The scarey thing is

[Guest Walter]

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But to say Marvin and Shelden are busts after one year for Shelden where he wasn't even healthy and Marvin's first year as a starter where he wasn't even healthy for the year, that you cannot get.

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I don't think the difficult to pin down word, "bust", is at issue. I certainly don't think anyone sees Diaw or Childress as a "bust". They do see them as poor selections.

The point regarding the later two lotto picks is (just like with Childress) that CLEARLY MW was the worst of 3 considered draft picks (Paul and Deron), especially when you consider Hawk needs, and SW, at least for every other team, was considered outside of AND far worse than the two considered prospects in Roy and Foye and that didn't stop BK from promising such a marginal prospect in SW without trying out anybody.

I will add personally, I believe SW will earn the "bust" label no matter how you define it. He's already marginalized as the most NBA ready prospect. In all my years I've never seen that happen so fast. The defense that "it's too early to tell" may work under some circumstances like a college freshman or a center prospect. It might work if it wasn't so evident that SW doesn't have the height, length, athletic ability, even skill set to be more than a marginal role player in this league. Hell, he blocks fewer shots than the average Sg!!! He almost has no place or business in this league. The "it's too early to tell" excuse certainly does not apply to him, especially in the context of all the other failed lottery draft selections BK has made and the importance of our getting it right. We can't afford to fail anymore certainly. Any desire to allow BK every opportunity under the sun to "succeed" despite repeated, multiple, inexplicable, franchise d@mning (lotto) draft failures is made at the expense of the franchise.

It simply boils down to one question: Do you subject the Hawk franchise to BK's lotto draft Russian Rulette again when the last 3 consecutive trigger pulls have resulted in hollow-point shots to its head? Generally there is only one bullet in a six shooter. BK seems to have misunderstood the rules of the game, instead loading it for a gunfight. Ownership should exercise the same callousness in loading the gun pointed towards BK's job security...now.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Personally, I think it is silly to think that Chris Paul and Luol Deng would have made much difference in this team as it stands. Chris Paul has some solid players around him in New Orleans, and the Hornets are only a couple of games better than the Hawks right now.

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Remember JJ's gushing Paul comments last year? They were made publically despite his at least political, team loyalties to BK. I know your loyalty to BK extends into hiss rectum, but you can't pretend to be so basketball ignorant as above without further betraying your BK fecal-philia.

There isn't anything JJ wouldn't do to undo the draft decision of MW over Paul (or Deron for that matter) and he's played with both MW and Paul. Deng would almost equally impact us for the better. We built primarily through the draft and BK botched it. Wash off the brown stuff and start clean.

W

[exodus]

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My problem with BK at this point (as others have said) is that while he has drafted "good players," he has passed on players that were there for the taking who would have been better for the franchise. That can happen to any GM once or twice but I think BK has done that FOUR TIMES IN A ROW!

Barbosa or Josh Howard over Diaw.

Deng or Iguodala over Chillz.

Paul or Deron Williams over Marvin.

Roy or Foye over Shelden.

The thing about all 4 of those scenarios is that if you had taken the consensus pick off of the message boards that I visit who discuss the Hawks (Hawksquawk, Real GM, Access Atlanta for you old heads), Diaw, Chillz, Marvin and Shelden would have never suited up as Hawks. How can message boards get it right more than our GM? Ridiculous!

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That is the bottom line. The fans can judge talent in the draft consistently better than BK. If they did a fan poll before each 1st round draft pick and picked the player at the top of the poll each time this team would be in the playoffs easily right now.

[DrReality]

Has there been any word about the court date and whether it will be before the draft. Don't think it will be resolved by then, but the best we could hope for to be done quickly is to reach a settlement. If nothing is done, no matter what the draft brings, we still have that hanging over our heads.

[Packfill]

Well, Indiana lost again tonight and Minny is winning big. Alas, it appears Indy is on its way to a bottom 10 finish.

[Dejay]

BK couldn't say that he didn't have the high draft picks to get players. This team would be playoff contenders TODAY if any two of those guys (CP/Deron, Josh Howard, Roy, Deng/Igoudala)are on the roster. That's been the most damning of BK's tenure here; he was supposed to be this scouting/personnel guru when it came to evaluating talent and the best he's been able to do was draft bench guys and role players with top-10 picks. When your team has missed the playoffs for the better part of a decade, screwing up on high picks like BK has done only makes it more painful to follow the franchise.

BTW, nice reference on the Access Atlanta forums. Those were the good ole days when we used to only complain about not advancing in the playoffs and why Ty Corbin is still the starting small forward. Sigh....

[Dejay]

When the fans get it right FAAAAR more often than the guy who is supposed to be in 'the know', what does that say about the person in charge? It says to me that he really doesn't know what he's doing and when you're in the position the Hawks have been in for the last eight years, you have to ensure the fans that he no longer makes decisions for the team.

Think about it for a second; this team has $13 million tied into four career backup point guards, which could've easily been avoided if Deron or Paul was drafted. Even trading down to get Jack or Felton would've produced more in terms of additional picks and/or a veteran who isn't completely washed up (see Wright, Lorenzen) than having to later break off $25 million to Paul's backup. That one move would've made the Hawks playoff contenders LAST YEAR, which would've prevented them from having the 5th pick, which would've prevented them from embarrassing themselves by picking Sheldon so high (he likely would've been available at 12-15, anyway).

Yet, here we are again, hoping that the ping-pong balls fall their way, knowing that they've gone snake eyes for the most part ever since the lottery system was enacted in 1985.

[Guest Walter]

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When the fans get it right FAAAAR more often than the guy who is supposed to be in 'the know', what does that say about the person in charge? It says to me that he really doesn't know what he's doing and when you're in the position the Hawks have been in for the last eight years, you have to ensure the fans that he no longer makes decisions for the team.

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Is there a single fan in the universe who would have promised SW @ 5 without trying either him, Roy, and/or Foye out!?! Unbelievably arrogant and incommpetent. Fired unceremoniously. Should've happened long ago. Fire him without a press conference. Fire him without a good-bye. Fire him.

W

[TexasPete]

Traceman, you make an excellent point that is missed too often about BK. When it comes to our awful draft history the Hawks have blown the OBVIOUS picks. We all knew Deng was the choice over Childress. If Deng had been taken it wouldn't have ruffled any feathers because it was no stretch.

After taking 2 SF's in that draft we needed a PG and lo and behold there were two GREAT prospects, both in the obvious top 4. But we take our 3rd consecutive SF.

This past year we need a PG (still) and we have a shot a 2 excellent combo guards. We take an unathletic stiff based on a promise that should never have been made. And, we never even bother to work him out in person because BK is so sure he has his man. Wrong again.

No, the moves that BK made were not the obvious moves and it has burned the Hawks every time. The obvious moves would have made us a contender by now. For those who think that BK has re-stacked our team I will tell you he has done everything in his power to screw this deal up.

Traceman, the truth is that you and most other people on this board would have made better moves than our own GM. Because the best moves were the obvious ones.

[AtLaS]

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Think about it for a second; this team has $13 million tied into four career backup point guards, which could've easily been avoided if Deron or Paul was drafted.

Even trading down to get Jack or Felton

would've produced more in terms of additional picks and/or a veteran

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Felton was my favorite player in the 05 draft. That's what I wanted to do, trade to Charlotte for the #5 and 13. Staying at 2 I wanted Paul.

Felton is quietly putting up an impressive season, 14.2 ppg and 7 assists, how nice would that be right now.

EDIT: Add on to that he's probably the best defensive PG out of Deron/Paul.

[Guest Walter]

...make sure it doesn't cross the plate. Our draft competition has been swinging for the fences following BK. Can you imagine being Philly and Chicago 3 years ago, Utah and Charlotte 2, and especially Portland this year.

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No, the moves that BK made were not the obvious moves and it has burned the Hawks every time.

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If you are going to make the not so obvious move, you better GD be sure it's the right one. That would mean silly little things like trying out players and all before you promise a reach at 5.

Let me add, Roy's college coach called him an NBA Pg before the draft and Portland called him THE Pg (for summerleague) when they drafted him. Did BK miss the scouting report or is he just too arrogant to care?

W

[thescout5]

That makes me even feel worse. I compare this to when Detroit drafted Darko passing on some great players and we know Marvin was taken over some other great players. Marvin will be better than Darko but it was a MAJOR blunder just when the Hawks could least afford it.

MAYBE BK WAS HIRED BY OTHER TEAMS TO SCREW THE HAWKS EVERY WHICH WAY/ He's getting under table money and who suffers the fans.

I don't know who was worse BABCOCK OR KNIGHT both have to go down as 2 of the worst GMs ever.

[Guest Walter]

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...make sure it doesn't cross the plate. Our draft competition has been swinging for the fences following BK. Can you imagine being Philly and Chicago 3 years ago, Utah and Charlotte 2, and especially Portland this year.

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No, the moves that BK made were not the obvious moves and it has burned the Hawks every time.

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If you are going to make the not so obvious move, you better GD be sure it's the right one. That would mean silly little things like trying out players and all before you promise a reach at 5.

Let me add, Roy's college coach called him an NBA Pg before the draft and Portland called him THE Pg (for summerleague) when they drafted him. Did BK miss the scouting report passed out to Portland or is he just too arrogant to care?

W

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[exodus]

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Well, Indiana lost again tonight and Minny is winning big. Alas, it appears Indy is on its way to a bottom 10 finish.

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Seatle, without Allen, came back from 25 down to beat Minny. Seatle has every reason to tank, nothing to play for but pride.

Indy has had so many things go wrong for them the last few years but they always played through it and ended up in the playoffs. They are a proud, veteran team.

Indy played Minny not long ago and lost. They were without Oneal and Daniels and had just lost 9 straight games. They lost 86-81. At first glance it may have looked like they just mailed it in. Tinsley, not a noted scorer, dropped 37 that night. I don't think he was mailing it in.

JO played 42 minutes tonight, scoring 32. They aren't just going to lay down to ensure they get a draft pick.

[Guest Walter]

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Seatle, without Allen, came back from 25 down to beat Minny. Seatle has every reason to tank, nothing to play for but pride.

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Those young players are playing for jobs and opportunities. It's expected, can't blame them, and even if you're tanking it's tolerated to some degree. But the fact is sometimes when a big team loses its star other teams don't have a clue how to play them. Happened to us recently although we beat some patsies with similar injuries when JJ 1st went down.

W

[Dejay]

As I've stated a million times, unless Marvin becomes a 22/8 guy, BK will always be vilified for making him the #2 pick. Felton and #13 or even a future first-round pick looks like gold compared to waiting, praying, wishing, and hoping that MW will one day be everything that BK claims he would. There would still be at least $6.5-10 million available to bring in some REAL help in the post (sorry but Wright isn't doesn't count) because we wouldn't need Claxton or AJ on the roster.

And please don't get me started on the Sheldon pick. To promise a guy at #5 without checking out the merchandise is like buying a Jaguar on Ebay for $100K, only to be sent a poster of one.

[AtLaS]

Yeah I know, that's why I still think the Marvin pick was worse than the Shelden pick, just because we wouldn't have even been top 5 (possibly playoffs) had we taken one of the PGs in 05. But the decision to not workout and promise Shelden higher than ever was probably a worse decision.

Not to mention Marvin was so unproven, was worse than JS in high school the year before, and was the #10 rated HS prospect just the year before, choked in big games, had a losing HS record, didn't start, we already had 5 SFs on the team and 3 1sts at that position, and considering our dire need for a PG. It's 100% and completely indefensible. Anyone who defends the logic of that draft pick should schedule a CAT scan within the next month.

[Seano]

BK also needs to be held accountable for not getting better protection on the picks we gave Phoenix- if not lottery protected, then at least top 8 protected. This top 3 business is ridiculous. It is stupid now and it was stupid at the time. I fail to understand why Knight didn't play hardball. The Suns really had no choice but to trade Joe, I mean they were totally backed into a corner as far as that whole situation went. It was just like the Iverson thing...the player was completely unhappy and wanted out at any cost, and when it gets to that point where the player is that unhappy and that adamant about needing to be out, well then you have to trade him or you're going to have a miserable player on your hands, and that ain't good for anyone- least of all the team. And Joe expressly wanted to come here, of all places....

So Knight held the upper hand all the way there, and he blew it, as he really, really, REALLY should have demanded better protection on that pick. At least that's how I see it. I think that was a terrible mistake and one that could really come back to haunt us for a long, long time.

[Diesel]

DAMN KB??

Not you? How can you dare talk about BK passing on Paul when you were such a Marvin Jock rider? YOu even said that Marvin was the next Jordan???

:smileypulldownsunglasses-xENo:

[Seano]

Diesel, what is up with all this phallic imagery in your avatar? Are you trying to tell us a like suttin suttin? Hmmmm?

Either way, it's ok buddy. You'll still be aces with me. So if you need to bust down that closet door, you go girl! I will support you all the way.