Premium Member Diesel Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Those are anti-tank missles... But it's interesting to see where some minds are?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasPete Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I can't believe that BK didn't get a better deal with Indy this year on our deal. The man is a lousy poker player. If Indy insisted on protection BK should have told them to take a hike and found a better deal. Instead, because Indy is so far in the tank we look left out in the cold and we still have glaring holes in the roster. We need to groom a young PG in the worst way. And our defense in the paint doesn't exist. Why did we make the AJ deal? Come on, he is alright but we gave up an early 2nd rounder in a deep draft and we add to the glut of bad PG's already on the roster. So, we may win an extra 3 games with AJ? All that did was give us fewer ping pong balls. This organization is just stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators macdaddy Posted March 28, 2007 Moderators Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Exactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Sothron Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Yes, damn Pete Babcock for all those great 50+ win teams he built from scratch. Damn him for getting us within the Jordan Bulls era from probably making the Finals two times in the 90's with that era team. There's no comparison between Knight and Babcock. Pete was worlds better than Knight. He at least could keep us in the playoffs and build good, solid teams. Knight is putrid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Yes, damn Pete Babcock for all those great 50+ win teams he built from scratch. Damn him for getting us within the Jordan Bulls era from probably making the Finals two times in the 90's with that era team. I agree. In light of present circumstances, it's ironic to think that most of us complained about Babcock to the extent we did. Granted his drafting record was absolutely terrible, but despite that handicap the man was able to actually put a functional team out there on the floor- and not just functional, but sometimes a very, very good team. He could never get over the hump, but really no one else in the East could either. First he had those powerhouse teams in Detroit to contend with, and then he had Michael and the Jordannaires. That's a tough order of business right there.... So in spite of all the playoff disappointments in the Babcock years, I still look back at that time as somewhat of a 'golden era' for Hawks basketball- which is pretty sad. But that's what Billy Knight has reduced us to. Pete Babcock was by no means a great GM (mainly because of the drafting fiascoes), but in comparison to BK he was a fricken genius and those were the good old days for the Atlanta Hawks franchise. Even now, I would take Babcock back in a heartbeat over Billy Knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Yes, damn Pete Babcock for all those great 50+ win teams he built from scratch. From Scratch?? WTH??? What are you talking about? Those teams were the product of Kasten's work... when he REALLY built championship quality teams from scratch. The best thing that Babcock ever done was trade for Deke and Hire Lenny. AND I give him credit for that. But when you consider all the missed opportunities in the draft... Without the draft, your future is shot. Bad trades. and Last but not least Trading Dominique in the middle of what could have been a championship season... Babcock gets the gas face!!! That's a white rapper reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Sothron Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I don't know what a gas face is and I'm scared to ask... But as to what he did as a general manager, how quickly we forget he signed Dikemebe when NO ONE thought he was going to Atlanta. And how did he have the cap room to do that? By trading Nique. What people forget is that Babs WANTED to resign Nique but after Nique's Achilles tendon tear he was NOWHERE as good as he used to be. Nique wanted to be paid like a superstar and he simply wasn't anymore. Look at Nique's career post 1994. Its horrible. I mean, I love the guy, we all do, but he was HORRIBLE after that. Babs knew he couldn't let warm fuzzy feelings ruin our cap room for years. Especially after we were already stuck with Kasten's blunder of Jon Koncrap. So Babs traded Nique, saved us cap room and used it to sign Deke. There is NO CONTEST who was more productive after 1994 between Deke and Nique. Babs also traded an aging Kevin Willis for Steve Smith and Grant Long. He traded a COMPLETE bum in Rumuel Robinson for Mookie Blaylock. He traded nothing to get Christian Laettner who before he stabbed the team in the back was an All-star and actually looked like the player he was back at Duke. Babs also hired Lenny. He had Ty Corbin on our team who ranks with Charles Oakley as the BEST team defensive player I've personally ever seen. When you talk about "glue" guys I always think of Corbin and Ehlo and (earlier) guys like Battle and Cliffy Levingston. But anyways. Babs did a lot of great things for this team, I could keep posting them, but people only want to dwell on the bad drafting record and the Kruger hire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I give him credit for the Deke signing.. and in my mind, the JJ signing is equivalent to the Deke signing. Quote: What people forget is that Babs WANTED to resign Nique but after Nique's Achilles tendon tear he was NOWHERE as good as he used to be. Nique wanted to be paid like a superstar and he simply wasn't anymore. Nique was still the leader of the Hawks team that had just demolished Houston and NY on it's way to a 14 game streak. Nique also had a few more good years to play. The point is you don't make big moves when everything is working. Especially not trading for a player with no guarantees if he will be back. Go back and read what Babcock said then. He said that they knew that Manning would probably not resign when they made the trade... HUH??? HUH??? Quote: To lose Danny Manning is difficult enough. The Hawks say they were prepared for this abandonment. "In-house, we asked ourself the question, 'Would we do this if we knew Danny would not be back?' " said general manager Pete Babcock, describing a pre-trade scenario. "It was unanimous on our staff that it was worth making the deal. HUH?? Quote: So Babs traded Nique, saved us cap room and used it to sign Deke. This is a bad attempt to revise history I'm sorry to share with you this but trading Nique did not create financial room to sign Deke. In fact, we quickly (in Babcock knee Jerk fashion) trade our first rounder for Kenny the Snake Norman which sucked up about as much room as we were going to spend on Nique. Look at the contracts Nique took after the trade... They were not even close to what he was making with us. Moreover, the TRUTHis that we traded Augmon and Long to Detroit for 2 first rounders in 2000 (Babcock's big plan)... in order to make the room for Deke. Mind you this is after we traded Kevin Willis for Smith/Long.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Sothron Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 You are the one trying to revise history. They offered Manning a six year (IIRC) contract to stay in Atlanta and he spurned us for a one year/one million dollar deal in Phoenix. Where he proceeded to tear his ACL in both knees. Hah! Are you seriously telling me that Nique had "several good seasons left in him" after 1994? Go look at the numbers. He was a shell of his former self due to the Achilles tendon tear in 1991? that effectively ruined his career. I talked with Babs personally and had emails from him where he said that Nique wanted a (in today's terms) MAX contract to stay in Atlanta and NO ONE associated with the Hawks front office felt he was worth it. So Babs was faced with letting him walk or trading him for a younger player who wasn't great but was good (at that time). I totally agree with you in retrospect we should have kept that team together and just let Nique walk to sign Deke. But that's hindsight on top of putting an alternate history on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted March 28, 2007 Moderators Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I do have to agree with Diesel that Babs didn't build anything from scratch. He inherited a talented veteran team and did a great job turning over some pieces on the roster to keep the team in the playoffs year after year without a real let down until the core corroded through lack of development of young talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Sothron Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Babcock took over an aging squad and turned it into the core of a team that went to win fifty games plus multiple times in the 90's. If there wasn't the Jordan Era then that team probably would have made it to the Finals behind Deke/Smitty/Mookie. Do you disagree with that? Or that Nique post-94 was a shell of himself? Or the other things I posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted March 28, 2007 Moderators Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Babcock took over an aging squad and turned it into the core of a team that went to win fifty games plus multiple times in the 90's. Babcock inherited a team with some valuable veteran pieces and a superstar to build around. That is far more capital than building from scratch. Guys like Kevin Willis and Doc Rivers were attractive pieces and the cornerstone of the franchise was already there. Quote: If there wasn't the Jordan Era then that team probably would have made it to the Finals behind Deke/Smitty/Mookie. Very doubtful. I would have loved to have seen us get the chance to do that but look who actually eliminated us in the playoffs during those years with Dikembe and when: 1995-96 (Last year pre-Deke) Eliminated 4-1 by the Magic in the second round of the playoffs. No Bulls and not close. 1996-97 Barely won the first round series over the Pistons, 3-2. Lost to the Bulls in the second round 4-1. The Pistons series does not indicate a team ready to sweep the East but for the Bulls but I would have liked to have seen it. 1997-98 Lost first round to Charlotte Hornets. No Bulls and we still lose early. 1998-99 Barely beat the Pistons 3-2 in the first round. Swept by the Knicks 4-0 in the second round. No Bulls and we are swept out of the playoffs. 1999-00 The destruction of the team has begun. We go 28-54. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroyMcClure Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I don't really know if those guys were as tradeable as the pieces we have now. We had a basketball team then. We have basketball players now. Quote: Lost to the Bulls in the second round 4-1. When we won the first game in Chicago...Man, that was sweet. I thought we were going to take them out. I really believed in our guys then. I miss that. AHF, I think the main point is that no one beat the Bulls. The Magic were pretty good and the Knicks were too. Jordan did lose to the Magic in 95'. He always gets a pass because he only played a half year. I remember calling Jordan's first game winner after coming back... They inbounded 3/4 court, top of the tv set going left to right, something like 12 seconds left. Jordan dribbled to to the right elbow and sank a j over Smitty, I believe. I hated the guy, but you had to respect his greatness. By the way, anyone see the last game in the Omni? I was at the last win there against the Pistons. I remember Jordan got the last dunk in the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 as far as a court date, i know of none. i presume the case has already been orally argued to the court (the only potential court date under normal procedures), or just submitted on briefs. the appeals courts decide cases when they get good and ready, not before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Babcock inherited Nique in his prime. Kevin Willis as a Youth. Big Dog in before prime. Doc Rivers in his prime. Spudd Webb, Koncak and Moses Malone (after the collapse of the Malone/Theus/Nique failure...which some say Babcock advised)... He then took those guys who were let Malone leave and saddled down Nique and the gang with Bob "I Can't coach my way out of a paper bag" Weiss... We were horrid. We got Augmon. Somewhere in there we got Adam Keefe(?)... Roy Marble comes to mind... Priest Lauterdale comes to mind... Then Babcock starts trading off pieces to what was a championship quality team. However, the draft really profitted us nothing. After Nique's injury, we got Lenny... things turned around.. Just imagine had we had Lenny instead of Bob Weiss?? Just imagine if some of our draft picks would have been developed. Babcock made some nice trades... but hell, look at what he had to trade. His best trades were the Mookie trade and the Laettner trade. At the same time he bogged us down with contracts that kept us from being competitive. For instance: Koncak, Rasmussen, Norman, Henderson, and Crawford comes to mind!! That's just off the top. When AOL sold the team, we were in debt, our team had won about 35 games, we had done 65 million dollars in contracts... That's ridiculous. That's not the mark of a good GM. Mainly Babcock never had a vision for what works other than putting his finger in the air and seeing which way the wind was blowing and "making sure our stars don't retire on us". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Sothron Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 lol Kasten and Kasten alone did that Theus team. Please don't try and pass off your opinion as "Some say" when its really "Diesel is making this up on 3/28/07 and trying to retroactively apply it to something twenty years ago". It would be hard to hire Lenny instead of Weiss when at that time Lenny IIRC was coaching in Cleveland still. I don't see how you can blame him for Crawford and Henderson. When healthy Crawdaddy was actually pretty good. The problem was that he was always injured. But even then we only gave him I think 2 million or so a year. That's chump change. Henderson BEFORE his big contract had actually *earned it* with his play. He played with heart and hustle. Once he got the cash baby that came to a stop. I'll never forgive him after Jason Walker got him to admit in an interview that Hendu didn't care for basketball and only was still playing for the $$$. What a chump. But Babs didn't know that then. All he knew was this kid had outplayed a freaking All-star in Laettner and had EARNED his starting job and the money. The team Babs got was getting old. He moved those guys for younger players that without QUESTION gave us a core that took us to the playoffs throughout the 90's. He fleeced people left and right to get Mookie, Smittie, Grant Long, Laettner etc. You can't just discount 10 years or so of playoffs and fifty plus win seasons. Its not being intellectually honest or fair to the man. You can criticize him for bad drafts, Kruger and the inability at the end to rebuild but all in all Babs was a good GM. He is LIGHT YEARS better than Knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traceman Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 I LOVE Marvin. He is probably my favorite Hawk. Now that he is here, I LOVE rooting for him and I am one of the few here who still thinks he will be an All Star caliber player in this league (20/7/2.5) in a couple of years. Still, he will have to be even better than that for me to say that he was the right pick over Paul and Williams when you take into account: 1) what Paul and Williams will likely be doing as well. 2) the fact that we DESPERATELY needed a PG. 3) PG and Center are the hardest positions to fill. 4) we had already drafted Diaw, Chillz & Smoove. As for Shelden, I never called him a bust either but assuming they both stay healthy, I can't envision ANY scenario under which he is considered a better player than Brandon Roy. I don't think we were really contenders for the 8th seed this year. We beat 4 horrible teams in a row AT HOME to get within 4 or 5 games of the 8th seed. That is not contending. Quote: The reason why we are on the outside looking in isn't because Marvin or Shelden have been dissapointing. It's because the same two positions that we went into needing in last year's draft PG and C. But if BK had drated Paul or Deron, we wouldn't need a PG right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traceman Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Personally, I think it is silly to think that Chris Paul and Luol Deng would have made much difference in this team as it stands. So you don't think a lineup of: Zaza Smoove Deng JJ Paul would have made "much difference" versus what we have now? Give me a break! That team would be made up of 3 players who have warranted All Star consideration over the last 2 seasons (JJ, Deng and Paul) and another one in Smoove who will likely warrant consideration in the near future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traceman Posted March 28, 2007 Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 get back then? Now, all we can get is SFs! It is like God finally answered our prayers for a SF - only 10 years too late! If any ONE of JJ, Smoove, Marvin or Chillz had been on the team with Deke, Laettner, Smiity and Mookie, we could have played with anyone. I remember that our old buddy Jaywalker used to always moan about the dredded "Ty Corbin three" when Ty would shoot a 3-pointer but step on the 3 pt line so that it only counted for 2. Still you are right - those were the good ole days. How I long for those "boring" Hawks teams that could never advance in the playoffs. Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member AtLaS Posted March 28, 2007 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 Quote: Quote: Personally, I think it is silly to think that Chris Paul and Luol Deng would have made much difference in this team as it stands. So you don't think a lineup of: Zaza Smoove Deng JJ Paul would have made "much difference" versus what we have now? Give me a break! That team would be made up of 3 players who have warranted All Star consideration over the last 2 seasons (JJ, Deng and Paul) and another one in Smoove who will likely warrant consideration in the near future. At this point, you can't take anything KB says in reference to BK seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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