Smoove is no 4!!!!!!!!!!

[AtLaS]

This is what you said Troy.

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You are making your whole argument on the "Smoove can't hang with 3's" thing. You are disregarding the way he actually plays basketball.

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Dirk plays almost EXCLUSIVELY like an SG, he's just seven feet tall. Obviously "Dirk can't hang with 2's" which is why he doesn't play there. If Dirk could hang with 2's he'd damn sure be a 2.

It's the EXACT same scenario with Smith, he can't "hang" with quick SF's, that's just fact, and it's been proven.

Lateral quickness is not something easily improved upon, improving judgement on post defense IS something that can easily be improved upon.

[exodus]

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I guess we can agree to disagree, but I'm sticking with this argument.

"It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is."

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This argument makes a lot more sense than..

"I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket".... unless they are 7 feet like Dirk.

[Lascar78]

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You can afford to change around players and move them out of position if you have other people to bring the same skillset. We don't. We don't have a low post defender or offensive player when Smoove is playing out of position at the 4. We misraebly become a team of Jump shooters.. Even with JJ. That's why teams love to break us down into a halfcourt set. They do it consciously and play a zone because they know that we do not understand how to break a zone with good passing, We do not have a low post scorer, we are not a good shooting team... so we will just either drive and foul or clank....

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Ok. Well now we're talking. I agree to some degree, but Smith is still a 4 to me.

What you're talking about is whether the Josh Smith kind of PF meshes well with the other players we have, which is a different argument from whether he's a PF or not. I agree that Smith needs to focus on his man defense in terms of not letting his man get position and biting on fakes. I think this problem does look a lot worse than it is because of the black hole of inexistence that we have at the center.

I also have been saying since early last season that they should be forcing Smith to play in the post to develop his moves down there because we need a post scorer. Smith has been pretty successful when we put him down there, he just is hardly ever down there. If Woody had forced him down there last year, he'd be pretty damn comfortable by now and could start mixing it up with the outside stuff.

Smith has the body of a PF and can be a very successful PF, even though he'll always be a tweener to some degree. The real problem here is that it seems that other than reigning in the 3s a little after 2.5 years, it's pretty much Smith doing whatever he wants out there instead of a coach grooming him and helping him develop the skills that fit both his body and our needs.

[TroyMcClure]

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This is what you said Troy.

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You are making your whole argument on the "Smoove can't hang with 3's" thing. You are disregarding the way he actually plays basketball.

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Dirk plays almost EXCLUSIVELY like an SG, he's just seven feet tall. Obviously "Dirk can't hang with 2's" which is why he doesn't play there. If Dirk could hang with 2's he'd damn sure be a 2.

It's the EXACT same scenario with Smith, he can't "hang" with quick SF's, that's just fact, and it's been proven.

Lateral quickness is not something easily improved upon,

improving judgement on post defense IS something that can easily be improved upon.

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You are missing the point. Dirk posts up a lot. He also has no ability to guard on the perimeter on defense. He's 7 foot with bad knees. He has to play big on D. Smoove doesn't.

You are also saying that every sf in the league is "quicker" than Smoove and that he "can't handle" them. That is just dumb, to me. That's your whole argument.

[TroyMcClure]

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I guess we can agree to disagree, but I'm sticking with this argument.

"It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is."

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This argument makes a lot more sense than..

"I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket".... unless they are 7 feet like Dirk.

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His argument is made up of the "proof" in his head. I was simply trying to impress upon him the importance of posting up. Especially in relation to floor balance, spacing and rhythm.

You've offered nothing to this conversation. If you've got something to say, fine.

By the way, Dirk is in the post a lot. Not that I'm a Dirk Know-it-all or anything.

[AtLaS]

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You are missing the point. Dirk posts up a lot

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No you are missing MY point. Smitty posted up a lot, lots of SGs post up a lot.

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He also has no ability to guard on the perimeter on defense. He's 7 foot with bad knees.

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EXACTLY! This is why he DOESN'T play SG! Because he'd get killed on defense, as Smoove does with SF's. Do you get it? If Dirk could handle SG's on defense and was quick enough, he'd damn well play that position, because no SG in the league could even fathom guarding Dirk.

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You are also saying that every sf in the league is "quicker" than Smoove and that he "can't handle" them.

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While I didn't say "EVERY" SF is quicker, 2/3 or more of the league's SF's are. Did you not see all of our games the past 2-3 years? Smoove gets KILLED off the dribble by SF's, far worse than he gets posted up by PFs. He simply isn't quick enough to keep up with them. Smoove is athletic as hell, but he is not quick (laterally) at all.

And like I said, it's much easier to improve defensive positioning and mental errors guarding NBA PF's than it is to all of a sudden improve lateral quickness, especially when you are 6'9 and lanky.

[TroyMcClure]

You are basing all of your opinions on data gained from a poorly coached, disfunctional unit. I think that with a coaching staff, Smoove can play the 3. You don't. That's fine. All I know is, Smoove gets beaten on defense a lot. He also makes great passes and spends about 83% of his time on offense standing on the wing. If he is going to be there, then someone besides Zaza needs to be down low if he is going to be a 4.

He's getting beaten by 4's and 3's on defense.

On offense, they can guard him with whoever they want. Sf, Pf, C, Sg...whoever can match up the best at that moment.

Couldn't a team guard Smoove with a "quick 3" and leave their 4 on Marvin? They sure could. Keep in mind, Smoove will not be abusing this mysterious smaller, quicker sf in the post. So what happens then?

[TroyMcClure]

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No you are missing MY point. Smitty posted up a lot, lots of SGs post up a lot.

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Not ours. Someone has to do it. It's not Joe.

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EXACTLY! This is why he DOESN'T play SG! Because he'd get killed on defense, as Smoove does with SF's. Do you get it? If Dirk could handle SG's on defense and was quick enough, he'd damn well play that position, because no SG in the league could even fathom guarding Dirk.

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You are talking about a 2 to 3 position defensive slide for Dirk to guard a sg. Smoove is 1 to 2. Dirk can play 3,4,5. You are talking about 2,3,4,5. Smoove can slide far more effectively than Dirk on defense. At any given time Smoove could guard any player on the court. The same can't be said for Dirk.

[AtLaS]

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I think that with a coaching staff, Smoove can play the 3. You don't.

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I'm not saying Josh Smith can't play the 3. I'm saying that with his attributes he's better fit for the 4.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Reason Smoove struggles on defense is his own fault and it's unbelievably frustrating.

The reason is because when his man is posting him up he lets up a little so he can go for the block. He does this every freaking time and it usually results in an easy bucket or a foul. He's got to stop doing this. He's strong enough to put a body on a guy and just contest the shot but he chooses not to

It's got to take a coach to make him change those ways or he'll never change. It's nothing wrong to go for a weakside shotblock or go for the block when his man gets by him. But don't let the guy by you so you can try for the block because more times than not bad will come out of that than good.

[exodus]

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I guess we can agree to disagree, but I'm sticking with this argument.

"It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is."

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This argument makes a lot more sense than..

"I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket".... unless they are 7 feet like Dirk.

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By the way, Dirk is in the post a lot. Not that I'm a Dirk Know-it-all or anything.

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No he doesn't. You just made that up so your "pf plays with his back to the basket at least 50% of the time" comment doesn't look so stupid. In fact Dirks shot selection is almost the exact same as JJ.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06DAL12A.HTM

Dirks idea of posting up is posting at the top of the key and then facing up after he receives the ball. Part of being a post player is fighting to establish good low post position which Dirk hardly ever does because he doesn't like contact.

[Diesel]

I agree. I think a couple of big man camps and working with a big man who can teach him to play good positional defense and working in a better defensive scheme will help Smoove. IF you want Smoove to play 4, especially defensively, Smoove has to learn the nuiances of positional defense... the footwork, the work done before the ball comes in. To me, Smoove is so busy trying to get in position to block somebody's shot, that he doesn't do the work that is needed before the ball comes in. That's the hallmark of a Sf not a PF.

[TheDude]

if my options are Josh at 4 or Josh shooting jumpers at the 3, then he's my 4.

[DJlaysitup]

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if my options are Josh at 4 or Josh shooting jumpers at the 3, then he's my 4.

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Agreed DocH...there's no use in making comparisons to where Josh would play on an imaginary team that we don't have.

on a perfectly set up team he would be looked at as a 3/4 tweener I guess...but in the context of what we have, he is obviously our best 4.

[Diesel]

The problem is that that's not your option. YOur option is Josh shooting 3s weather he plays 3 or 4... with the addendum that you can have a 4 who knows how to defend the post or one who doesn't. A continuous layup drill or at least an atempt to stop the layup drill.

[AtLaS]

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The problem is that that's not your option. YOur option is Josh shooting 3s weather he plays 3 or 4... with the addendum that you can have a 4 who knows how to defend the post or one who doesn't. A continuous layup drill or at least an atempt to stop the layup drill.

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Are you saying it would be easier for Smoove to improve his lateral quickness to guard SFs, rather than improve mental mistakes when guarding 4's?? If you are than you are way off.

[Jdawgflow]

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That's the hallmark of a Sf not a PF.

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You could also say that is the hallmark of a young player who has not played that much in the post growing up. That still does not mean that he wouldn't be better suited for the 4, which I and many others here believe (based on his skillset).

[TroyMcClure]

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I guess we can agree to disagree, but I'm sticking with this argument.

"It has been PROVEN for 3 years that Smith can't keep up with quick SF's, nor is he quick enough to beat them off the dribble. It is much easier for Smoove to correct mental errors of guarding post up PFs than it is for him to improve his lateral quickness to guard SF's. Lateral quickness is tough to improve, especially when you are 6'9 and really lanky (perfect body for a PF) as Smith is."

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This argument makes a lot more sense than..

"I consider a 4 as someone who plays at least 50% of the game with his back to the basket".... unless they are 7 feet like Dirk.

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By the way, Dirk is in the post a lot. Not that I'm a Dirk Know-it-all or anything.

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No he doesn't. You just made that up so your "pf plays with his back to the basket at least 50% of the time" comment doesn't look so stupid. In fact Dirks shot selection is almost the exact same as JJ.

http://www.82games.com/0607/06DAL12A.HTM

Dirks idea of posting up is posting at the top of the key and then facing up after he receives the ball. Part of being a post player is fighting to establish good low post position which Dirk hardly ever does because he doesn't like contact.

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Which is it, Ex? I made it up, or Dirk's idea of posting is different. I make nothing up. By the way, you've assumed many things about me and been wrong every time. Maybe you should stop.

You are totally right about Dirk. I consider that being in the post, though. If you can "up and under", you are effectively "in the post". I'm just saying that I want a Malone,Brand, etc.. kind of pf. Also, Dirk really doesn't need to fight for position, as he is 7'0" tall! He can shoot over anyone in the world, Ex. The world!

Dirk does not dribble around and take "floaters" or j's after 6 or 7 dribbles. I don't care what you are talking about, Joe and Dirk are nothing alike. Aesthetically or otherwise.

Also, please name a "quality" 4 that plays on the wing 85% of the time and has no post up game whatsoever. Please do. From what you are saying there should be dozens of them, right?

Are you going to talk about Josh Smith?

You are old enough to remember what a post game is, I just want to see one again. Back in the day, all we did was a two man game with Smitty and Mookie, Smitty posting up, or Deke posting up. Simple, clean basketball. None of this dribble drive crap every possession. Inside out basketball, Ex. That's how you win. Someone needs to be there, with an actual post game. You know, the one Smoove doesn't and will never have.

[exodus]

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Inside out basketball

, Ex. That's how you win. Someone needs to be there, with an actual post game.

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Inside? I thought you didn't have to be inside to post up?

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I made it up, or

Dirk's idea of posting is different.

I make nothing up. By the way, you've assumed many things about me and

been wrong every time.

Maybe you should stop.

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So on the one hand posting up at the top of the key is posting, but on the other you have to be inside to post. Which is it?

Dirk almost never posts up inside, even when he has a 6 footer on him. JJ gets deep post position way more often than Dirk because of his strength.

If Dirk catches the ball at half court, with his back to the basket, is that posting up?

And what have i assumed about you and been wrong about? YOu mean like the time i posted the 1 on 1 bet on here and said you wouldn't take it, even though i was willing to spot you 8 points?

[TroyMcClure]

You just don't get it. Dirk posts at the elbow because he's tall and likes to shoot over people. Most pf's are shorter and thicker and need to bang a little lower. It's two steps from the elbow.

When Smoove is 7'0" tall, let me know.lol!

I'm talking about you repeatedly saying that you doubted I would respond since we won the game and crap like that.

In retrospect I should have taken your bet. I also pm'd you and told you that I would play, but not for money. You imply that I would not take the bet and your assumption was right. This is a lie, Ex. You know it and I know it. I did choose to guard you. I can't say the same of you. We won a few games together, blowouts in fact, and now you're trying to act like I don't know ball, or have any guts. Whatever, man.

Why don't you try scoring on someone who is 5 inches shorter than you next time you want to talk. I like the way you play the game and I thought you were a pretty nice guy, but you've got some attitude.

Why you chose to attack me and not talk about the thread topic, I have no idea.