world beaters.

Let's mention a few names here and see if you remember:

Haslem?

Troy Murphy?

Al Jefferson?

Smoove doesn't know how to defend the post.

Offensively, Smoove is evolving. He's learning how to post up, but his main game right now is drive and set shot. He's not good scoring off the drive (but he has a lot of potential).. and he can score on the set shot as long as he doesn't take too many long distance shots. His main thing is shooting in the midrange. That offense is more the offense of a Sf than a Pf. The other part of his evolution is that he can dribble and create holes in the defense. Again, more Sf than PF.

Somebody said if we had Chris Paul, he'd still play PF.. I seriously doubt that. Mainly because if we had Paul, then our other PFs would be more effective because we'd have a PG who could get them the ball in their spots, in the low post. Smoove can score in the low post, but I don't think he likes the low post.

Again, you're talking about a guy who modelled his game after AK-47 and Shawn Marion. Sure those guys can play PF if they are asked to, but naturally those guys are Sfs. So is Smoove.

[TroyMcClure]

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On defense, Smoove got worked repeatedly by Haslem. I'm sorry but 8 boards a game and not being able to handle Udonis Haslem, is not what you're big man needs to be.

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Haslem had 10 points and 7 rebounds. Have you ever seen Smith guard a quick SF?? Obviously not or you wouldn't have made that statement.

Smoove was being put in trade scenarios, and getting bashed DAILY when he was playing SF earlier this year. He is not quick enough to beat SF's off the dribble. It's the same on defense, he can't keep up with SF's. Also, when playing PF, it allows him to come helpside with blocks a lot easier without leaving his man as far behind. Coincidence he's averaging more blocks now than he ever has in his career?

I think not.

Smith is averaging about 9 rebounds/game since moving to PF. Why is he putting up the best numbers of his life at PF? What's the difference between Josh and Kenyon Martin in Jersey playing PF? Josh is the better shot-blocker, shooter, passer, on top of everything that Martin was in Jersey.

The FACTS are that Smith has never played as well playing SF as he has playing PF, and the stats prove that. Smith played SF for 2 1/2 years, as soon as he transitioned to PF he blew up. Coincidence?? I think not.

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The FACTS Atlas, are that he does not play PF. He never does. If you want to call him a 4 while he stands on the wing and drives all night, fine. I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket. We ran 4 guards all night last night. 1 in the post, 4 on the wing. That is not a PF. You can throw numbers at me all day long, but I play the game. Smoove does not play PF. Period. He doesn't. He plays like a SF without a coach. Until you acknowledge that a PF has to spend the majority of his time on the block, there is no argument. He's not a PF if he's not being "powerful".

What's wrong in the world? Me and Diesel on the same team? What?

[HawkNJersey]

Diesel, you're a great poster....

But why are you refering to Smoove being outworked by Haslem? Did I miss something last night? I may have blinked too long once or twice

[Diesel]

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What's wrong in the world? Me and Diesel on the same team? What?

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Welcome to basketball 411 and being right!!

[Diesel]

Maybe you was watching Doleac outwork Zaza or Lo keep Shaq at bay in the 4th and then you blinked, but even though Miami didn't exploit it a lot (why would you need to when you have the layup drill going) but anytime Haslem wanted to score, he could easily get position on Smoove. My reference is of the fact that Smoove often gives up Posting position. I don't think Smoove is doomed, I just think that it's a part of his game that is missing. If you put the two side by side, Shelden is a much better positional defender than Smoove. It may take us sending Smoove to a big man camp for the next few years if you want him to really be a PF. I would also try to get Smoove some time with Clifford Ray.. Hell all of our big men.

[TroyMcClure]

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Maybe you was watching Doleac outwork Zaza or Lo keep Shaq at bay in the 4th and then you blinked, but even though Miami didn't exploit it a lot (why would you need to when you have the layup drill going) but anytime Haslem wanted to score, he could easily get position on Smoove. My reference is of the fact that Smoove often gives up Posting position. I don't think Smoove is doomed, I just think that it's a part of his game that is missing. If you put the two side by side, Shelden is a much better positional defender than Smoove. It may take us sending Smoove to a big man camp for the next few years if you want him to really be a PF. I would also try to get Smoove some time with Clifford Ray.. Hell all of our big men.

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You took the words right out of my mouth!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Smoove just has to work on that aspect of his game defensively. He'll get stronger and become more savvy on how to play true PFs. But it takes "heart" to want to be a good defender. Smoove has to translate that same passion he has on offense, and put it to use on defense . . and not just from a shot blocking standpoint.

But as to the point that Smoove isn't a 4 . . you could say these guys aren't 4's either:

Dirk Nowitzki

Lamar Odom

Shawn Marion

But all are pretty effective when they play the 4 spot. Maybe by early as next year, Smoove could be better than Odom, and possibly better than Marion.

Using Smoove offensively at the 4 works better for this team, than using him at the 3. Defensively, it works better too, because Smoove has worse ball defense on good 3's, than he does on good 4's. So playing him at the 4 is what is best for this team. And his numbers on both ends prove this.

[HawkNJersey]

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Maybe you was watching Doleac outwork Zaza or Lo keep Shaq at bay in the 4th and then you blinked, but even though Miami didn't exploit it a lot (why would you need to when you have the layup drill going) but anytime Haslem wanted to score, he could easily get position on Smoove. My reference is of the fact that Smoove often gives up Posting position. I don't think Smoove is doomed, I just think that it's a part of his game that is missing. If you put the two side by side, Shelden is a much better positional defender than Smoove. It may take us sending Smoove to a big man camp for the next few years if you want him to really be a PF. I would also try to get Smoove some time with Clifford Ray.. Hell all of our big men.

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Ok fair enough...but again you said Haslem had his way...with 10pts? 5 for 10 shooting? I saw the game. Haslem made an impact with hustle and drawing charges, not offensively. Its ok if you have a point to express, but you don't have to go overboard to validate it. He does have things to work on. We all know that. Smoove's biggest problem, both offensively and defensively is trying to do everybody elses job. But who's fault is this really? Is it his fault he is both the best SF and PF on the team? He's the 4, only because he defends it. We can all agree on something...It's time for this franchise to make a decision. If Smoove is your 4 of the future, send him to the big man camps you suggested. If not, its time to clear out some bodies.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Maybe you was watching Doleac outwork Zaza or Lo keep Shaq at bay in the 4th and then you blinked, but even though Miami didn't exploit it a lot (why would you need to when you have the layup drill going) but anytime Haslem wanted to score, he could easily get position on Smoove. My reference is of the fact that Smoove often gives up Posting position. I don't think Smoove is doomed, I just think that it's a part of his game that is missing. If you put the two side by side, Shelden is a much better positional defender than Smoove. It may take us sending Smoove to a big man camp for the next few years if you want him to really be a PF. I would also try to get Smoove some time with Clifford Ray.. Hell all of our big men.

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Ok fair enough...but again you said Haslem had his way...with 10pts? 5 for 10 shooting? I saw the game. Haslem made an impact with hustle and drawing charges, not offensively. Its ok if you have a point to express, but you don't have to go overboard to validate it. He does have things to work on. We all know that. Smoove's biggest problem, both offensively and defensively is trying to do everybody elses job. But who's fault is this really? Is it his fault he is both the best SF and PF on the team? He's the 4, only because he defends it. We can all agree on something...It's time for this franchise to make a decision. If Smoove is your 4 of the future, send him to the big man camps you suggested. If not, its time to clear out some bodies.

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What? Someone exaggerated on the board, in order to prove their point? Noooooooooooo. Not on this board . . LOL.

Good post HnJ.

And yes, Smoove should go to a big man's camp, and develop at least one "go-to" post move, and learn how to play position defense better.

But like I said in my previous post. Dirk, Lamar, and Shawn aren't true 4's either. Yet, they play the position very well, especially on the offensive end.

LOL @ Smoove isn't a 4. Well how many SF's have you ever seen average 20 ppg . . 9 rebs . . and over 3 blocks for the month?

The only one who I can think of, who puts up those numbers from the combo 3/4 position like Smoove plays . . is Shawn Marion. Nice to see the kid playing like him, with even better offensive skills.

[Diesel]

I think we're missing an opportunity to mature other positions such as Pf by playing Smoove out of position. I believe in both Solomon and Shelden. I just think that they are not allowed much opportunity to play their game because Smoove is playing 4... And he's not a 4.

[TroyMcClure]

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I think we're missing an opportunity to mature other positions such as Pf by playing Smoove out of position. I believe in both Solomon and Shelden. I just think that they are not allowed much opportunity to play their game because Smoove is playing 4... And he's not a 4.

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I don't know if you saw it D, but Shelden cleared open the paint for an entry pass and threw it down! I mean threw it down with authority. Then he snatched a board the next play on D. He was pulled immediately at the next dead ball just to put Smoove in. Why can't they play together?

[AtLaS]

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The

FACTS

Atlas, are that he does not play PF. He never does. If you want to call him a 4 while he stands on the wing and drives all night, fine.

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How many times to I have to say this? Smoove can't beat SFs off the dribble with the effectiveness that he beats PFs off the dribble! You won't see the same Josh Smith if he is moved back to SF!

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I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket.

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What does this even mean? You obviously don't know much about basketball, the PF does NOT always just stand under the basket, even 50% of the time. And Josh Smith HAS shown post moves lately, despite your failure to acknowledge it. There is also a center on the team who spends the majority of his time in the paint, you can't just stand 2 people in the paint. Look at Shelden when he comes in, he stands around setting screens on the outside and takes jumpshots, you saying he's a SF too?

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That is not a PF. You can throw numbers at me all day long, but I play the game. Smoove does not play PF. Period. He doesn't.

He plays like a SF without a coach.

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It doesn't matter what he plays "like", it matters what he is. If that were the case, Dirk Nowitzki would play the SG position.

The FACTS are, that Smith was in trade proposals playing SF this year and was nowhere near as productive the previous 2 years at SF. Yet now he's putting up the best numbers of his life at the PF position and there are all these people trying to move him back.. lunacy.

[TroyMcClure]

I know a good bit about basketball Atlas. I suggest you lay off of your assumptions. You are making your whole argument on the "Smoove can't hang with 3's" thing. You are disregarding the way he actually plays basketball. I'm a little older than you and a traditionalist. If Smoove is going to play the 4 with a soft as linen center(Zaza), he has to post up. Zaza can't. Shelden can. Do you not get that? Can we meet in the middle here? Smoove can play your type of 4. But only if we have a center that has size and can bang. We don't have that. So what is your plan? Things should stay the same?

[AtLaS]

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You are making your whole argument on the "Smoove can't hang with 3's" thing. You are disregarding the way he actually plays basketball.

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So in other words, you believe Dirk should be an SG? Although he can't hang with 2's, he plays like one. That is the point you are making and it's not true.

It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is.

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I'm a little older than you and a traditionalist. If Smoove is going to play the 4 with a soft as linen center(Zaza), he has to post up. Zaza can't. Shelden can.

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Smoove has improved in posting up, he's already at least as good or better than Shelden.

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Smoove can play your type of 4. But only if we have a center that has size and can bang. We don't have that. So what is your plan? Things should stay the same?

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We are going to need an upgrade at center whether we play Smith or Shelden at the PF position. But even now, I'd rather Smith play there as he can actually enforce and control the paint more with his blocked and altered shots. He can do this more when playing the PF position as opposed to the SF position.

[TroyMcClure]

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So in other words, you believe Dirk should be an SG? Although he can't hang with 2's, he plays like one. That is the point you are making and it's not true.

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Dirk is 7'0". That invalidates your argument on that front. Find a better example of what you assume I think.

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Smoove has improved in posting up, he's already at least as good or better than Shelden.

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I disagree. I think Shelden needs more opportunity. Keep in mind I think he sucks, but he's got a much better post game than Smoove. In my opinion, of course.

I don't think Josh will ever be a traditional 3 or 4. Either way, he needs to step it up mentally on the defensive end. I think Shelden needs to play and we need to dump Zaza.

By the way, we ran my lineup the other night. It looked pretty good.

[AtLaS]

I guess we can agree to disagree, but I'm sticking with this argument.

"It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is."

[Diesel]

Yeah, I saw it...

Later on, he tried for a charge attempt and stood there looking stupid while Payton passed around him. The point is that time on the court will help Shelden too!! For all the talk about being NBA ready, there's a learning curve for every player that suits up in the NBA (period) only PT will help you get through that learning curve quickly.

[Lascar78]

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Dirk is 7'0". That invalidates your argument on that front. Find a better example of what you assume I think.

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No it does not. Smoove is 6'9" 240 and growing. Those are ben wallace numbers, not TMac/Dez Mason numbers. The point is that just because your game doesn't look 100% like a prototype PF from 50 years ago doesn't mean you're not a PF. Smith has the body of a PF. Tim Duncan and Jermaine O'Neal are back to the basket PF. Dirk Nowitski and Vladimir Radmanovic are perimeter jump-shooting PF's. Josh Smith is a young raw PF who likes to shoot perimeter shots and drive, and is learning how to score in the post.

Once again, the fact that he doesn't have a refined prototype PF game doesn't mean he's not a PF. He doesn't have a refined prototype SF game either. What he does have is a PF body, a desire to be in the post on D, and an advantage on offense when he plays slower PFs as opposed to faster SF's. He is a raw PF with a bit of a combo game.

[Diesel]

If you watch the way Shelden is used, he's used in a very similar way that Smoove was used... High post and midrange close to the wings.. Why? Woody changed his whole offense to accomodate Smoove playing the 4. Remember last year, Al played the 4 and he really played the 4. Al would set up in the low post, get his lunch and go to work... He would post up a lot. Smoove doesn't. Smoove just started some moving post up moves, but he doesn't have the footwork (yet) to be a post up PF. Based on the way he plays defense, I don't think he understands the low post all that well anyway. With his jumping ability, he ought to be immating Shawn Kemp who could post up anybody and could drive the lane too. Instead, Smoove's offense is a remake of AK-47's.. Whereby he waits in the midrange for a shot.. almost Glenn Robinsonish..

[Diesel]

You can afford to change around players and move them out of position if you have other people to bring the same skillset. We don't. We don't have a low post defender or offensive player when Smoove is playing out of position at the 4. We misraebly become a team of Jump shooters.. Even with JJ. That's why teams love to break us down into a halfcourt set. They do it consciously and play a zone because they know that we do not understand how to break a zone with good passing, We do not have a low post scorer, we are not a good shooting team... so we will just either drive and foul or clank....